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Author Topic: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)  (Read 4054 times)

Offline pomodoro

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I've been interested in replicating the work of Mazuno, which was later attempted by Eugene Mallove and then JLN labs.  I'm about a decade late, but if the results achieved by JLN and others on his page are to be believed, this must be one of the easiest proofs of overunity of the heat kind. A little useless at the moment, since heat engines are so inefficient, nonetheless it is one way of proving that science has more to learn.  The great JLN page I'm referring to is here. http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cfr/

I've just built a small calorimeter, which logs temp , volts and amps to a PC for post processing.  it has passed calibration with flying colors.  I'm not going to bore you with fine details as most of us are already good builders of such apparatus, but here are some details, pics and a PDF of the results and calculations. The calorimeter is a small dewar flask with an oval magnetic stirrer. Temperature is monitored by a calibrated AD592 sensor in a glass tube. One of four  AD622 IN-AMPS take cares of zero and slope calibrations and sends the signal to a multi-channel 12 bit computer interface card. The other IN-AMPS will be used for voltage and current measurements.
Calibration has been done using a 5.18 ohm resistor is a test tube filled with parrafin oil. For this calibration, I attempted to measure the specific heat of water as well as its heat of vaporization. I used a precision multimeter for this calibration as the source voltage and current remained stable.
More results will be added as I begin to electrolyze solutions of potassium carbonate over the next few months.

The attached PDF has all the details.



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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2016, 08:46:13 AM »
Excellent!

All I can recommend at this point is to get rid of the clipleads, make dedicated hard-wiring connections and keep all wiring as short and direct as possible. And of course your instrumentation amplifiers should be in a well-shielded, grounded container. Once you start the plasma electrolysis process there will probably be incredible amounts of electrical noise generated by the apparatus, which will affect your readings and which you will want to eliminate and control as much as possible.

Keep up the good work and reporting!


Offline nul-points

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2016, 09:03:41 AM »
It's good to see people pushing  back at the boundaries of 'accepted' wisdom, so much has been built on incomplete knowledge in some areas and the original scientific mindset of 'question everything' is in danger of being replaced by 'the grant-money is everything'

Mazuno, eh?  Inspirational !  ...make sure you keep a large bucket of water nearby!   ;-)

Thanks for sharing your progress - all the best for a successful investigation

np

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2016, 01:45:13 PM »
You were not exagerating about the noisy current TK!  Although the ammeters gave a nice  stable average current, the 100Mhz oscilloscope across a 1 ohm series resistor revealed the truth. I eventually tamed the beast to a visible DC level but still with some ripple. This required a layout quite different to that recommended on DIY sites. I'm still not totally happy and will try experimenting with a thermocouple ammeter.  If anyone still reading wonders what the fuss is, only a true RMS value of the current is of any use. Multiplying this value with the steady voltage gives the true electric power supplied to the cell. Most ammeters will give some filtered value for the DC current, even when very noisy, but this value depends on the filter's RC constant or the response time of the needle for analog meters. This value  could be very close or quite far from the RMS value.  Many of the internet replications seem to have trusted their budget multi meters for their calculations. I'm sure expensive meters designed for such measurements will do a great job, but beware of the cheaper stuff (like mine).


Offline pomodoro

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2016, 04:54:49 PM »
Just a quick update.
I've been working on this for a while and should soon have some accurate results. Volume is now 2L and the plasma arc is stable for 1 hour or more at over 100w.This is vital as Mizuno, a renound electrochemist, found excess energy only after about 1000seconds. RF is no longer a problem after I drastically improved the input circuit from that of Mizuno and JLN. If you have ever looked at JLNs power vs time graphs you will know how bad the noise can be. I found that the easier method of boiling and measuring the weight loss gives an unstable arc in this solution and I went back to the more elaborate temperature rise method, very similar to that of Mizuno. Currently I'm running calibration curves against a resistive heating element. The calorimeter is no longer a Dewer flask and heat loss at higher temperatures needs to be measured and compensated for.  When I'm satisfied that the temp vs time data can be accurately traced back to the input joules, regardless of the input power curve shape, the tungsten plasma will be tested. I'm aiming for a system that can't be faulted and can be replicated by others with similar experience.

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2016, 04:54:49 PM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2016, 10:10:00 PM »
Just a quick update.
I've been working on this for a while and should soon have some accurate results. Volume is now 2L and the plasma arc is stable for 1 hour or more at over 100w.This is vital as Mizuno, a renound electrochemist, found excess energy only after about 1000seconds. RF is no longer a problem after I drastically improved the input circuit from that of Mizuno and JLN. If you have ever looked at JLNs power vs time graphs you will know how bad the noise can be. I found that the easier method of boiling and measuring the weight loss gives an unstable arc in this solution and I went back to the more elaborate temperature rise method, very similar to that of Mizuno. Currently I'm running calibration curves against a resistive heating element. The calorimeter is no longer a Dewer flask and heat loss at higher temperatures needs to be measured and compensated for.  When I'm satisfied that the temp vs time data can be accurately traced back to the input joules, regardless of the input power curve shape, the tungsten plasma will be tested. I'm aiming for a system that can't be faulted and can be replicated by others with similar experience.

Best of luck to you.  I am impressed on how you are being careful of the measurements on your experiments.  I look forward to hearing of your results.

Bill

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2016, 12:12:37 PM »
Things are still looking good.  I've just built a few gadgets to help me record the data accurately. I was having trouble recording the current through a shunt and into the DAQ, even though I used an isolation transformer for the variac. A few mV make all the difference. So, I built a high quality isolation amplifier, which works a treat.  After one hour there is no drift and noise is just 0.3mV.  I've rebuilt the thermometer amplifier using a precision in-amp and precision resistor, with no variable resistors. The result is noise of only 0.03 degrees.  To power all this I built a precision 10.00V +/- 30mV low temp drift supply.  I was worried about picking up noise from the plasma, but with the temp probe just millimeters from the plasma, there was none.

Have a look at the noisy current below. This is the current everyone is measuring with their multimeters. Surprisingly, because it is DC with a lot of noise, the cheap multimeters gave some good values, but nothing beats good old circuit design to start with. 

Here is some of the equipment.

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2016, 12:12:37 PM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2016, 06:54:00 AM »
Update on the calorimeter. As you can see in the pics I was able to determine the electrical input heat from a heating element by monitoring the temperature rise of the solution. I was surprized at how well the calculated graph follows the real power graph. I deliberately changed the power quickly a few times, to simulate some crazy unstable input,  although I expect the water arc plasma to be much more stable. The second plot shows the errors between the two. Only at the sharp power transitions there is considerable error as the temperature has not equilibrated quickly enough. These are easy errors to spot in the graph. Overall it seems accurate to better than 5% over the whole temp range from room to boiling point.  The LENR plasma is reported to give 20% or more heat out compared to power in, so this system should be able to detect the COP >1 event easily.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2016, 12:57:29 PM »
Here is my first attempt at cold fusion using the plasma electrolysis technique. Voltage was started at about 150 and as time progressed I cranked it up to above 200. The whole process too about 3500secs. It obviously ain't too easy to get excess heat as described on the net. One positive result is that the system is not bothered by noise.

Online ramset

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 01:45:42 PM »
very nice indeed !!
there is nothing like good quality data !

do you have any Vid of system running ?
or Pics?

respectfully
Chet

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2016, 01:45:42 PM »
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Offline pomodoro

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2016, 02:36:26 PM »
Cheers Chet!
I'll post a pic or two soon. I've been avoiding pics as the system has evolved but is probably close to its final state now. 
The system is powered by a 5A variac, sometimes a 10A one, as the peak current into the caps is much more than that in the circuit. It goes into a rectifier and then into a 6800uF electrolytic cap to make DC Then  5A 500mH choke and a smaller electrolytic are used to keep the RF at the electrode end.  Current and voltage are measured before the choke., which has a 4 ohm resistance  Any remaining RF is removed using ferrite toroids and 100nF decoupling caps.
Temp was calibrated against a set of 0.01C mercury thermometers an is accurate to +/0.03.
Current is measured through a shunt and into the very high impedance isoamp. An old school amp meter is there for double checking.
The PC uses a PICO ADC-20 DAQ.

Offline pomodoro

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2016, 03:40:40 AM »
Anyone interested in replicating should have a gander over the stuff at http://jlnlabs.online.fr/cfr/ These chaps measured temp rise and also kept boiling the solution and measured weight loss. Keep in mind that some things were not done as well as they could have been in all of the setups! Some used sodium bicarbonate instead of potassium carbonate. Big mistake. Bicarbonates decompose into carbonate when hot, leading to a weight loss and therefore an apparent COP>1. Another mistake is measuring power directly to the electrodes. Big LC filtering is required as the power meters are not designed for the noise generated by both the arc and the rapid on off characteristics of the plasma  caused by the boiling liquid. The last comment doesn't mean the results were not correct but more checking should have been done. As I mentioned earlier I found that a cheap digital ammeter was giving the same current as a thermocouple ammeter did , without any filtering! The arc needs to glow to white heat - by the look of the photos on there. The electrodes don't last more than a few minutes in that state, rapidly being oxidized by the steam. There is no way the Mizuno experiment used as much localized heat as his electrodes lasted for hours. But I will try such a hot arc for the next run


Offline pomodoro

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Re: Accurate Replications and testing of plasma electrolysis (LENR)
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2017, 03:26:54 PM »
This is a wrap up of my research on plasma electrolysis. I never managed to detect any extra heat , the temp rise always matched the input to the electrodes. I noticed Mizuno was unable to replicate the excess heat himself. One thing that he did wrong was to change the power metering device Yokogawa WT110 to another type for the later paper. The results suddenly matched the power input. I get the feeling the WT110 was not capable of measuring the incredibly noisy current through the plasma. One of the secrets was supposed to be the use of an aged electrode but electrodes are consumed and the surface is always relatively new. My conclusion is that most of the sloppy stuff on the net is measured too inaccurately.

 

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