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Author Topic: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?  (Read 7340 times)

Offline verpies

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2016, 09:56:01 AM »
I thought besides the spin there is also the orbit.
Nobody serious believes in these electron orbitals anymore.

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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2016, 10:12:25 AM »

I have been trying to connect a theory I have about the gyroscopic effect of the electron spin while it's in orbit and it's connection to gravity and the self sustaining of the atoms energy.

the spin is related to gravity, through the 'handshake' it makes with the nucleus, as it approaches and moves further away.
there are two points around a single loop, when the spin of the electron and its' orbital velocity,
result in a speed greater than the speed of light.
relativity is violated. This results in a gravitational wave that distorts spacetime.

To understand this, think of a football spiraling, if it were thrown like a baseball "screwball".
Thus the actual orbit, is a spiraling tunnel/tube that encircles the atom.
at a point when the spin lines up on the inner or outer of the tunnel, velocities are greater than "c".
This distorts spacetime to a degree in which, the velocity remains "c".
This distortion propagates spherically, as a VHF wave. (600Ghz-10's of THz)
Though the propagation is in an outward direction, the distortion itself is towards the source,
thus the gravitational force vector is towards the disturbance.
the more atoms, the more "disturbances"

First - the gravitational impulse originates as an electromagnetic effect.
90-degrees to the magnetic, and tangential to the orbital vector of the electric force.
in the same vector as the electrons own' magnetic moment.
(yes the electron has a magnetic moment within the tube-shaped orbit, like a toroid)
it is 10^39 times smaller in magnitude, than the electric force, and nearly that much smaller
than the atomic magnetic moment itself.

Second - the gravitational distortion quantifies, the same as the magnetic and electric fields.
when you have two of them, you double your spherical radius, while the intensity of the field remains a factor of a square of the distance. (modern manmade magnets can actually exceed this value)

what separates the gravitational wave from the electromagnetic one,
is the distortion caused by hypervelocity.
there is a warping of space 90-degrees to both the electric and the magnetic forces.

What this means for a magnet, is that gravity emanates differently from magnets,
than it does from non-magnetized masses.
because of the planar orbits at or near the pole ends.
we're talking about + or - 10^-39 per atom
but experiments have shown that the center of gravity of a magnet,
is partially relative to the center of magnetism, not entirely on the 'true' center of mass.

I have no way to test this, but it would mean there is slightly more "gravity" at the ends of a magnet.
in a plane perpendicular to the face of the poles.
Which, Planar-Gravity is only known to exist in a few rare conditions.
perhaps It could exist in a finite region at the ends of an ordinary magnet, and we did not know it?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you point a magnet upright, say North side up, South side down.
near the top of the magnet, a large portion of the electrons are orbiting in a direction,
along the same plane, it would be the horizontal plane, in this example.
this direction determines whether the magnetic force is "north" or "south".
just like a coil.
"right hand rule"
at the bottom of the magnet, they are opposite in direction of rotation.
but also, a large portion of them, along the horizontal plane.

In the center, is a very thin line, where the orbital plane is vertical.
both clockwise and counterclockwise rotation occurs in this region.
and they arrange their magnetic vectors outwards, around a central axis of 0 dimensional size,
that runs pole to pole
these almost completely cancel each other out magnetically in this region.
this is sometimes referred to as the dielectric plane of the magnet.

inbetween these regions, the plane of the vast majority of the electrons, assume an alignment
in a transitioning range of vertical to perpendicular, that forms the magnetic gradient.

For this reason, when you place two magnets together the attraction is vectored towards the ends.
and when you place a magnet to a piece of metal, the attraction is vectored towards the center.

the size of a proton is an order of magnitude greater than the size of an electron.
there can't really be a gyroscopic force outside of itself.
its too tiny.

besides, the electron has a 1/2 spin, so the gyroscope is probably not the right analogy.




Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2016, 10:38:07 AM »
I can't draw this in 3d, so I make a stupid paint thing to show in two dimensions
a representation of the vector of the magnetic moments.

its not perfect and I got sort of impatient drawing little lines, but it does a good job at a visualization.

Offline Berto3

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2016, 01:41:13 PM »
The only gyroscopic effect I discovered with magnets where two the same magnets moving like
the pistons of a 2 cylinder boxer motor. In fact, this has nothing to do with magnetism but with mass.
So, the mass of two free flying magnets in opposite direction in a tube produces a gyroscopic effect.
This effect is even stronger when the reciprocating movement is in resonance with that mass.
http://overunity.com/16094/magnetic-mechanical-resonance-ideas/msg470475/#msg470475


Offline lumen

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2016, 04:15:04 PM »
You guys are all talking about this stuff but nobody is attempting to calculate any possible gyroscopic effect.  How do you know if a magnet is supposed or not supposed to feel like a gyroscope if you have no idea how large the effect is supposed to be?  For all you know it is there but the magnitude of the gyroscopic effect is insignificant.  Without attempting to crunch some numbers the discussion is meaningless.

But the gyroscopic effect would need to be larger than the magnetic field or the magnetic field would control the electrons mass.
I think the problem might be that there is no precession, without precession the gyroscopic effect cannot exist.
If you spin two gyro wheels in opposite direction on the same axis shaft, there is no gyroscopic effect because their forces cancel each other.

Maybe someone can explain why the electrons are not pulled into the nucleus of the atom.
If their speed is limited by "C" then the closer electrons could not increase their speed to counter the increased pull of the nucleus and would collapse into the nucelus.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2016, 04:15:04 PM »
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2016, 08:13:41 PM »
I do realize that modern physics throws away the true concept of 'spin' at some point, as with strange sounding things like "1/2 spin".  I guess it becomes a purely arbitrary concept, just a name or a label with no actual rotational energy.


That's OK but that's really saying, "that's just how it is" with no further reduction of the problem.  OTOH,  it looks bizarre to go back and forth with a sort of real vs imaginary spin as a foundation of reality.


I am tempted at moments such as this to wonder if reality is based on consciousness and it breaks down in its finer points, like small details in a video game, if you begin to think of that as real.


Maybe this involves a problem of scale.....

Offline lumen

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2016, 09:34:12 PM »
A big part of the problem is when you read something referring to electron spin, are they actually meaning orbit?
Like saying an electron spinning around the nucleus or the spinning electrons. It's not usually as well defined as it should be as electron orbit or electron spin.

My new experiment attempts to leverage the stability of a gyro against a magnetic field to provide endless energy like the electrons in an atom.
I believe that it may be possible for the two properties to react in a way to always restore any lost energy by gyroscopic precession.
Precession can always provide more energy than what a rotating mass requires to produce the precession, and a magnetic field can provide the force required for precession.
Between those properties a device would seem to be self sustaining.


https://youtu.be/Im2mNnWZ5Oc
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 12:41:46 AM by lumen »

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2016, 09:34:12 PM »
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Offline Meta

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2016, 07:31:17 PM »
The basic creative unit of the whole Universe is toroidal...its a curve, or spin of space. The Persian myth of the Flying Carpet is all about this curve. The first curve of space, I found, is the very first evidence of a alleged God in our universe. If you can find evidence of God before this first curving, let me know.

Ref: http://smphillips.8m.com

It is called Supreme Being by the Sumer (5000 BCE)

It is called Anu by the East Indian Veda's.

The first 2 of these is called God and Satan, by religion.

Thru multiplication by division there is nothing else in the Universe. It is jamb packed with Anu and nothing but Anu.

All Anu and clusters of Anu (meaning all alleged particles including electrons) act like gyroscopes because they are gyroscopic....they all spin and precess just like a gyroscope.

If you touch one or a cluster of them, like an electron, they will rise up out of their matrix positions, rotate 90 degrees to the force and travel, ie spiral around and down the wire, if they are in a wire....and exit the wire as electricity....just like a gyroscope does.

Offline Meta

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2016, 07:39:16 PM »
A big part of the problem is when you read something referring to electron spin, are they actually meaning orbit?
Like saying an electron spinning around the nucleus or the spinning electrons. It's not usually as well defined as it should be as electron orbit or electron spin.

My new experiment attempts to leverage the stability of a gyro against a magnetic field to provide endless energy like the electrons in an atom.
I believe that it may be possible for the two properties to react in a way to always restore any lost energy by gyroscopic precession.
Precession can always provide more energy than what a rotating mass requires to produce the precession, and a magnetic field can provide the force required for precession.
Between those properties a device would seem to be self sustaining.


https://youtu.be/Im2mNnWZ5Oc

There is confusion between orbit and spin....I never saw any orbiting electrons when I saw a electron micrograph of a matrix of atoms...all the atoms looked like fuzzy spheres with a light spot on one side and I assumed there is one on the other side of the sphere...a light hole and a black hole....and a energy spin on the inside, and the outside....called spin 1/2 in physics.

This I call spin...there are no orbits....thats a lie.

Spin 1/2 is said to be the mathematical inverse of spin 2, the very real concept of science which says that "an electron must spin two times for it to be detected again", which simply means that after the energy spins on the inside and then outside of such imaginary things as "electrons" the energy will have travelled 720 degrees around rather than 360 degrees, which led me to believe that our world is double what we know....ie, 1=2, 2=4, or 360=720. Half our Universe is invisible.

When you see that magnets dont act like a gyroscope, you are seeing clusters of Anu and they all perfectly offset or balance each other....it all cancels out to 0....spirals of positive electrons are moving perfectly against the spirals of counter spinning negative electrons...equals 0.

39,500 books read
40 yrs study

Offline lumen

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2016, 08:13:54 PM »
After some testing on the gyro device shown in my picture, I have found a simple modification that could provide a conversion of magnetic force directly into kinetic energy.
Maybe this is not the thread to be going on about this as I was showing this device only because it appeared connected to the topics path of gyroscopic spin and energy relationship.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2016, 08:13:54 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2016, 11:12:35 PM »
To understand the forces, placed on the atom by the electron's orbit,
I suggested using an unbalanced gyroscope.

Some of you may have played with a gryo that has become damaged.
if the rotor is scratched deeply, or dented, perhaps from dropping it.
You notice a 'wobble' that was not there when the gyro was perfectly balanced.

you can intentionally unbalance it, by adding or removing weight at a point around the circle.
The forces experienced here are similar to an odd number of electrons in the outer shell.
Now, if you add/remove an identical weight 180-degrees opposite to the first imbalance
you experience the forces of a pair of electrons in the outer shell.
as you add/remove weight in pairs, equally spaced, around the circumference of the wheel
you can simulate the effects of different atoms, with more and more full outer shells.
eventually, you reach a point when the imbalanced forces are equal, and the gyro will spin stable again.

This is about as close to a real-world simulation you can come using a gyroscope.

Keep in mind, as Milehigh hinted to,
the mass of the electron is so small in comparison to the mass of the atom as a whole,
that the forces are insignificant.

What happens to precession, when the gryo is placed on a heavy turntable?
If the turntable's moment of inertia is greater than the precession forces,
precession does NOT occur.
Yes,. in theory, the turntable "feels" the gyroscopic effects,
But it does not move, because the forces are too small.
If you now add rotational force, in the direction that precession 'would occur',
you will find that the "moment of inertia" is lowered by the precession force.

When considering the magnitude of the atom's mass, compared to that of the electron,
we find that outershell electrons (the ones that would add to the gyroscopic force of the magnet)
only represent a few thousandths of the total mass of the atom, be it iron, or cobalt, or samarium.
or whatever

If we knew just exactly where these forces were, within the magnetic mass,
there may be some test that could show a change in the moment of inertia along that plane.
However, these forces are in more vectors than we can reasonably handle, as humans, to analyze the problem.
360^360 or something like that...

To further compound this,. the electrons' spin causes the entire orbital path to vibrate inwards and outwards
from the nucleus.
like if you have a vibrating table top, and place the gyro on it.

now, the path of the gyro is oscillating through space, as it turns about its axis.

furthermore, even though the orbital paths in a magnet are restricted, and synchronized (aligned)
the spin of the electron still changes the outcome of the orbital path, within this restriction.
So, now you need to take your vibrating tabletop, and place it on top of a centered fulcrum.
perhaps a round fulcrum, to allow the tabletop to tilt in every direction.
so the horizontal plane, which represents the plane of orbit,
shifts within a range, off the horizontal axis.

So, we have a tilting, vibrating tabletop, with the gyro on it, and this gyro has, let's say
2 unbalanced points, equally spaced around the circumference. (iron)
remember the tabletop is much larger than the gyro
now we are getting closer to a physical analogy of a magnet.
if we place several of these tilting, vibrating gyros onto a single surface,
the effects of each individual gyro, will add and cancel with the effects of the other gyros
at different states of rotation, vibration, and tilting.
Now let's make this surface wrap around into a 3-d shape.
We are getting close, but we still need to account for the field gradient, and the dielectric plane.

Let us choose a "polarity", and a center of field.
If this 3-d shape were, say, a rectangle (like a bar magnet)
let us draw a line across the centerpoint.
because of the way we wrapped the flat surface, the gyros in this plane are facing the appropriate way.
if we isolate this plane into a single ring of gyros, this will represent our dielectric plane.
on one side of this plane, we spin the gyros in one direction.
on the other side of the plane, we spin them oppositely.

Next,. starting with the gyros on each side of the 'dielectric plane', gradually and progressively angle their
tabletops towards the poles. such that, near the dielectric plane, they are angled ever so slightly towards the pole.
and as they approach the pole ends, they are angled towards the pole.
Now we are starting to resemble some of the gyroscopic effects going on inside a magnet.

There one more thing we have to do.
which is restrict the degree of "tilting" the tabletops are allowed to do, partially at the pole ends.
and completely, along the dielectric plane.

[this is a very simplified analogy.
We actually need trillions of these 3-d shapes, each one a bit smaller, and placed inside one another like those Chinese dolls.]

after spinning, vibrating, and tilting for some amount of time, the imbalanced gyros will synchronize with one another.

If electronic gyroscopes are used in the construction, synchronization and consistency of RPM is resolved.
pi are square, and so our relatively large gyros can never rotate as fast as an electron.
 

The reason I chose a flat-sided 3-d shape, is because round magnets open the door for another type of energetic exchange (similar to gravity), which can significantly change an electrons energy, its' orbit, and even its' ability to STAY in orbit...  spherical magnets, or magnets with rounded side(s) exchange electrons regularly, ejecting their own out of orbit, and absorbing another from the environment. as well as photon emissions.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If we consider, the simplest of the base metals, Hydrogen.
We can "magnetize" a single atom, by containing it within a strong electro-magnetic field.
The magnetic moment can be measured as frequency-dependent changes in the field,
perpendicular to the orbital path of the electron.
By a reversing of this process, the field can be changed to control the planes of symmetry
this orbital path takes.
gyroscopic forces, if they existed in this state, would be dominated by the containment field.
However, the containing field itself, is analogous to the molecular bond that forms in H2.

When we examine a second atom, in the form of the hydrogen molecule, we find that one is "upside down".
Why? well, in short, the handshake between electrons sharing the same physical space, at alternating moments in time, can only take place in opposite rotational directions.
if they were both spinning in the same direction, the momentum of forces would the electrons to interfere with one anothers' orbit, making the bond unstable.
Another way to explain this is by the use of the magnetic moment.
repulsion and attraction of monoatomic magnetic moments result in the two atoms approaching
upside down from one another, just like when you put two magnets side by side.

The result is 2x the diameter of the magnet moment, and ~1/2 the field strength.
 weaker, because of the intensity of the field at the bond.
 It gives the electrons a lower energy, when bonded. (when observed from an outside perspective)

for this reason, monoatomic hydrogen is strongly magnetic, and hydrogen gas (H2 molecule) is weakly magnetic.
in a gas, however, the molecules are moving around freely, and their magnetic moments are not aligned with the other molecules in the gas volume.

further, H2 is considered diamagnetic. because it consists of two opposing dipoles.
when you apply a field against these two dipoles, in one vector:
it causes induction to occur, like electricity running through a loop of wire.
this induction is opposite to the vector of the applied field,
this is diamagnetism in its' simplest form.

Helium has two electrons, 180-degrees out of phase, and the transition period of the flux of each magnetic moment, causes partial cancellation. Thus the field strength of helium's electric and magnetic moments
is not two, like commonly assumed, but a value about 30-40% less than this.
varying within a range of electron energies that differs between the two electrons.
because of the way their paired orbit is locked, Helium also induces an opposing field, and is thus
also diamagnetic.

let's look at the next complex situation, Lithium.
here we have the double-electron, like helium, but an additional shell containing only 1.
dilithium forms a diamagnetic field, like the two examples above,
however naturally occurring 6Li, consists of 6 atoms, forming a bond.
This configuration, is paramagnetic.
when a field is applied, the induced field is in the same vector of the applied field.
observing the orbital directions of the outer shell electrons, there are 3CW, 3CCW
each neighboring pair induces a field opposite to that of the pair next to them,
resulting in 4 like fields, and 2 opposing fields.
= + 2 like fields.
the group of atoms becomes polarized along the magnetic vector, and a diamagnetic plane emerges
the two centralized atoms align their orbital plane with the magnetic vector.
counter-rotating, in a plane 90-degrees to the two at either pole.

This is the simplest form of a "magnet".
Now,. this configuration is not stable in 6Li, and as soon as the applied magnetic field is removed,
the group of atoms returns to a more stable (non-magnetic) state.
When two groups of atoms are together in a mass,
the dipole becomes more complex, but the mechanics remain the same.
[magnetically] centralized atoms orbit perpendicular to those at the polar extremities.

more complex metals, such as iron, also align in this manner.
But in stable configurations, that can self-sustain, after the applied field is removed.
Thus they are considered ferromagnetic.








Offline Eighthman

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2016, 12:54:47 AM »
Thanks for all the replies but I don't see any of them as getting at the essence of the problem.  In particular, once there's any net alignment of the spins, there should be an obvious gyro response, math or no math. 


http://gsjournal.net/Science-Journals/Essays-Mechanics%20/%20Electrodynamics/Download/5458


I don't endorse this guy's theories but I think pg. 3 might get close to what the answer must be.  A magnet radiates a field but a gyroscope doesn't.
You can put a bunch of gyros close together and they don't push or pull each other.  If magnetism is somehow the same thing as centrifugal force (some people seem to believe they are mathematically identical or something like that),  then that force must be 'folded' back on itself so that it can't radiate outward as a field. It only acts on its own mass...............





Offline lumen

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2016, 04:37:43 AM »
I am sticking with the idea that electrons both spin and orbit and there is no gyroscopic effect because when both the spin and the orbit is reversed, the magnetic moment is in the same direction but the gyroscopic effect is cancled by another electron doing the opposite.

Two of the same gyro wheels spinning in opposite directions will fully cancel any gyroscopic forces. So random selection of electrons spinning and orbiting in the same plane but random opposite directions can generate a combined magnetic field direction and still have no gyroscopic force.

It would be interesting if someone could get a rough calculation of what the force might be if "X%" of the atoms in a known size magnet had their outer electron creating a gyroscopic force, what force could one expect.






Offline Meta

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2016, 03:29:11 AM »
Consider this animation gif of what is called "spin waves".

Let's believe each of these precessing spheres are what your article refers to as the luminiferous medium.....there was an old word called Luminiferous Aether meaning matrixes and planes of these spinning vortexes and how they all work together in harmonic rythym. We can see all the vortexes of space all precessing (each sphere axis goes around in a circle). We can see all of the vortexes remaining in a relatively fixed position but if you look at it for a long time, you can see a imaginary wave, flowing over the matrix of precessing vortexes.....its not a real wave but it looks like it travels and communicates information from one vortex to another.......consider each tiny vortex as a gyroscope...consider each row has to be upside down to its neighboring rows, alternating polarities and the same holds for its neighboring planes of vortexes....for if they all were oriented the same, they would fly apart because of the like charge being repulsive

and thats the basis of creation.......two Anu moving clockwise next to each other, they grate together like two Indy tires when they touch, and you get repulsion....when two Anu are moving opposite, like meshing gears, one clockwise and the other counter clockwise, they can get closer and its called attraction......

See attachment


Offline verpies

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2016, 10:39:23 AM »
We can see all the vortexes of space all precessing (each sphere axis goes around in a circle).
@All

Notice that Meta writes about vortices of space ...not vortices in space.
IMO that distinction is essential to understanding how universe works.

We can see all of the vortexes remaining in a relatively fixed position but if you look at it for a long time,
Here he only writes about spatial positions. 
But every motion has two reciprocal aspects: space and time.  This is the reason we commonly measure speed as eg.: meters per second (m/s).
Fixating on the spatial aspect of motion without considering its temporal aspect is a huge omission.

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2016, 10:39:23 AM »

 

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