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Author Topic: MH's ideal coil and voltage question  (Read 485023 times)

Magneticitist

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #255 on: May 13, 2016, 07:22:45 AM »
ok, now think about what would happen if you dropped a suitably sized magnet
down a pipe of pure bismuth.

now super cool the bismuth.

lmfao

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #256 on: May 13, 2016, 12:13:04 PM »
Can you have a fixed finite inductance from an inductor that has resistance=0 and capacitance=0
Yes

picowatt

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #257 on: May 13, 2016, 12:34:20 PM »
If the pipe is cooled down enough,so as it became superconductive,would the magnet still fall?

Think about that,and how it relates to the ideal coil,which is also made of many superconductive loops.

As well, think about the large number of inductors in use everyday all over the world made just that way...

PW

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #258 on: May 13, 2016, 02:30:05 PM »
Brad:

No!  No...

Please do not introduce an ideal pipe into the mix, ha ha.  My head is about to explode from all of the other ideal items we have already.

Bill

PS  No, the magnet would not fall as Lenz would be increased proportionally to the increased conductivity of the copper pipe.

Lol-sorry Bill :D

What about this-as we are talking about the magnet falling through the copper pipe.

Now lets say the leading field(the one on the bottom of the PM as we place it in the pipe) of the PM is the north field,and the trailing field is the south field. The magnet will induce a field in that copper pipe that apposes that of the magnet,ans so apposes the motion of the magnet. So just below the falling magnet,the copper pipe will be producing a north field--that apposes the motion of the magnet. But dose that mean that a north field is also produced just above the falling magnet--so just above the south field of the magnet,that wants to also appose the motion of the magnet.
Dose this mean that the copper pipe now has produced a mono magnetic field? :o--north below the falling magnet-pushing against the falling magnet,and north above the falling magnet-pulling on the falling magnet.

This is the way it would work with a shorted coil.
A north field approaches the shorted coil,and the shorted coil produces a magnetic field that apposes the north field of the magnet. Then if we turn the magnet around,and we pull the south field away from the shorted coil,then that shorted coil will produce a north field that wants to pull the magnet back toward it.


Sorry in advance Bill :D


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #259 on: May 13, 2016, 02:32:10 PM »
almost spit my mountain dew out at that one

At least your not drinking the cool aid ;)


Brad

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #260 on: May 13, 2016, 02:50:46 PM »
Kool-aid is good, as long as it is cherry flavour. ;)

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #261 on: May 13, 2016, 03:14:04 PM »
Kool-aid is good, as long as it is cherry flavour. ;)

We dont have cool aid over here--we have lemon aid of all flavours --is that the same?


Brad

poynt99

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #262 on: May 13, 2016, 03:16:25 PM »
If it is a flavoured powder you add to sugar and water, then probably same thing. ;)

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #263 on: May 13, 2016, 03:36:25 PM »
If it is a flavoured powder you add to sugar and water, then probably same thing. ;)

Oh no
Lemonaid is like coca cola or pepsi.
Sounds more like our Staminade--thats a powder you mix with water to get a fizzy soft drink.


Brad

tinman

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #264 on: May 13, 2016, 03:37:49 PM »
If it is a flavoured powder you add to sugar and water, then probably same thing. ;)

Have you tried our famous vegimite  Poynt?
You have it on toast


Brad

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #265 on: May 13, 2016, 04:29:38 PM »
The time constant is infinite.
Tau=L/R. There is no R,as it's an ideal inductor.
Tau=L/0 = infinity.
Good God, Brad!  - you are doing a mathematical analysis.  Your experimental skills mixed with that one will accomplish wonders.

Anyway,  you are correct that when R=0 then Tau=∞ , ...however Tau is not inductance.

Infinite Tau does not mean that current through an ideal inductor cannot change or that it is always constant (i.e. zero) ...like it would be with an infinite ideal inductor.
This is because if you insert R=0 into the formula for inductor's current  i(t)=(V/R)*( 1- (e^(-t*R/L)) ) you do not get a constant current function ...because there are two competing limits in this formula, one for V/R=∞ and another for (1-e^0)=0.   If you multiply them together you get ∞ * 0 ...:o

Which limit wins out or how the two limits combine requires higher level of math analysis.  Do you want me to go into it?

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #266 on: May 13, 2016, 04:43:59 PM »
.

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #267 on: May 13, 2016, 04:56:18 PM »
Tau has no bearing on whether current can/will flow or not. The effect it has is how "curvy" the rise of current is, relative to the timing of your test. With an infinite tau, the curve is going to be a straight line,
That is correct.

Making the resistance R=0 "turns off" the real component of impedance but leaves the imaginary part (the inductive reactance (X) ) unaffected.
Their magnitudes combine according to SQRT(R2+X2)

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #268 on: May 13, 2016, 04:59:56 PM »
It's because the shorted single turn copper coil is producing a magnetic field that apposes that which created it.
I agree and this can be observed in this this video.

If the pipe is cooled down enough,so as it became superconductive,would the magnet still fall?
Depends how large the inner diamaeter of the pipe is compared to the magnet.  If it is small enough then the magnet would bounce forever.
This video illustrates how a falling magnet behaves when it is released from the middle of a single shorted turn that has zero resistance.



P.S.
Again, I remind everyone that the magnitude of the current induced in a perfectly conducting ring does not depend on how fast that magnet is moving.

Also copper cooled by liquid nitrogen does not become superconductive, but the YBCO ceramic does.
Niobium metal becomes superconductive when cooled by liquid helium.

verpies

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Re: MH's ideal coil and voltage question
« Reply #269 on: May 13, 2016, 05:12:57 PM »
@Magneticist

You should look at that post of mine from another thread.