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Author Topic: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?  (Read 6307 times)

Offline Eighthman

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Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« on: April 03, 2016, 04:01:18 PM »
If you pick up a spinning gyroscope or any spinning mass, you will feel or see the effects of inertia and centrifugal force. The gyro will resist your efforts to twist away from the plane of its rotation.


OK, so why don't all permanent magnets do this? Do electrons have mass? Are they spinning? Are those spins aligned ( as the REASON WHY it has a magnetic field)? 


https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110405161715AAuefVm          I can't find any clear answer to this question. Indeed, it gets more weird as you look at it since some physics books claim that magnetism IS a form of centrifugal force.


I wonder if the answer to this question could open up some very important discoveries.

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Online kolbacict

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2016, 04:57:25 PM »
Quote
OK, so why don't all permanent magnets do this?

but perhaps some of them work as a gyro? :)


Offline lumen

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2016, 05:46:52 PM »
If the electrons generating the magnetic field were orbiting in the same direction as believed, one would think there would be some sign of a gyroscopic effect. Because there is no gyroscopic action one might wonder what is actually going on right?

One might also wonder why another magnetic field in the opposite direction does not stop the electrons orbit and the best it can do is cause it to spin out of alignment but never stop or dislodge the electron from it's orbit.

The atom's energy appears endless.

Offline Eighthman

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2016, 05:48:35 PM »
You can explain attraction and repulsion really easy - as vortices of spinning movement that push or pull towards each other.


However, this still leaves us with the basic question 'why don't these aligned spins cause the magnet to behave like a gyroscope'?


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2016, 06:35:49 PM »
You can explain attraction and repulsion really easy - as vortices of spinning movement that push or pull towards each other.


However, this still leaves us with the basic question 'why don't these aligned spins cause the magnet to behave like a gyroscope'?

I was not aware that a magnetic field is made up of moving electrons.  If this were true, then all you would need to do to generate electricity would be to place a magnet near a coil of wire.  We know that you must provide the movement between the coil and the magnet to get a current so, would this not mean then that the field is not made of moving electrons?

I believe that physicists do not really know what a magnetic field is made of...they know everything about how it responds in various situations but, I think the jury is still out on what makes up that field.  I, of course, could be wrong.

Bill

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2016, 06:35:49 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2016, 08:08:18 PM »
Quote
The atom's energy appears endless.

This is only because of our finite perspective.
eventually, it will die, or something environmental will cause it to change forms, either decay or procay
into something else.

Also, the electrons themselves come and go throughout the lifetime of the nucleus.

When matter forms, there are 6 parts that are generated from the aether.
4 electric, 2 magnetic.
there is a 99% chance that it will form into two stable groups of 3,
two electric particles, head to tail, and a magnetic particle bridging their other ends into a triangle.
each triangle being equal and opposite to each other, and they will both be annihilated into a burst of energy.

there is a 1% chance that one or the other will fail to form a stable bond.
When this occurs, the remainder may be set free to roam as matter, or anti-matter.
Since the conditions that allow for anti-matter to form from a group of quarks,
only generally occurs during the formation of matter,
if the matter fails to form, the anti-matter will also not form,
leading to a greater number of matter forming in our universe, than anti-matter.

the remaining particles eventually find other particles to collide with,
and form into leptons and other fermions and such.

each of these "stable" formations, can undergo a state of decay or elevation into a more complex bond.
Due to interaction with particles and other atoms.
The conditions necessary to prevent this are unachievable by human standards,
thus every nuclei and particle has a form of "half-life" that can be calculated.
not exactly the same as radioactive half-life, but the same form of statistical representation
of how long half of a sample will exist.

most stable atoms will be around much longer than us, the earth, our sun, and everything we will ever know about.
we could say that it seems endless, unless 'ended' by some outside force.

the energy contained in the nuclei is due to the interactions of both the electric and magnetic forces.
the first electric particle sends a signal at almost the speed of light, into the other electric particle.
think of these like two electrets in series.

the magnetic particle sees no "time", in the sense of what we think of as time.
what "is", within the magnetic quark, "is" throughout the quark.
So, when the signal from the electric quark reaches the magnetic, it is already presented as the tail end of the first electric quark. You can think of this as occurring instantaneously.
even though the physical distance is nearly 2/3 of the atomic radius.
This interaction triangle, presents an oscillation, or fluctuation to radiate from the nucleus.
At a wavelength equal to the 2x the atomic radius. (or the diameter of the nucleus)
[all atoms radiate.  They are only considered "radioactive", when they emit particles.]

At the same time all this is going on, the nucleus is spinning around, in every direction,
like NASA's manned gyroscope.
Distorting the space around the nucleus, as well as time (which resolves the Einsteinian problem stated above)

The electron, being an electric-type fragment 0.0001 of an electric anti-quark
has the opposite electric charge to the electric particles in the nucleus.
and is attracted to the nucleic electro-magnetic force
these types of particles move at nearly the speed of light,
because they are electrically charged, and have very small masses.
And because there is a dielectric field gradient permeating throughout all the space around us.
which gives them a velocity and vector, depending on which way they are facing, and the magnitude of their charge,
as well as, their mass. they do have some mass, which is why they don't move at exactly the speed of light.

It is moving so fast however, that it cannot ever reach the nucleus.
the outward forces of the orbital momentum are balanced with the attractive electromagnetic forces.

similar to what occurs with gravity in free space.
like our planet orbiting the sun.

This orbit, occurs at almost the speed of light.
We have a standing wave, the diameter of the nucleus.
and an electron orbiting at a radius
the rest is as easy as Pi.

around one loop, creates the Magnetic Moment.
The number of these moments, that fits into one second of time,
gives you the magnetic frequency of the atom.

normally, the nucleus is spinning around, as well as the electrons' orbit
is always changing, like the moon, except that its not always facing the nucleus,
the electrons 'face' spins around on its' own function.
so, normally, atoms are not "magnetized" on their own.

when you have several atoms, like in a chunk of metal
and we magnetize it.....
the nuclei are still spinning, not much changes there.
but the electrons synchronize with each other.
they repell one another most of the time, so when the orbit of one changes,
it changes the orbit of the one next to it.
they share the same space, at different times.
the strong field used to magnetize the metal, forces the electrons into the same orbital plane.
like if you have 1,000,000,000 gyroscopes on the same tabletop.
each with a tiny weight attached to them.
And then 1,000,000,000 more spinning oppositely, attached upsidedown to the same tabletop.

now, the weights are not synchronized, so the vector forces are cancelled out along the axis of the
dielectric plane.
leaving only vertical forces, up and down, equally cancelling each other out.

The polarization of the electrons' orbits, are spinning one direction at the north end of the magnet,
the are 90-degrees to this (in a 360-plane) near the dielectric plane in the center of the magnet,
and they spin the opposite direction at the south end of the magnet.

There is, therefore, no net gyroscopic force, resultant from the aligned electron orbits.

And, if there were to be set into motion, such forces.... (this can be done under discrete situations)
their magnitude would be 1/1856th or so of the total mass of the magnet itself.
and result in no net force, because of the moment of inertia of the larger mass.






Offline lumen

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2016, 08:57:32 PM »


The polarization of the electrons' orbits, are spinning one direction at the north end of the magnet,
the are 90-degrees to this (in a 360-plane) near the dielectric plane in the center of the magnet,
and they spin the opposite direction at the south end of the magnet.


I would think that in order to maintain the magnetic vector through the magnet that all electron orbits (or a high percentage) would be in the same direction and should in fact cause a gyro effect. But because the effect does not exist, there must be some other factor like the electron's spin direction.(different from the electrons orbit)

If the electron's spin was a factor, then it may be possible to have opposite orbit directions and still generate a field in the same direction. This would then eliminate any gyro effect from electron orbits because opposing orbit direction would be random.

I have been trying to connect a theory I have about the gyroscopic effect of the electron spin while it's in orbit and it's connection to gravity and the self sustaining of the atoms energy.




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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2016, 08:57:32 PM »
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2016, 02:32:00 AM »
Here's a standard explanation:


http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Core/Physical_Chemistry/Quantum_Mechanics/09._The_Hydrogen_Atom/Atomic_Theory/Electrons_in_Atoms/Electron_Spin


And the problem remains.  You get a magnetic field from a net (single) spinning electron.............but why not gyroscopic motion of the magnet? If you have two opposite spins, they cancel out and no field.   Weird.  I think Dewey Larson wrote a book in which he tried to explain all physics with forms of motion. To make matters worse, if I understand it correctly, quantum physicists try to deny that spin is real!

Offline Eighthman

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2016, 03:05:01 AM »
OK, sm0ky2, I'll bite.


Take one gyroscope and get it spinning.  Get another and spin it in the other direction.  Neither one wants to twist.  Stick one at one end of a stick and the other at the other end of the stick.  I think you now get a vertical stick that doesn't want to turn horizontal. I think they don't cancel out and get rid of the gyroscopic behavior.  Back to the drawing board?

Offline lumen

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2016, 03:21:08 AM »
I thought besides the spin there is also the orbit. If there are 2 electrons in a shell they will spin in opposite direction and cancel the field, but in the last shell if there is only one electron, it's spin will generate a field.

So the orbit would generate a much larger gyroscopic effect over an electron spinning on it's own axis and since the orbit can be either direction, it gets canclled.

If a magnet could be made to have all electrons orbit in the same direction it should have some gryoscopic effect also.
I would also think it would not be required to be a magnet if that were the case.

Though the spinning electrons by thenselves should generate some gyroscopic effect, inertial mass is calculated using the radius of the mass and even the oribital radius of an atom would be super small let alone the radius of the electron.

Interesting to think there might be a way to generate some material with a build in gyroscopic effect.

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2016, 03:21:08 AM »
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Offline Eighthman

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2016, 04:20:17 AM »
I think it is surprising that we can discuss this question openly - without (apparently) any clear answer from mainstream science - and it concerns a simple question about physics. What the heck else is out there, hidden behind math and academic authority?


I wonder if we could figure out these forces as forms of motion, who knows where it would lead? It is believed that that single remaining electron spin per atom creates the crushing force of a big expensive neodymium magnet ......... but the gyro movement?  Nope, not there.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2016, 07:50:48 AM »
You guys are all talking about this stuff but nobody is attempting to calculate any possible gyroscopic effect.  How do you know if a magnet is supposed or not supposed to feel like a gyroscope if you have no idea how large the effect is supposed to be?  For all you know it is there but the magnitude of the gyroscopic effect is insignificant.  Without attempting to crunch some numbers the discussion is meaningless.


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2016, 07:53:13 AM »
Here's a standard explanation:


http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Core/Physical_Chemistry/Quantum_Mechanics/09._The_Hydrogen_Atom/Atomic_Theory/Electrons_in_Atoms/Electron_Spin


And the problem remains.  You get a magnetic field from a net (single) spinning electron.............but why not gyroscopic motion of the magnet? If you have two opposite spins, they cancel out and no field.   Weird.  I think Dewey Larson wrote a book in which he tried to explain all physics with forms of motion. To make matters worse, if I understand it correctly, quantum physicists try to deny that spin is real!

From a quick scan of that link that is not an explanation.  The "electron spin" that they are talking about is not the same as the possible gyroscopic effect from an electron spinning in orbit around a nucleus.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2016, 08:50:09 AM »
oy veh!


the 'spin' is 90-degrees to the orbit, which is in the same vector as the magnetic polarization.
an electron's spin has very little effect on the magnetic moment.
only on the trajectory of the orbit, and subsequently, the vector of the NEXT magnetic moment....
When the orbits are aligned, this is already determined.

the cumulative 'spins' of the outer-shell electrons, in a magnetized mass,
are coherent with the stable (or slowly decaying) orbital trajectory.
meaning, the spin of an electron, at any given moment, is such that its' trajectory follows the orbit shared by its neighbors.
It is pre-determined, from the point of magnetization, until it stops being a magnet.
Within an accuracy of ~ the quantum factor.
The spins are not aligned with each other, but rather they are UNalligned, in such a way that the
orbits can synchronize without collisions.

It is the orbit, that creates the magnetic moment.
similar to induction through a single loop of wire.

the gyroscopic effect of a single electrons' orbit is so tiny,.
it does not even effect the mass of the atom itself.
much less the cumulative mass of trillions of atoms in a magnet.

take your gyroscope, and attach it to (not a stick) a giant redwood tree.
and see if that tiny gyro will prohibit the massive tree from blowing in the wind.

to simulate this, you need not two gyros on a stick,
but rather several million tiny gyros, on top and bottom of a giant stone tabletop.
then lift this tabletop with a crane, and swing it around to do your tests.

If you want to see this on a smaller scale,
take two gyros, side by side, on a spinning surface. like a turntable.
attach a counterweight to one spot around each gyro, and start them spinning so that the weights are 180-degrees out of phase.
(one weight passing through the center, while the other is swinging around the outside)
rotate them in the same direction.

Now take two more weighted gyros, and place them 90-degrees to the first two,
but at a different radial distance from the center of rotation.
either closer to or further away from the center, than the first pair.

Compare this to a single weighted gyro placed in the center of rotation.

now, repeat these steps with additional weighted gyros placed below the turntable.

Now, take the center axis of rotation, and change it across different planes,
and examine how this changes the net force experienced from the system of gryos.
For instance, if there were an axle placed horizontally through the turntable,
that allowed the entire thing to rotate in the vertical plane.

What happened to the force you saw with the single gyro?
and why?

The thing you have to keep in mind, is that your gyroscope is balanced.
not a single unit orbiting, but an entire solid mass in rotation.
the counterweight makes the force analogy more similar to the electron in orbit.









Offline verpies

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2016, 09:51:33 AM »
Weird.  I think Dewey Larson wrote a book in which he tried to explain all physics with forms of motion.
Yes, and his explanation is the only that makes sense to me.  The user "bperet" on that forum, explains it the best.

To make matters worse, if I understand it correctly, quantum physicists try to deny that spin is real!
The indeed do.

Take one gyroscope and get it spinning.  Get another and spin it in the other direction.  Neither one wants to twist.  Stick one at one end of a stick and the other at the other end of the stick.  I think you now get a vertical stick that doesn't want to turn horizontal. I think they don't cancel out and get rid of the gyroscopic behavior.
Correct.

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Re: Why Doesn't A Magnet 'Feel' Like A Gyroscope?
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2016, 09:51:33 AM »

 

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