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Solid States Devices => Resonance Circuits and Systems => Topic started by: hartiberlin on March 15, 2016, 08:27:11 PM

Title: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: hartiberlin on March 15, 2016, 08:27:11 PM
This is a thread I made up for discussing Resonance circuits and system with 2 new moderators Magluvin and Tinman.

Many thanks for discussing this here with the help of these moderators.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on March 15, 2016, 10:52:33 PM
Thanks Stefan. Very Much.

To all....

Ill be talking with Tinman later when he gets online to go over our objectives for this board on resonance.  There can be new threads on the board, but we would like to keep it clean, as in, if there is to be a debate over resonance or on subjects within the board, then the debaters can open a new thread on that subject matter. This would help a great deal with keeping project threads clean and easier to reference previous pages within the thread. Again, Ill be talking to Tinman on this and we will get some things going very soon.

Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: tinman on March 16, 2016, 12:21:42 AM
Thanks Stefan. Very Much.

To all....

Ill be talking with Tinman later when he gets online to go over our objectives for this board on resonance.  There can be new threads on the board, but we would like to keep it clean, as in, if there is to be a debate over resonance or on subjects within the board, then the debaters can open a new thread on that subject matter. This would help a great deal with keeping project threads clean and easier to reference previous pages within the thread. Again, Ill be talking to Tinman on this and we will get some things going very soon.

Thanks

Mags

Thanks for getting this started Mag's,and it seems that it is the only way to keep things on track.

The very first thing for me toward these project's,is to try and build a variable cap that has an adjustable value of between .1uf to 100uf.

I will see if i can devise an easy way to do this,so as any that wish to have a variable cap with these adjustable value's can build it right at home.

The reason for the large adjustable value, is so we can make it a universal type of VC,so as it may be used to tune most of what we are doing here.

Most VCs (trimmer caps) only have very small value's,and i think a large value one would come in real handy--so i'll see how i go on this one,and how successful it will be.

So thats my first project for this board.
Where shall we put this one Mag's ?,as this board posting is all new to me lol.


Brad
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on March 16, 2016, 12:57:44 AM
Thanks for getting this started Mag's,and it seems that it is the only way to keep things on track.

The very first thing for me toward these project's,is to try and build a variable cap that has an adjustable value of between .1uf to 100uf.

I will see if i can devise an easy way to do this,so as any that wish to have a variable cap with these adjustable value's can build it right at home.

The reason for the large adjustable value, is so we can make it a universal type of VC,so as it may be used to tune most of what we are doing here.

Most VCs (trimmer caps) only have very small value's,and i think a large value one would come in real handy--so i'll see how i go on this one,and how successful it will be.

So thats my first project for this board.
Where shall we put this one Mag's ?,as this board posting is all new to me lol.


Brad

Well this is thread no. 1 of the board. So we make new threads as needed.  Good idea on the variable cap.

Ill be back in a bit.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: tinman on March 16, 2016, 01:51:09 PM
Oops ???
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: synchro1 on March 16, 2016, 02:14:49 PM
Lester Hendershot's schematics:
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Bob Smith on March 16, 2016, 02:19:47 PM
Here's a very simple home made variable cap, used for a crystal radio project:
Bob




https://youtu.be/iunAvz9PbN0?t=86[/font][/size]
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: synchro1 on March 16, 2016, 02:34:10 PM
Bell ringing circuit:
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: tinman on March 17, 2016, 12:14:50 AM
Here's a very simple home made variable cap, used for a crystal radio project:
Bob




https://youtu.be/iunAvz9PbN0?t=86[/font][/size]

Hi Bob
Thanks for the link.
I hoping to make one with a far greater variable capacitance,along with being much more compact.
I do have an idea,but it will be tricky to put together .


Brad
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: AlienGrey on March 17, 2016, 11:35:42 AM
Hi Bob
Thanks for the link.
I hoping to make one with a far greater variable capacitance,along with being much more compact.
I do have an idea,but it will be tricky to put together .


Brad

yes very nice ;). (Bring back Jackson brothers), but don't JCar or Maplin do a substitution box ?   

Have a look at this device, https://uk.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?ei=UTF-8&type=avastbcl&hspart=avast&hsimp=yhs-001&p=capacitor+switch+box
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on March 18, 2016, 12:35:23 AM
Just an update on me.  Had gotten this laptop used, nice dell, and it has windows 7 freshly loaded on it.  Got it several months ago. It was doing this 'Get Windows 10' gig to me all the time. Looked into it and I had installed the GWX Control Panel which kills the notices of get windows 10 download for free, and the article that recommended it says that Microsoft is forcing it on people, now as of late automatically installing without permission from the owners. People come home and turn on their pcs n laptops and it starts installing, in some cases if you try to cancel it restarts the install. Anyway, my hotspot data had still seemed to be heavily diminishing with little use of the net by me. So looking into it further, using my Comodo firewall, I could see what progs are communicating at any time.  I swear if I didnt even open a browser my 10gigs would be gone in 2 days. So I used Comodo to stop all communications other than Ice Dragon, Comodos browser. Frikin Driver Support software was on continually. For what? I dont change hardware every day in this thing, or add new usb components. So tossed that prog. Then in Update settings, I shut it all off. It was kicking my datas ass also.

Even then, the computer had lots of communications going on that I could see in Comodo that were still sucking up data, like service host (198) or any other number. Shut them all down.  Now Im doing much better.  From what I understand is windows 10 is a lot worse and harder to stop those communications. And many underlying privacy issues come along with it. Thats why they are pushing it on people so hard.  I have XP on most of my computers. Love Xp. Still works great. Just cant use it on newer stuff like this laptop due to drivers not available and others problems. 

Also, Yahoo home page can eat a lot of data.  I use OU as my home page as it doesnt constantly suck us dry if we walk away for a bit.


Been thinking on threads and what subjects to cover. i dont want to just break out with a bunch of stuff till I have thought it over a bit. One thread Id like to do is finding the best ratio of capacitance for a given coil to get it to ring most efficiently. Was playing with the JT and I put a wire about 1 ft long in series with the led and wound 1 turn on one of my bifi coils set up in series and the scope on the ends. It rings at just shy of 15khz. Added little ferite rods and it was down to 12khz and more output voltage.  Added a cap in series where the coils are connected end to end and I got down to just below 10khz but increasing the series capacitance more and more brought it back to near 15khz. So the added capacitance must have been getting much larger than the bifi capacitance and the added capacitance acted more like a feed through with little affect on the resonant freq.

Putting the other scope leads on the 1 loop wire didnt show any signs of signal, associated with the bifi ring all the way down to 20mv scale. Too little ohms to read the wire directly, would have to put a current sense resistor in there, which would kill off lots of power getting to the single turn after the led.

Meanwhile, Im trying to come up with some substantial projects to work with here. The jt resonance deal, Im trying some things like adding a 3rd winding with many turns and a cap to see if I get that to ring and how it affects the JTs operation.  Other than that, I have only seen ringing of the battery then added some disk caps to bring the freq down to where the jt operates and can get greater than 1v swings on the AA battery itself. I found that encouraging a bit.

Also I said earlier about mechanical resonance. The direction of that thread would involve experiments like Tesla did with the little tapper machine making the building structure shake. If you have read it, you get the idea.

Ok, to the bench.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on March 18, 2016, 12:55:00 AM
One thread Id like to do is finding the best ratio of capacitance for a given coil to get it to ring most efficiently.

I asked someone about this once and I didnt seem to get an answer. Maybe my question was worded differently then.

Like if we look at the Guitar strings and we remove all but one.  I would think that the analogy to an LC would  be that the mass weight of the string is the inductance and the tightness of the string is the capacitance.  If we went to big on the capacitance, the string would become loose and not vibrate a long time like as if it were tight. If the string were too tight, as in too little capacitance, would it ring longer than a capacitance/tightness somewhere in the middle?
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: pomodoro on March 18, 2016, 01:18:23 PM
Sqrt(L/C) is a very important value. It is equal to Xc and Xl at resonance,And is the characteristic impedance Zo. You can now clearly see how the L/C ratio affects the ringing by altering the Q of the circuit. A series resonant circuit will not oscillate if R (losses in circuit) >2Zo or <Zo/2 for a tank circuit. For best ringing  R should be as small (for series resonant) as possible but because of practical reasons there is an optimum ratio of L/C after which R is affected.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: verpies on March 18, 2016, 06:26:54 PM
Been thinking on threads and what subjects to cover. i dont want to just break out with a bunch of stuff till I have thought it over a bit. One thread Id like to do is finding the best ratio of capacitance for a given coil to get it to ring most efficiently.
In lumped series LCR circuits, the inductance should be maximized in order to maximize the Q.
In lumped parallel LCR circuits, the capacitance should be maximized in order to maximize the Q.

Note, that in most realistic inductors, quadrupling their inductance, doubles their resistance.


Also, when the resonance wavelengths become comparable to the lengths of the inductors, they should be treated as transmission lines - not lumped LC circuits.

Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on March 18, 2016, 10:07:25 PM
In lumped series LCR circuits, the inductance should be maximized in order to maximize the Q.
In lumped parallel LCR circuits, the capacitance should be maximized in order to maximize the Q.

Note, that in most realistic inductors, quadrupling their inductance, doubles their resistance.


Also, when the resonance wavelengths become comparable to the lengths of the inductors, they should be treated as transmission lines - not lumped LC circuits.

Thanks Verpies

Did you mean,  "become comparable to the lengths of the 'conductors'" or inductors?

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: tinman on March 19, 2016, 02:56:01 AM
@Mag's

Below is a quick sketch of the base circuit i am experimenting with ATM.

Odd operation at first glance,but i have a full wave across both coil's as i had hoped for.
All coils on same toroid core of course.
Will post some scope shot's when i get back tomorrow from my boat trip.


Brad
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on March 19, 2016, 03:32:05 AM
@Mag's

Below is a quick sketch of the base circuit i am experimenting with ATM.

Odd operation at first glance,but i have a full wave across both coil's as i had hoped for.
All coils on same toroid core of course.
Will post some scope shot's when i get back tomorrow from my boat trip.


Brad

That interesting.  Are the coils on 1 core?   

Bringing some stuff I had at home bench for the mechanical resonance project. Take pics and start a thread, along with a JT resonance thread. 

Need some sleep tonight or tomorrow will be a sluggish day.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: verpies on March 19, 2016, 11:17:05 AM
Did you mean,  "become comparable to the lengths of the 'conductors'" or inductors?
Conductors in inductors
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: tinman on March 25, 2016, 02:12:17 PM
Below are two test results from slightly different circuit's.

I have switched over to my hybrid toroid inductor,and the results are very good indeed.
there is something about this hybrid toroid that always exceeds results from that of standard wound toroid inductors.

The first circuit is the one that MH classes as the !standard! JT circuit,but after many comments from others on my youtube channel and here,it would seem that the second circuit is considered as the standard JT circuit. It is most defiantly the most efficient of the two,and in each associated scope shot you can see why.
With the first circuit,the current never stops flowing from the battery-even during the off time of the transistor. The reason for this is because during the off time of the transistor,the battery is included in the current loop,but where as the current is flowing into the battery the wrong way.

In the second circuit,the associated scope shot clearly show's the current stops flowing from the battery during the off time of the transistor. This is because the battery is now emitted from the current loop,and the current loop now only includes the L1 coil and LED.

You will also notice how low the frequency is when using the hybrid toroid inductor,even though the inner core is an !off the shelf! ferrite core,and the outer core material is devcon steel putty.

The light output from the hybrid inductor is about 18% more than the standard ferrite core JT,for a lot less P/in as well. We can clearly see the current flow across the 1ohm CVR--!blue trace!.The yellow trace is across L1.

The supply voltage remains the same in both cases.


Brad
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: tinman on March 26, 2016, 09:16:55 AM
First scope shots from the circuit below.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: tinman on March 26, 2016, 10:27:40 AM
Well i can confirm that in a resonant state or frequency,you do get more out for less in.

Below is a scope shot of two LED's being run while the inductor is in a resonant state.
If the frequency drop's by more than 100Hz either side of the 8.5KHz,then the LEDs dull off,and the power consumption go's up.

Each scope trace is across each LED-->there are 2 LED's in the circuit.


Brad
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 01, 2017, 05:44:12 PM
Hi!

I'm trying out some coils for the first time and I want to get resonant coupling going on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_inductive_coupling

I am trying to find the simplest circuit to test some "tesla" coil arrangement and they are hard to find. People seem to be working with ignition coils and arcs mostly.

Would something like this work to drive the primary? My secondary could just be a coil with a cap for tuning. Then near field transmission from secondary to load.

https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/y9wuxmsmf697/tesla-driver-circuit/

I got TL494 for the square wave and 2N3055 for driving the coil. I got IRFP260Ns coming, but that might take awhile and I want to try try this out already :)

I am just starting my electronics hobby and I want to get a feel for coils and resonances before going into kapanadze replicas

Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 03, 2017, 06:06:23 AM
Hi!

I'm trying out some coils for the first time and I want to get resonant coupling going on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_inductive_coupling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_inductive_coupling)

I am trying to find the simplest circuit to test some "tesla" coil arrangement and they are hard to find. People seem to be working with ignition coils and arcs mostly.

Would something like this work to drive the primary? My secondary could just be a coil with a cap for tuning. Then near field transmission from secondary to load.

https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/y9wuxmsmf697/tesla-driver-circuit/ (https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/y9wuxmsmf697/tesla-driver-circuit/)

I got TL494 for the square wave and 2N3055 for driving the coil. I got IRFP260Ns coming, but that might take awhile and I want to try try this out already :)

I am just starting my electronics hobby and I want to get a feel for coils and resonances before going into kapanadze replicas

I checked out the wiki. Those are interesting proposals they show in pics below. Ive only ever seen coil loop to coil loop in transmitting and receiving like TK has shown in his vids. Would there be a difference by having a separate LC next to the receiving coil vs just having the receiving loop as the L of the receiving LC? And then they show a separate LC with the transmit coil also.  Is worth looking at. ;)

The other link is not working for me.

Are you looking to go Tesla for the high voltage aspect?

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: TinselKoala on September 03, 2017, 07:30:35 AM
Resonant inductive coupling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhBgAAJUPsw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-hl2W86yk

Resonant capacitive coupling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPvdN75dl4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kndYHIHSAE8&t=337s
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: TinselKoala on September 03, 2017, 08:21:32 AM
Hi!

I'm trying out some coils for the first time and I want to get resonant coupling going on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_inductive_coupling (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonant_inductive_coupling)

I am trying to find the simplest circuit to test some "tesla" coil arrangement and they are hard to find. People seem to be working with ignition coils and arcs mostly.

Would something like this work to drive the primary? My secondary could just be a coil with a cap for tuning. Then near field transmission from secondary to load.

https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/y9wuxmsmf697/tesla-driver-circuit/ (https://www.circuitlab.com/circuit/y9wuxmsmf697/tesla-driver-circuit/)

I got TL494 for the square wave and 2N3055 for driving the coil. I got IRFP260Ns coming, but that might take awhile and I want to try try this out already :)

I am just starting my electronics hobby and I want to get a feel for coils and resonances before going into kapanadze replicas

I would recommend "backing up" one step and going for the auto-resonating circuits like the Slayer Exciter using your 2n3055 to start with.
(You should also know that not all 2n3055s are created equal, there are many fakes out there that cannot take the HV, so try different manufacturers and sources for your transistors if possible.)

The reason for using auto-resonating circuits is that the actual resonant frequency of the coil set will change due to changing environments like proximity of your hands, other metal objects, supply voltage and so on. So if you are using an oscillator circuit like the 494 you will constantly be retuning to keep the setup in resonance and may miss the true resonant point altogether. Autoresonating circuits are much easier and simpler to work with when you are starting out.

There are many different types of autoresonators. The TKoil X circuit demonstrated above is an antenna-driven E-field feedback circuit but is more complicated (and less safe)  than the direct base-driven Slayer Exciter circuits as shown below. More sophisticated auto-resonating SSTCs use phase-locked loops (CD4046, etc.) to lock into resonance and these can produce great results but are not for the raw beginner.

Good Luck!

This will work with 2n3055:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6uQUxC7DS8
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 03, 2017, 02:41:00 PM
I checked out the wiki. Those are interesting proposals they show in pics below. Ive only ever seen coil loop to coil loop in transmitting and receiving like TK has shown in his vids. Would there be a difference by having a separate LC next to the receiving coil vs just having the receiving loop as the L of the receiving LC? And then they show a separate LC with the transmit coil also.  Is worth looking at. ;)

The other link is not working for me.

Are you looking to go Tesla for the high voltage aspect?

Mags

TK is the reason I am here wondering :) The annoying thing here is that my kungfu consists of resistors, caps and some diodes. So I got lotsa ideas, but no skills. It seems electronics is like baking. You need to know the basics to start to experiment, but when I can't find anything like this learning even the basics is hard :(

I want to try to prim -> LC -> LC -> load, but I got no circuit to drive looped coils. Everything is flyback feedback or for ignition coils.

I just want to get something to show up in my scope like prim & looped secondary in resonance. When I hit resonance I want to add another coil to see if I can still get prim & sec resonating, but also excite the third col. I want to try to "blind" the LC like Tesla did, so it would charge to higher voltages it receives
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 03, 2017, 02:44:05 PM
I would recommend "backing up" one step and going for the auto-resonating circuits like the Slayer Exciter using your 2n3055 to start with.
(You should also know that not all 2n3055s are created equal, there are many fakes out there that cannot take the HV, so try different manufacturers and sources for your transistors if possible.)

The reason for using auto-resonating circuits is that the actual resonant frequency of the coil set will change due to changing environments like proximity of your hands, other metal objects, supply voltage and so on. So if you are using an oscillator circuit like the 494 you will constantly be retuning to keep the setup in resonance and may miss the true resonant point altogether. Autoresonating circuits are much easier and simpler to work with when you are starting out.

There are many different types of autoresonators. The TKoil X circuit demonstrated above is an antenna-driven E-field feedback circuit but is more complicated (and less safe)  than the direct base-driven Slayer Exciter circuits as shown below. More sophisticated auto-resonating SSTCs use phase-locked loops (CD4046, etc.) to lock into resonance and these can produce great results but are not for the raw beginner.

Good Luck!

This will work with 2n3055:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6uQUxC7DS8

Thx Tinsel!

Yeah I backed up already. Had a beer and thought this through. Having the circuit "autotune" itself is a major factor. Just wondering how a looped secondary will work with that? I will attach a schematic I'm using and maybe I add a third coil there that is looped with a cap. prim and sec would autotune even with the third coil I think
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 03, 2017, 07:21:05 PM
TinselKoala I have to say your slayer exciter is a really clean build! I feel a ashamed now :( My lab is 1m x 1m between a bed and a shelf.

I will try your circuit on my coil.

Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 05, 2017, 07:05:40 PM
is the larger number of turn on the secondary necessary when trying to get HV? I was told in tesla coils the primary "whips" the voltage up the secondary and that is how the voltage builds up.

If the secondary is a looped coil what would introducing a large cap do to the situation? Freq, voltages?

If the secondary is feeding back to the system can I get away with smaller number of turns?

Did one 400 turn coil and using that as my secondary. Took me hours with thin cable :( Primary is going to be 3 turns

Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: TinselKoala on September 06, 2017, 01:51:26 PM
Nothing to be embarrassed about, we all work with what we have and try to make the best of it.

is the larger number of turn on the secondary necessary when trying to get HV? I was told in tesla coils the primary "whips" the voltage up the secondary and that is how the voltage builds up.

Yes, the action of a good 1/4 wave air-core resonator is somewhat like a "whip" in that the top end is free to swing to very high voltage amplitude.
The number of turns on the secondary is related to the frequency of the resonance. You must consider the "electrical length" of the winding, which
influences its inductance, which in turn combined with the top capacity will determine the basic resonant frequency of the setup. Shorter electrical
length means smaller inductance which means higher frequency of resonance. Once you get over about 4 MHz you are well into high frequency radio
transmissions and you will have to have your layout, components and construction all fit for that purpose. For practical experimentation using
ordinary transistors and haphazard layout, you should try to stay below 1 MHz. This means longer coils, more turns, etc.
You can attain VRSWR and high voltages with shorter, higher frequency coils but as I said, you have to be much more careful with your layout and
component choices. You aren't going to get much satisfaction with a 2n2222 transistor and a 4MHz resonator!
Quote

If the secondary is a looped coil what would introducing a large cap do to the situation? Freq, voltages?

I'm not sure what you mean by "looped coil" or "large cap" here. You can use any number of on-line calculators to determine resonant frequency,
inductor and capacitor values. My favourite one is here:
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm (http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm)
Quote

If the secondary is feeding back to the system can I get away with smaller number of turns?

I'm not sure what you mean by "feeding back" here. The Slayer exciter circuit uses feedback from the base (bottom) of the secondary to drive
the transistor's Base terminal. The TinselKoil X uses antenna feedback from the secondary's E-field to drive the mosfet driver chip. As I said
before the turn count of the secondary, all other things being equal, will determine the basic resonant frequency of the system. The fewer turns,
the lower the inductance and the higher the resonant frequency, again if all other variables are held constant.
Quote

Did one 400 turn coil and using that as my secondary. Took me hours with thin cable :( Primary is going to be 3 turns


Good. It's good practice to wind coils, good discipline, and you'll get better at it the more you do. Masking tape is your friend, use it to
tape down the turns so if you need to stop or if you let go for some reason, your coil will only unwind to the taped part, not totally!

But I have to warn you: You will find it very difficult to get consistent and satisfactory results using a loose, sloppy layout with lots of
clipleads, and the problems will get worse with higher frequencies.


One other thing: When posting pictures to the forum, please PLEASE try to keep the horizontal width small enough so the pix don't run
off the page to the right. 800 pixels wide is good enough for most purposes; rarely you may need to use up to 1024 pixels wide. If you
need to show some detail at high magnification, crop it out of the larger picture and post the cropped detail at no more than 1024 pixels wide.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 06, 2017, 02:18:57 PM
I'm not sure what you mean by "looped coil" or "large cap" here. You can use any number of on-line calculators to determine resonant frequency,
inductor and capacitor values. My favourite one is here:
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm (http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm)

looped coil is just connected to itself. What I was thinking was to compensate the number of turns with a large capacitor. Not sure what the ratio of inductance and capacitance will do, but I will find out!

Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by "feeding back" here.

I meant the secondary having a feedback to the system like it does in the slayer exciter. If the secondary is looped with a capacitor it still acts as an antenna and I could maybe use a looped coil with your style of antenna feedback?

Quote
But I have to warn you: You will find it very difficult to get consistent and satisfactory results using a loose, sloppy layout with lots of
clipleads, and the problems will get worse with higher frequencies.

Yeah I just use the clipleads when I try out something and then solder afterwards. Just got some bread boards that could help me keeping the connections shorter

Quote
One other thing: When posting pictures to the forum, please PLEASE try to keep the horizontal width small enough so the pix don't run
off the page to the right. 800 pixels wide is good enough for most purposes; rarely you may need to use up to 1024 pixels wide. If you
need to show some detail at high magnification, crop it out of the larger picture and post the cropped detail at no more than 1024 pixels wide.

Yeah can't find any buttons on this thread anymore. Going to delete the pic
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 07, 2017, 11:42:27 AM
My studies in resonance has taken a turn toward resonance of sound.

Ive been working in car audio for many years. All this resonance talk with circuits and such has brought me to the conclusion that I have been working with resonance for a longer time than I realize, and Im recognizing its importance to all this and I want to figure out how we can relate the audio resonance to circuits and such.

To start here, Im going to show how Im going to use resonance to outdo my friend in a DB Drag sound competition using the same equipment. 6 12in Pioneer Champ pro subs, and 3 pioneer digital(class D is what they imply) run at 1ohm 2 subs per amp. So my friend is copying my specs for my sub box. That got me a bit as why cant he go with his own design, anyway...  So Im not telling him of my new plans. 

Originally I was going with 3cu ft at 25hz tuned with a 4in port 15in long for each sub. total of 18 cu ft internal. This would have the characteristics of the Lt Blue trace in the multiple trace graph below.

So my new weapon is the dual chamber reflex enclosure. The Lt Blue trace is tuned at 25hz, and the new dual chamber reflex is shown with the characteristics of the pink trace(emulated with a 6th order bandpass option except the DCR will not have upper cutoff like shown here. Ive made a corrected graph for that below the multi trace graph) in which my new design has resonance at 25hz and 50hz.  In car response increases below 80hz up to 12db down to 20hz, So the hump at 50hz should be close to flat down to 25hz.

In the multi trace graph I show multiple possibilities for different boxes for the sub.

Yellow trace -  Infinite baffle. Basically largest sealed box possible. I made it 50cuft as going larger doesnt make much difference for this explanation.
Green trace - Recommended sealed box at 1.25cu ft
Orange trace - Recommended ported(vented) tuned enclosure at 1.5cuft tuned at 38hz(of which is loud but I like a lot of lower extension bottom end)
Lt Blue trace - My version of ported enclosure at 3cuft tuned to 25hz.  Huge gain in the low end. Have built a test box and it rocks.
Pink trace - 6th order bandpass enclosure where speaker is enclosed in between 2 boxes each tuned to 25hz and 50hz respectively. Notice the gain at 25hz and on up to 50hz. Im in the belief that the gain at 25hz is due to the combination of the 50hz tuning together, as in they help eachother as seen in the gain at 50hz also.
Purple trace - This is a 6th order with 35hz and 38hz tuning. Combined there is a monstrous gain in that area of freq.

So with the various implementations great amounts of efficiency can be had vs just a sealed enclosure or infinite baffle where the speaker output is all on its own trying to get the job done.

So the second graph shows the difference between my friends box in the green trace and my new design in purple. I will be louder all the way around by just reconfiguring my box still using 3cuft total for each sub. The box chart below shows the various speaker box types out there. My design is based on Weems dual chamber reflex shown in the box selections below. Im interested in the Fostex but there are not any design parameters out there as it is a proprietary design by Fostex. It would have to be experimented with to gain knowledge on how to calculate.

In the Db Drag competition the upper limit of freq is now below 60hz, used to be 100hz. Guys used to tune to 90 and only play 90hz to see who was louder. They were getting above 180db and it certainly wasnt music. So you can see the gain I will have over my friend at 50hz come Spring Break Nationals. ;D

So what does this all have to do with this thread?  The combination of 2 freq even at a distance of 25hz to 50hz shows an overall gain. And the high peak trace at 35 and 38hz should be of interest. If we can apply this to electronic resonance it may be promising. It makes me think of the TPU supposedly using 3 tuned freq. Maybe it is simpler than we think. ???

Mags



Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 07, 2017, 12:13:18 PM
My initial thinking would be to have a drive coil between 2 lc coils. What Im trying to comprehend is how do we associate the output of the speaker box to a load in the electronic version. The speaker boxes load is moving air. So how do we look at loads with the electronic version in a comparative way? Like if we close of the speaker output by putting a solid cover over the speaker cone and cover the port outputs would, to me, act like a short circuit load of the electronic version thus having a not so positive output goal. On the other end, if the speaker box were in a vacuum there would be no output as if there were no load in the lc circuit. So loads for lc circuits most likely need a happy medium and a load matched for each variation.

Just thoughts

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 07, 2017, 12:36:41 PM
The formulation for the Weems DCR is to calculate a vented box while calculating it for 2 ports at the low freq you want, to get the length of the ports, then cut all 3 ports to that length then divide the box into 2 thirds for the speaker side and 1 third for the other ported side. You have to calculate the volume that the ports take up along with the speakers displacement and add that to the total internal volume to be precise. This box will ring at the low freq(my box at 25hz) and it will ring at the next octave up( my box would be 50hz)

Built 2 of them before. Got the info from a book by David Weems on speaker enclosures.

The Fostex enclosure by example seems to have the smaller partition of the enclosure on the speaker side and not necessarily divides in thirds. The box chart above does not show this but I have seen many examples.

Im thinking that the smaller speaker chamber is tuned to the upper freq with the port in between the partitions and the outgoing port is tuned to the lower freq objective calculating the enclosure as a whole.  The Weems design, both ports are active at the lower freq as if the partition were not there, as shown by the calculations of 2 ports to get the low freq tuning. Im still pondering how the 50hz ringing is accomplished. Had not studied that with the other 2 boxes I made.
Will do on this new setup.  But the Fostex Im guessing that the small side with the internal port between the chambers rings at the uper freq and the lower port outputs the upper freq anyway, like how the 2 tuned freq help each other in the DCR trace.

Below is a more accurate depiction of a Fostex design compared to what Ive seen of the real thing others have done including Fostex.

Just getting deep into all this and I hope it helps with things we are trying to accomplish here. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 07, 2017, 12:55:25 PM
One more thing

A ported enclosure tuned to say 25hz, the speaker is moving very little at the tuned freq. The speaker and the output of the port are in phase. So the speaker and the port are pushing out at the same time and the port has the most output at that freq. As we go lower in freq the port output goes out of phase and eventually the output of the port is 180deg out of phase where there is no output, just big speaker cone throw and port noise as they cancel audible program output. Using a subsonic filter on vented enclosures is popular to cut out the low freq that are below the tuning freq to avoid wasting precious power on output we cant hear.

So with the Fostex enclosure, the small chamber say if tuned to 50hz, once the freq goes below 50hz, the internal port starts going out of phase and once it gets down say an octave and below, the internal port becomes invisible to the speaker and the box acts like the internal port and partition do not exist when it comes to freq dependence and the box acts like 1 large vented enclosure tuned to the lower output port freq tuned to the box as a whole enclosure. This is the theory I have figured with the knowledge of studying the Weems design. The Weems design at the lower tuned freq also acts as if the internal partition and port do not exist.

Im just learning a lot about resonance in a fun way here. I hope it adds up to something we can use here.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 07, 2017, 01:11:45 PM
The 10db gain I will get at 50hz compared to my friends setup will have an audible sense of doubling.  3db increase is just a noticeable increase.  He would have to have an increase of power that is almost 10 times to get that loud at 50hz. We are both running 5200w from the same equip. That would mean he would need about 45,000w to accomplish the same db level at 50hz. That is some good efficiency Ill be getting just by building the box differently but the same internal cuft volume for his and mine.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 07, 2017, 02:10:58 PM
My philosophy is that everything is waves. Matter is just standing waves. I see many analogies in nature/sound that could and should be experimented with in electronics. We are drifting further away from real things when we pretend we are better than the ground we came from.

In my black book I got ideas like a tube with an elastic membrane in the middle. Left side of the tube filled with helium and right side with something heavier than air. Then you place speakers on both ends.

What happens when you blast the other speaker? What if the membrane/material is vibrated to resonance? Can we just shift frequencies or do we get more out from the other speaker that acts now as a receiver?

I think the more you do stuff like nature does you get somewhere. That is why I feel a spark gap is always better to try stuff out with. It is more alive and autotunes to situations. Then when you find some principle or effect you can build the thing with transistors.

If you are bound by the transmitting frequency you could try the heavy gas inside the subwoofer box?
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 07, 2017, 04:29:47 PM
Ive been steering away from spark gaps(only have a couple more things Id like to try with them) and pulsing ferite cores to a point where they emit radiations NMR for safety reasons. Some have claimed of headaches and such with that and spark gaps supposedly can emit Xrays.
So all that may reduce my chances of finding FE, but Im still hopeful with resonance and im examining that in a different form with ideas that are already out there, just nobody in the car audio community seems to have gotten to yet. There are other speaker enclosures that I have yet to even ponder how they work, but Im terribly interested to play around with them. Here are some in the pics of more complex ideas below. There are not any speaker box programs out there for the 'average guy" that can do predictions on these box configs, let alone a dual chamber reflex of either type. If any of these designs below can increase the output further than I have shown so far by example(except for the 35hz and 38hz trace) then I want to know how that gain is produced. How far can we go with it. Its a combination of resonances that are increasing the gains, like I said earlier it may give us an indication on how the TPU worked, possibly. All of those traces are at 1w. My DCR design can possibly hit 160db with 5200w real watts vs guys running 30kw and 40kw that are using inefficient woofers that happen to be able to take that kind of input. I call it the car audio scam, make big expensive subs that need a lot of power to achieve what most of them ignore about the Sensitivity parameters of the speakers. Im going in as the underdog with $1000 dollars of equipment against goliaths and Im competing with them with a fairly good knowledge of resonance in this area. Most of them are using either vented boxes or 4th order with the speaker in the box between 2 chambers and the other chamber is ported out and all the sound exits the port. I have a clear advantage with the DCR box along with more efficient subs 96db @1w vs many that are below 90db @1w.

So in all that, I want to examine resonance in this fashion for a while and see how far I can go with it. If I can go another leap with this, then I want to examine how to do the same with electronic versions. The key will be translating how to get more output than just a basic driven coil can produce, just like the speaker. Like Im not totally sure that putting 2 LCs, 1 on each side of the drive coil, will increase efficiency like the 35hz/38hz peaky trace in the graph. Or if say 1 LC is tuned at say 2500hz and the other at 5000hz would give us a gain vs just one or the another alone as a pickup or say sec of a transformer, or even help the gains of each other like the speaker box. But this is where Im restarting my investigation for now and I believe by better understanding of this, will help me with that.

This is all within the description of the thread.  ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 07, 2017, 06:40:51 PM
I am just getting started with coils! Actually did my first actual tesla coil today. It seems you gotta do few get get a good one. Top load is tin cans and the secondary has too few turns and not even from a one solid cable. But I got got the setup done so that I can switch secondaries and primaries easily.

Bought some wooden shelves, so I can get these PVC coils horizontal and bolted in one place. This way I can store them away easily.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 07, 2017, 07:36:46 PM
I guess the big point Im trying to instill here is that resonance 'should' be able to increase efficiency in our circuits just like it does for the speaker.

I think those of us that have experimented are possibly doing it wrong when it comes to getting better output using resonance. There are some switching supplies out there that are very efficient in the mid to high 90s that run up to 150kz. Can graeter efficiency be had with such already high efficiency devices? Does it have to be dramatically redesigned in order for it to work to a benefit?

Similarly, Pioneer has another 12in sub that has an efficiency level of 105db @1w input. I have one coming in today to test in the same vented test box as the Champ pro which is at 96db @1w. That is an increase of 9db over the Champ and just absolutely killing them all with their 88 and 90db subs which can cost 500 to over $1000 ea (talking 15in subs) vs the under $100 Pioneers. So I might have another gain in the competition, if the sub sounds good in the same box. Computer sim shows its good, but I always do testing to be sure.  The champ sub compared to this other Pioneer TS-W1200PRO needs 8 times the input power to play as loud. Like the champ would need 8w to play as loud as the 1200pro at 1w, similarly if the champ were at full rms of 800w, the 1200pro only needs 100w to do the same work. So if we run the 1200pro at 800w, the champ would need 6400w to catch up, of which it is only rated at 2000w peak intermittent input, so that cant happen.

This test is exciting to me. Looking all over, YT and search and nobody is implementing this sub really. They are lead to believe that giant multi stacked magnets and large roll surrounds for longer throw will give them louder bass, while this one has an older style accordion surround and a not so large magnet, the eff level is ignored by most.

I dont have to have big cone excursion like them as the resonance helps keep the excursion in check in the lower 'and' upper bass region and the ports are outputing most of the work. The large roll surrounds, sure they allow a bigger excursion of the cone, but the large roll surround takes away active cone area where they use say a 12in cone on a 15in sub.

So Im looking at the eff levels as an important advantage. Just like if we were to try and design a transformer to initially test before we make a comparative one adding resonance, I think the initial test transformer and associated circuit needs to be designed to a very high effective efficiency, otherwise we may still be below 100% after adding resonance and fail to respect any gains in the midst of our goals here.

Like pulse motors. They are probably mostly very inefficient at producing mech measurable output. Sure some seem like wow, micro watts in and it turns. Wooptydoo. But drive something with it and you get not much either. So any possibly even small gains by somehow implementing resonance ends up far from our goal. Then yeah, resonance may look like its not the answer. But applying it to an already very efficient device may help a great deal when we are looking to breach 100%.

So I am telling about the eff of speakers as an example.  This box of 12in subs at 5200w will simply destroy my buddys truck with 6 15in subs at 15kw. He would need 60kw to do the same as the 12s running at their rms level.  Its gunna be a pitty party. He now thinks he will beat me with the same 12s and power in his friends suv. Im not going to let that happen. ;) The double chamber reflex enclosure will beat him with the same champ subs. And if the new sub coming today works good in the same box as the computer predicts, it will be a slaughter.   ;D

Mags

Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: TinselKoala on September 07, 2017, 08:53:59 PM
I am just getting started with coils! Actually did my first actual tesla coil today. It seems you gotta do few get get a good one. Top load is tin cans and the secondary has too few turns and not even from a one solid cable. But I got got the setup done so that I can switch secondaries and primaries easily.

Bought some wooden shelves, so I can get these PVC coils horizontal and bolted in one place. This way I can store them away easily.

Did you get it working?

Personally I have found that short, fat resonators work better than long skinny ones. Also it isn't necessary to use heavy wire for the secondary windings. Litz wire may improve the primary performance, but #22 or smaller enamel-coated magnet wire is plenty good for secondary winding.

This coil uses #27 magnet wire for its secondary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIZClhoU2Xk
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 07, 2017, 09:14:43 PM
Naah :( This is one of the simplest circuits so the fault might be between the chair and the keyboard.

I melted one C547B trying different transistors, so something is happening!

Hooked up 2n3055 with a heatsink and that does not get hot. Pot is set to 22k.

I will continue on it tomorrow.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: TinselKoala on September 07, 2017, 10:28:13 PM
Naah :( This is one of the simplest circuits so the fault might be between the chair and the keyboard.

I melted one C547B trying different transistors, so something is happening!

Hooked up 2n3055 with a heatsink and that does not get hot. Pot is set to 22k.

I will continue on it tomorrow.

Do you mean BC547B (Ic<300 mA) or 2SC547B (Ic<1A)? Neither one of these are really suitable because... as you found out... the Slayer circuit can draw a lot more than 1A especially if it isn't oscillating properly.

The 2n3055 should work though and it can handle the current.

For the 2n3055 you probably should be using a Base resistance value quite a bit less than 22k, depending on the supply voltage.

Can you post a schematic of the _exact_ circuit you are using? Did you try my suggestion of reversing the connection of the Primary coil?


Meanwhile... back at the ranch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcwLFNfxIe8
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: TinselKoala on September 07, 2017, 10:35:09 PM
@Mags
Your speakers are awesome. I've built a few bass-port and infinite baffle enclosures myself, long ago; supplied a few of my high school mates with awesome speaker cabinets for their stereos. But that was long ago, before you could get anything like the modern high-power portable amps and ultrastrong speaker magnets of today.

Now these big bass boomers in cars really annoy me as they drive by. Not because of the sound itself, but because of the massive distortion (trunk lids rattling, etc.) and the lousy music choices. I wonder if we could design some kind of interference field that I could use to put up a "bubble" around the house so those amps wouldn't work within, say, 100 feet of the property.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: citfta on September 07, 2017, 11:27:52 PM
@Mags
Your speakers are awesome. I've built a few bass-port and infinite baffle enclosures myself, long ago; supplied a few of my high school mates with awesome speaker cabinets for their stereos. But that was long ago, before you could get anything like the modern high-power portable amps and ultrastrong speaker magnets of today.

Now these big bass boomers in cars really annoy me as they drive by. Not because of the sound itself, but because of the massive distortion (trunk lids rattling, etc.) and the lousy music choices. I wonder if we could design some kind of interference field that I could use to put up a "bubble" around the house so those amps wouldn't work within, say, 100 feet of the property.

If you invent it I will gladly pay any reasonable fee up to a thousand dollars or so for one of your units.  It drives me crazy that clowns can drive down the road with the pretend music so loud I can hear it inside my basement workshop.  I think it would need a range of 1000 feet or so as I can easily hear some of them from well over 500 feet away.

Carroll
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 08, 2017, 12:20:15 PM
There are headphones and speaker systems, that will play the opposite sound waves that cancel those sounds. I haven't heard of any house size systems yet.

I was planning a "party fence" that you put around your festival or garden party. Play all the music you want and neighbors would not know about it.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 08, 2017, 03:45:13 PM

Can you post a schematic of the _exact_ circuit you are using? Did you try my suggestion of reversing the connection of the Primary coil?



Using TK's version of  slayer exciter from youtube.

2n3055 as transistor and IN4007 as diodes. Pot has been from 10k to 50k without results. Changed my prim coil to 8 turns and no change. Changed prim coil polarity and no change.

I have been poking around with my oscilloscope but nothing. I should be seeing something if I measure across the resistor right?
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: TinselKoala on September 08, 2017, 04:04:02 PM
Well, several things come to mind. First, you probably don't have enough turns to get a reasonable electrical length for your secondary coil, which means that the resonant frequency may be so high that the transistor and other circuit elements can't keep up. This system will work best with a resonant frequency under 1.5 MHz.  Second, your primary is mounted too low. It should not be below the bottom winding of the secondary; it should be maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch above the bottom winding.
Third, are you quite sure you have the 2n3055 connected properly, with the Base and Emitter leads properly oriented, and a good solid connection to the Case (Collector)?

The first thing I would suggest is to make another secondary coil using #24 or smaller magnet wire and at least 400 turns on a former of the diameter you are using. Second thing is to mount your 4-turn primary just barely above the bottom turns of the secondary, not below it. Third thing is to carefully verify the connections to the transistor. Don't use clipleads or other long wire lengths to connect your components!

If you can find an old big CRT television that someone is discarding, you can get magnet wire from the degaussing coil that is wrapped around the screen end of the picture tube. Also from the yoke coils, but this is more difficult to strip cleanly off the yoke.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 08, 2017, 06:51:58 PM
Well, several things come to mind. First, you probably don't have enough turns to get a reasonable electrical length for your secondary coil, which means that the resonant frequency may be so high that the transistor and other circuit elements can't keep up. This system will work best with a resonant frequency under 1.5 MHz.  Second, your primary is mounted too low. It should not be below the bottom winding of the secondary; it should be maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch above the bottom winding.
Third, are you quite sure you have the 2n3055 connected properly, with the Base and Emitter leads properly oriented, and a good solid connection to the Case (Collector)?

The first thing I would suggest is to make another secondary coil using #24 or smaller magnet wire and at least 400 turns on a former of the diameter you are using. Second thing is to mount your 4-turn primary just barely above the bottom turns of the secondary, not below it. Third thing is to carefully verify the connections to the transistor. Don't use clipleads or other long wire lengths to connect your components!

If you can find an old big CRT television that someone is discarding, you can get magnet wire from the degaussing coil that is wrapped around the screen end of the picture tube. Also from the yoke coils, but this is more difficult to strip cleanly off the yoke.

I think the secondary turns might be an issue. The primary was maybe too low. The 8 turn primary that I got now is 2 inches over the bottom secondary turn. I will try these out.

2n3055 should be connected properly. I think I got one bread board lying around, so I can get rid of the clip leads. Just wanted to get this working first and then solder it to a unit.

Thx man!
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 09, 2017, 12:52:27 PM
@Mags
Your speakers are awesome. I've built a few bass-port and infinite baffle enclosures myself, long ago; supplied a few of my high school mates with awesome speaker cabinets for their stereos. But that was long ago, before you could get anything like the modern high-power portable amps and ultrastrong speaker magnets of today.

Now these big bass boomers in cars really annoy me as they drive by. Not because of the sound itself, but because of the massive distortion (trunk lids rattling, etc.) and the lousy music choices. I wonder if we could design some kind of interference field that I could use to put up a "bubble" around the house so those amps wouldn't work within, say, 100 feet of the property.

Hey T

Those pics of subs are examples of the large roll surrounds which reduce the working surface area of the diaphragm. I do have the pioneer shown.

Noise canceling for that would probably cause an even louder event perpendicular in both directions of the line between you and the offender. :o Then all your neighbors will hate you also. ;) These days there is not as many of the boomers as there was in the 90s. The only reason they still exist is the car audio popularity has gone down hill on quality sound reproduction to hammerhead power competitions. Slamfest is the big one I believe. Car sound competitions have gone way down in popularity since the mid 2000s. Daytona Spring Break Nationals has dwindled from filling the expo center and parking lots to only a small section of maybe 100 vehicles on the speedway mixed in with the Spring Turkey car show.

Back in 1990 I moved to florida from near pittsburgh and those bass monsters that were down here then are what really got me into car audio. I needed to know how and why a paper cone moving back an forth could make things rattle in my apt from a block away.

In the beginning it took me a while to grasp the function of a tuned ported enclosure. Its become a sort of visual thing for me now.

In all that I wrote here the other day, Im a bit surprised that there isnt much comment on the resonance gains I described. In all the circuits and projects, this is actually showing very good (input vs output) gains using resonance.

I did a short search earlier for a conversion or comparison of watts to sound decebels. What Im looking for exactly is how much actual  power(W) is 1db of sound output.

The reason being is, I want to know what the sensitivity(db @1w) of say an ideal 10in speaker at 1w.  Like in the examples Ive laid out, many subwoofers out there are in the 80db range of eff and I have shown examples of some at 96db@1w and even 105db@1w.  There are some I have seen up to 112db@1w. So where is the limit? How many db@1w would a hypothetical 100% eff subwoofer be? Like is it 200db or even 300db where these real numbers I have given may be very inefficient in comparison. Didnt find that info yet. It seems to search out charts for rf signals even if i search for sound levels. Going to search more after this post.

Beyond all that, from what I have seen so far, whether it is a sub that is 83db @1w or 105db @1w, the gains assisted by implementing resonance is the same for all.

So the closer I get to a 100% eff sub, then I believe that resonance should be able to take it over the top. This possible prospect has me gleaming. And so far what I have shown is that resonance can and does give a gain. Now we just need to translate how this happens into circuit form.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: ramset on September 09, 2017, 05:07:24 PM
Mags
Be safe these next few days , Irma packs a big punch !!



 
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 11, 2017, 11:57:44 AM
Resonance systems are interesting. I have built countless of speakers in my life, and feel that I have something to offer, LOL :)


A bassreflex tuning, will harness the rear side of the driver cone. This resonance is counterforcing the speakerdriver, so the excursion of the cone will drop when it hits the resonance frequency of the port. However, the "engine" that drives the speakerdriver should be powerful enough to achieve gain. This gain is in fact not a gain, but the soundpressure that does not come out from inside a sealed enclosure, will come out via the port.


The efficiency of a speakerdriver is very very low. At 96dB/1W/1m, the efficiency is approx 1%. That means the energy in the moving air 1 meter away from the speaker driver, is 1% of the input energy to the driver. Then you can calculate the maximum efficiency in dB/1W/m at 100% efficiency.


Also remember that the air provides a very inefficient mechanical energy transfer. This is the main reason to the low efficiency.


Vidar
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 12, 2017, 08:36:26 AM
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=6178316B1&KC=B1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20010123&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=US&NR=6178316B1&KC=B1&FT=D&ND=3&date=20010123&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=TW&NR=200727310A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=20070716&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/description?CC=TW&NR=200727310A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=20070716&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP#)

0024]    Resonance is widely misunderstood. There are several slightly differing views across all the different scientific disciplines as to what resonance represents and means to a circuit. In radio theory, resonance is accepted as special frequency and phase relationships which create a self reinforcing "boosting" effect on the signal which closes the gap of peak to RMS (Root Mean Square) power of the signal. In one aspect of audio theory, resonance is a special relationship between frequency and the characteristics of matter in an object which creates a "bootstrapping" amplification effect which causes a catastrophic destructive effect on the material. In energy theory, resonance is accepted as the alignment of the phases between the voltage and amperage of a circuit which creates an idealized energy state. This state is determined by the calculation of the power factor of the running circuit. 

( a freedom fighter ?! : http://people.com/archive/contempt-of-court-or-academic-freedom-the-question-sends-a-stubborn-georgia-professor-to-jail-vol-14-no-13/ (http://people.com/archive/contempt-of-court-or-academic-freedom-the-question-sends-a-stubborn-georgia-professor-to-jail-vol-14-no-13/) )

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„If I can’t dance, I don’t want to be part of your revolution

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Accordingly, as the elemental circuit size is reduced to the order of the electron mean free path the production of kilowatts of power output per square centimeter of surface area of layer is obtained.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 12, 2017, 04:07:00 PM
Resonance systems are interesting. I have built countless of speakers in my life, and feel that I have something to offer, LOL :)


A bassreflex tuning, will harness the rear side of the driver cone. This resonance is counterforcing the speakerdriver, so the excursion of the cone will drop when it hits the resonance frequency of the port. However, the "engine" that drives the speakerdriver should be powerful enough to achieve gain. This gain is in fact not a gain, but the soundpressure that does not come out from inside a sealed enclosure, will come out via the port.


The efficiency of a speakerdriver is very very low. At 96dB/1W/1m, the efficiency is approx 1%. That means the energy in the moving air 1 meter away from the speaker driver, is 1% of the input energy to the driver. Then you can calculate the maximum efficiency in dB/1W/m at 100% efficiency.


Also remember that the air provides a very inefficient mechanical energy transfer. This is the main reason to the low efficiency.


Vidar

Hey Vidar

Do you have a formula that expresses the mere 1% of 96db @1w?  More as in how did you arrive at that number? That is what im really interested in. Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 12, 2017, 05:25:33 PM

I know an engineer who worked in the Norwegian speaker factory SEAS, one of the world leading manufacturer in high quality speaker parts. See www.seas.no (http://www.seas.no) for more information.
The efficiency in % is an expression that depends on temperature, pressure, humidity - the mass of the air at a given standarized form.


I have no formula, but the efficiency was once expressed in both SPL and %. I am quite sure you can google the mechanical transfer function between a moving diaphragm/membrane, and the surrounding air. Shorter the distance to the speaker will increase the mechanical efficiency.


The mechanical efficiency of the speaker driver itself is much higher, but still quite low. It depends on loss in suspension, resistance in the voicecoil, flux density through the coil, moving mass.


Vidar

Hey Vidar

Do you have a formula that expresses the mere 1% of 96db @1w?  More as in how did you arrive at that number? That is what im really interested in. Thanks

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 12, 2017, 06:41:38 PM
Well, several things come to mind. First, you probably don't have enough turns to get a reasonable electrical length for your secondary coil, which means that the resonant frequency may be so high that the transistor and other circuit elements can't keep up. This system will work best with a resonant frequency under 1.5 MHz.  Second, your primary is mounted too low. It should not be below the bottom winding of the secondary; it should be maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch above the bottom winding.
Third, are you quite sure you have the 2n3055 connected properly, with the Base and Emitter leads properly oriented, and a good solid connection to the Case (Collector)?

The first thing I would suggest is to make another secondary coil using #24 or smaller magnet wire and at least 400 turns on a former of the diameter you are using. Second thing is to mount your 4-turn primary just barely above the bottom turns of the secondary, not below it. Third thing is to carefully verify the connections to the transistor. Don't use clipleads or other long wire lengths to connect your components!

If you can find an old big CRT television that someone is discarding, you can get magnet wire from the degaussing coil that is wrapped around the screen end of the picture tube. Also from the yoke coils, but this is more difficult to strip cleanly off the yoke.

I remade the circuit. Got a 220R resistor in series with the pot, so the resistance won't go to 0 ever. I am rewinding the coil with 0,5mm wire and 800 turns. Bought 2 IKEA salad bowls for the top load. Shitload of stuff arrived from China, so I might try to fire this up in a few days after I take inventory. It takes sometimes 2 months for stuff to arrive so I gotta figure out why I ordered some of this shit...
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 13, 2017, 05:59:13 AM
I know an engineer who worked in the Norwegian speaker factory SEAS, one of the world leading manufacturer in high quality speaker parts. See www.seas.no (http://www.seas.no) for more information.
The efficiency in % is an expression that depends on temperature, pressure, humidity - the mass of the air at a given standarized form.


I have no formula, but the efficiency was once expressed in both SPL and %. I am quite sure you can google the mechanical transfer function between a moving diaphragm/membrane, and the surrounding air. Shorter the distance to the speaker will increase the mechanical efficiency.


The mechanical efficiency of the speaker driver itself is much higher, but still quite low. It depends on loss in suspension, resistance in the voicecoil, flux density through the coil, moving mass.


Vidar

Hey Vidar

I had worked with a couple guys back when I was just getting more into sound quality. They had a shop across the way from mine. They were home speaker developers. They would develop several different sets each year and take them to a trade show, ces in vegas, to promote their products. They were very set in their ways. They believed in point source, strictly just a left an right on stands and no subwoofer needed. Odd thing was their ideal car setups compared to tried and true tested ideals of my time, at the time. They would set the tweeters in the rear deck and mids in the front. They demoed it for me and i didnt 'see' it. No matter what they did with the adjustments or moving the tweeters, I did not experience the stage in their car, but I did with their home speaker models. And they did not give me daps on my kick panel speakers in large enough kick enclosures ported to 60hz, of which did produce a stage you could see and feel out over the hood of the car(88 grand prix). The ported tuning enabled me to crossover high pass at 80hz, but it still played flat just below 60hz, without having to expend a lot of power below 80hz. ;) Then My sub, 15in in 3cuft tuned to 27hz ported was sealed to the frame behind the rear seat with 2 4in ports up into the rear deck. No trunk rattle, as Tk mentioned he detested.  After about a week they wanted to hear my car again with some of their test cd's and they finally caved and liked it a lot.

The big problem in the car is the difference in distance from all the drivers, especially from left to right. Some try to correct it by putting the front stage up on the dash, but the glass causes more issues than a dual 32ch eq can solve. Even time alignment only helps with optimum placement and 'angles' of the drivers. First is to get the fr mid and tweet (kept close together)as far forward as possible to help minimize L and R distance differences, and to work an angle where the right is aimed toward the drivers head and the left to the pass head and work in that zone to get the best you can. On axis is the loudest and more off axis less loud. So this helps balance L and R perceived loudness, then some tilt upward can what I call throw the staging up over the dash. Im an only front speakers and sub kinda guy. Too many speakers screws it all up. In some cases where the install doesnt have the possibility of building good kick panels and the front speakers are lower than Id like, Ill put in some rears with no tweets and just bring up the gain till the front stage comes up but you cant detect the rears.  Been in it seriously for 25years.

Back to the eff. 

Yeah I get that at 1m away the comparison to the input has diminished. So lets say we were to measure it at 1in, or closer if need be, are we still super inefficient? The 1m spec is relative to that distance. I want to get down to the nitty grittty of what is the actual eff of the speaker. The 1m spec, just because it lost so much over the 1m distance is still directly related to the actual ouput of the cone. So I think the 1% is a bit misleading to say as you have as to the actual in vs out of the speaker. If the speaker were actually 99% eff, its not fair to describe it as even 50%eff let alone 1%. What ever a 100% ideal speaker produces at 1m is still a good number for affecting the air at that distance. 100% eff speaker should be able to produce a particular db level at 1m every time. So that 1m number is what Im looking for to be able to see the actual eff of known drivers out there.

In all this as I have explained earlier Id like to translate all this to an electronic circuit that the first aim would be initial eff then adding resonance to increase that efficiency. As i said earlier, if the sub were in an infinite baffle, the actual raw in and out is what it is, just the way it is. When we go vent tuned, we get a boost out vs in. Then when we go dual chamber tuned to the intended low tuning freq and also rings an octave up, those 2 complement each other and increase the gain for each. One of the designs has just an alternate ported chamber within the enclosure. I need to build it to see what goes on there and understand it more.


Ill look more for the answer. Thanks for the info

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 13, 2017, 10:36:30 AM
Mag,


Have in mind that a resonance system is depended on its Q-value. This value is very hign on systems with long lasting sustain. When you load the system, this value drops like a rock.
An ideal system have 180° phase offset between current and voltage. A resistive system has 0° offset.
The system will be between 0° and 180°, and never as much as 180°.


Vidar
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: tysb3 on September 14, 2017, 09:25:07 PM
Make A Vortex Cannon!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30yK6Qf4dZA
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 14, 2017, 10:13:20 PM
Make A Vortex Cannon!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30yK6Qf4dZA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30yK6Qf4dZA)

In the 70s there was a toy gun that had a big funnel with the small end as the spout and a pull back to load lever on the top. Just looked on ebay and they show some but not the exact same. This funnel had like a 2in fr spout and the funnel was a smooth curve arc from the big side to the fr spout. You can feel the air ball hit you just like the vid shows. Neat stuff.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 15, 2017, 02:43:30 PM
Hmm I am searching for the resonant freq on my secondary. Can I just plug a function generator to my primary and crank up the frequency, or do I need some circuitry to protect the func generator? I mean that prim coil is just a short circuit.

What I was thinking is that I control the slayer exciter's transistor base with that function generator. Would that work?
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: citfta on September 15, 2017, 05:43:59 PM
Hi Mags,

Your posts about acoustical resonance reminded me of something my brother and I did back in the 1970s.  We had both just gotten into Ham Radio and lived about 200 miles apart.  At that time you had to learn Morse code and had to use it until you passed a higher level of license.  The band we needed to use because of our distance was usually pretty noisy especially in the summer time with storms and the static they caused.

Of course in those days there was no digital signal processing although there were such things as band-pass filters.  Neither of us could afford the expense of the added filters so we looked for an alternative.

We found an article in one of the Ham radio magazines that told how to make an acoustic filter.  All we needed was a cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels and a small speaker that would just fit at the end of the paper tube.  We cut some slots in the sides of the tube an inch or so from one end of the tube.  I don't remember the exact distance.  We mounted the tube with the end where the slots were down and the speaker on the top end.  This created a chamber that was resonant at a frequency that made the dits and dahs of the code nice and clear and rejected almost all the noise.  It was amazing to hear how much clearer the signal was with such a simple device.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 15, 2017, 09:14:59 PM
Hi Mags,

Your posts about acoustical resonance reminded me of something my brother and I did back in the 1970s.  We had both just gotten into Ham Radio and lived about 200 miles apart.  At that time you had to learn Morse code and had to use it until you passed a higher level of license.  The band we needed to use because of our distance was usually pretty noisy especially in the summer time with storms and the static they caused.

Of course in those days there was no digital signal processing although there were such things as band-pass filters.  Neither of us could afford the expense of the added filters so we looked for an alternative.

We found an article in one of the Ham radio magazines that told how to make an acoustic filter.  All we needed was a cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels and a small speaker that would just fit at the end of the paper tube.  We cut some slots in the sides of the tube an inch or so from one end of the tube.  I don't remember the exact distance.  We mounted the tube with the end where the slots were down and the speaker on the top end.  This created a chamber that was resonant at a frequency that made the dits and dahs of the code nice and clear and rejected almost all the noise.  It was amazing to hear how much clearer the signal was with such a simple device.

Take care,
Carroll

Nice. Reminded me of a time we had a 12ft long piece of 6in pvc pipe and if you put a speaker at one end and slowly sweep audio freq there are points that the freq just jumps over some freq to an upper freq. Like it would not play that particular band of freq. Instead of a continuous freq increase there is a jump at that point and at other octaves and harmonics.

I am showing all this as proof of positive gain using resonance. Ive played with resonance circuits and I dont believe that I was going about it the proper way that took advantage of the gains of resonance. So I have to think differently on it all now. The speaker resonance gain needs to be examined as to why we can make really good use of the resonance gain there but we havent with resonance circuitry. Like a tesla coil. If it is resonant then it will put out more than a non resonant coil by great margins. There are many that dont take great notice of this gain in that transformer. What if resonance was added into our power grid transformers? Would we see the gain, input vs output, like we can see in a tuned tesla coil?????

If our grid system is just running like a out of tune tesla coil, then what can we say about the eff of those grid transformers in comparison to say a tuned grid transformer? There has to be something to it and I believe we have to possibly try things differently somehow than we have been. So Im delving into the audio example to get a better feel for it all and hopefully something good comes out of it.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: itsu on September 15, 2017, 09:15:32 PM
Hmm I am searching for the resonant freq on my secondary. Can I just plug a function generator to my primary and crank up the frequency, or do I need some circuitry to protect the func generator? I mean that prim coil is just a short circuit.

What I was thinking is that I control the slayer exciter's transistor base with that function generator. Would that work?

Belfior,

that prim coil is NOT just a short circuit, at a fairly low frequency it starts to be an inductor which has impedance (reactance) ontop of its DC resistance.
Surely at the frequency your slayer / kacher / tesla like sec. coil will resonate which will be around the upper hundreds of KHz.


So you can use that prim coil (disconnected from the circuit) to feed it with your FG and scan for the resonance frequency of your secondary coil (scope probe to
this unconnected sec. coil).

Or you can leave the prim coil connected and just use a cliplead wire and wrap that loosely 1 or 2 turns around the sec coil and feed that with your FG.
Depending on the number of turns on your sec. coil it will show a single high sine wave peak at resonance, even when feeding in a square wave.


But knowing the resonance frequency will not help much as the circuit you are using is an auto resonance circuit, it should automatically start resonating
at the resonance frequency of that sec. coil.
On the other hand, if it turns out that your sec. coil resonance frequency is above 3Mhz, then you have a problem as the 2n3055 has its limit there.

Using your FG to drive the transistor is not to be recommended (nor needed) as it probable WILL blow your FG frontend.
A buffer inbetween your FG and transistor would be needed, but again, this is not the way to go.


Regards Itsu

Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 15, 2017, 11:12:39 PM

But knowing the resonance frequency will not help much as the circuit you are using is an auto resonance circuit, it should automatically start resonating
at the resonance frequency of that sec. coil.
On the other hand, if it turns out that your sec. coil resonance frequency is above 3Mhz, then you have a problem as the 2n3055 has its limit there.


Well I kinda moved on already when I saw some Don Smith documents and circuits. So no more autoresonating. I used Smith's methods of calculating the secondary. If 16 MHz is the target freq I get 75,25 / 16 = 4,705m for the secondary length. I spent a day to get my secondary to 4,705m and primary to 1,176m like Smith.pfd tells me. Then some other dude says you don't need 1/4 wave length secondary and primary can be what ever...

So I sweeped my my 3 different primaries with my FG and oscilloscope shows 2,44MHz is the peak secondary voltage.

Now that I know this I might go back to the autoresonating version, since that freq is below 2n3055 specs and should work. Only thing I have gotten so far with the slayer exciter autoresonator is that if I turn the pot too low the transistor gets hot. I can't get anything on the scope no matter where I put the probes. I get some DC values and I thought the MHz is just out of my scope's range



Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: itsu on September 16, 2017, 10:20:19 AM
Belfior,


well, good luck with your "Don Smith documents and circuits", there are tons of those, all telling something different.
Again here, to my knowledge, nobody was able to replicate any result from a Don Smith setup.



Your 2.44Mhz resonance frequency of your sec. coil looks plausible, but is rather high as normal they work around or below 1Mhz
How many turns does your sec. coil has, and what is the wire gauge?

As TinselKoala already mentioned to you earlier, those 2n3055 are not all following those specs, there are bad ones out there, so it
very well could be that your present 2N3055 does not reach that 2.4Mhz frequency, so perhaps add some turns to lower the frequency to 1Mhz.

Your scope should be good for 20Mhz, see that user manual i linked to you, scope the base, it should show some activity, try to touch the base with a metal screwdriver to induce some spikes to get it kickstarted.

Itsu 
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 16, 2017, 12:49:36 PM
Belfior,


well, good luck with your "Don Smith documents and circuits", there are tons of those, all telling something different.
Again here, to my knowledge, nobody was able to replicate any result from a Don Smith setup.



Your 2.44Mhz resonance frequency of your sec. coil looks plausible, but is rather high as normal they work around or below 1Mhz
How many turns does your sec. coil has, and what is the wire gauge?

As TinselKoala already mentioned to you earlier, those 2n3055 are not all following those specs, there are bad ones out there, so it
very well could be that your present 2N3055 does not reach that 2.4Mhz frequency, so perhaps add some turns to lower the frequency to 1Mhz.

Your scope should be good for 20Mhz, see that user manual i linked to you, scope the base, it should show some activity, try to touch the base with a metal screwdriver to induce some spikes to get it kickstarted.

Itsu

Thx itsu,

I think we need good luck with all of these devices. If I ever get any further with this stuff I promise to publish all my findings as public domain with full schematics and videos. I find it repulsive that people claim to have found free energy and they are keeping their secrets to themselves so they can make money out of it. Give interviews, go to conferences or build the devices for people if you need the money.

I am having a good time trying all kinds of stupid things out. I believe that experimenting is the only way to happiness. Take books and other peoples advice as gossip and only believe in your own experiments. I find it quite relaxing that I have no memory of any electrical studies anymore, so I am just poking around in the darkness.

I have scoped the base, over the resistor pot and all the spots I dare to probe. When the pot is set to 0 the transistor has only the 220R resistor protecting it. Then it goes hot really fast, so something is happening. I will change my secondary to another one that resonates at 280k. If the secondary coil is still silent I have to assume to transistor is toast.

I think I should be able to put the scope probes over the pot and get some action there? I mean the point is that when base gets some voltage it opens the collector/emitter line and no more current goes through the base -> base closes. I should be able to see this when probing over the pot. My scope should be in no danger, since I am feeding with 12V DC? Pot is at 5k Ohms

PS. Bought some interesting books on coils and Tesla stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1236023641/ref=pe_3187911_189395841_TE_dp_1
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 16, 2017, 01:28:19 PM
We have light! It seems I had 2 problems with my slayer exciter. My primary was still too low in relation to the secondary. This I figured out by using my FG on the primary, moving it and scoping the secondary.

Second fault is in one of the solders. I have a cold joint under the board. It goes on-off so it was ok when measuring the joints and not ok when using the exciter. This I found out by hitting the board in frustration and the oscilloscope trace jumped. Nice even trace on the scope and the transistor is mildly warm. Jiihaa!

Thank you all!
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 16, 2017, 01:34:25 PM
also it seems the Universe is on my side and it is pushing me towards success. Look what the local car & boat parts shop is selling. Ready made pancake primary coils! Just needs a few spacers.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 16, 2017, 08:31:28 PM

Just don't start to bend that copper tube too much as it hardens when you bend it.
Breaking fluid tubes are made of annealed copper (warmed up and slowly cooled down to prevent stress in it). So when you work too much with it, it hardens and will be hard to reshape.
I've done lots of repairs on breaking systems, and know how hard it can be to fix a proper shape to it :)


You can allways warm it up, cool it slowly, to obtain a soft material again

also it seems the Universe is on my side and it is pushing me towards success. Look what the local car & boat parts shop is selling. Ready made pancake primary coils! Just needs a few spacers.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 16, 2017, 09:04:42 PM
Ok. Found it!  ;)

Vidar was close. it is 2.5% eff if the sensitivity is 96db @1W. But, 100%eff If it is 112db @1w. :o   So now we know what a 100%eff sub or speaker looks like eff wise.

So now I can set my goal in that direction. So far the highest sensitivity speaker I have seen is 112db @1w. Have not looked at all speakers yet. Sooo many to check out.

So the 112db speaker I have seen is 100%eff.  ???   Can that level be breached? Is that speaker an example of the possible eff that beats all? ???

I have to go through the list I have at home in the lap and Ill post that speaker here.

Sooo now, Im willing to purchase said speaker almost no matter the cost. I want to see what makes it tick even if I have to take it apart. Can it be improved upon??

Before I take it apart, I would test it for the actual spec( I have a db meter) and then test with resonance of porting an enclosure. In the link below the guy shows a chart for the increase in db as you successively double the power. Add 3db for each doubling. Found this stuff with just the right phrasing of the search words. Took a bit.

 https://everything2.com/title/Speaker+efficiency (https://everything2.com/title/Speaker+efficiency)

So this shows what I have said that a speaker will increase in db by doubling power at a 3db rate, well according to the mech limitations of the driver naturally.

If that 112db can be breached, how far can we go?  132db @1w would be a 10,000% efficiency! ;)

So now I dont really feel downed buy the possibility of Vidars 1% eff at 96db claim, of which is actually 2.5%. I have a 105db sub sitting on the bench breaking in at 20hz free air. Subs tend to get louder after a breaking in period and loosens up the suspension to a point where the real specs are arrived at. Learned it from a car stereo review guy that would do the 20hz breaking before doing a listening test.

Im feeling like Im in a happy zone. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 16, 2017, 09:15:39 PM
https://www.google.com/patents/US2813242 (https://www.google.com/patents/US2813242)

 The invention centers around my discovery that it is practicable to construct operative transistor circuits that are able to abstract from the atmosphere suflicient electromagnetic energy to provide all necessary supply voltages and currents for their own operation. Circuits and devices powered according to my invention will operate indefinitely without any local power source whatever.
 I have successfully constructed and demonstrated such circuits. For example, I have constructed a batteryless transistor radio receiver on which I have listened to either nearby or distant broadcast stations as desired, using either headphones or a loudspeaker; this receiver has been powered entirely by electromagnetic energy abstracted from the atmosphere.
 From the successful operation of this receiver, and from other experimental work, it becomes clear that, by the methods and means of the invention, a great variety of practical and useful transistor circuits can be powered entirely by energy abstracted from the atmosphere.

to citing documents:
https://www.google.com/patents/WO2008005628A2?cl=en (https://www.google.com/patents/WO2008005628A2?cl=en)
Assuming 2,300 active thunderstorms at any given moment [9], the estimated average total power output of thunderstorm activity is approximately 1.44x1014 W. A hurricane's power generation is estimated at about 1014 W [10]; in comparison, at present the total electrical power generation capacity of the man-made power generators in the world is 3.625x1012 W, [11] a small fraction of the power generated in the troposphere by thunderstorm activity. This suggests that the density of atmospheric electrical activity may be high enough to tap, and indicates that atmospheric electricity, if harnessed, could meet a great proportion the energy needs of mankind. This invention describes a new method, to convert atmospheric electrical energy into a useable electric voltage and current for powering conventional electric devices.

https://www.google.com/patents/WO1993020589A1?cl=en (https://www.google.com/patents/WO1993020589A1?cl=en)
The reversible thermoelectric converter can be operated for converting thermal energy to electric energy, as a heat pump or a refrigerator or as an amplifier. A planar array of reversible thermoelectric converter elements provides a desired output voltage and current

By way of example, an input signal of 6 microwatts with a bandwidth of 1 gigahertz is applied to diode 20 either as thermal energy or electric energy, and thermal energy is applied to diode 10. A signal-to-noise ration of 60 dB is obtained for the input signal for a temperature T of the cold diode 20 of 300° K. For a temperature
Tr of hot electrons in diode 10 of 6000° K, the amplification of the input signal is 26 dB, which gives an output signal of 2.4 milliwatts. The amplified output signal also has a 60 dB signal-to-noise ratio.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 16, 2017, 09:25:17 PM
https://www.google.com/patents/US2813242 (https://www.google.com/patents/US2813242)

 The invention centers around my discovery that it is practicable to construct operative transistor circuits that are able to abstract from the atmosphere suflicient electromagnetic energy to provide all necessary supply voltages and currents for their own operation. Circuits and devices powered according to my invention will operate indefinitely without any local power source whatever.
 I have successfully constructed and demonstrated such circuits. For example, I have constructed a batteryless transistor radio receiver on which I have listened to either nearby or distant broadcast stations as desired, using either headphones or a loudspeaker; this receiver has been powered entirely by electromagnetic energy abstracted from the atmosphere.
 From the successful operation of this receiver, and from other experimental work, it becomes clear that, by the methods and means of the invention, a great variety of practical and useful transistor circuits can be powered entirely by energy abstracted from the atmosphere.

I have a book that shows a transistor batteryless AM radio. There is an FM circuit to that I believe has 2 transistors.

I wonder if we added more resonant circuits to them 'some way', like say the dual chamber reflex box, or even the 6th order box where both chambers could be tuned close to each other in freq producing way more output per power in, if we could get more from those powerless radios. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 16, 2017, 09:46:29 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal-to-noise_ratio)

                    myriads of converting circuits ?
               this is called a "quantum dots array"

                          similar technique:
               https://www.google.pt/search?client=firefox-b&dcr=0&q=nantenna&oq=nantenna&gs_l=psy-ab.3...3821.4615.0.5242.2.2.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.0.0....0._h9jb8RRQiA
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 16, 2017, 10:02:09 PM
Efficiency in speakers are very relative. We talk about 1 meter from the source. Half meter measurement distance of a 112dB@1m sensitivity speaker does not mean that the measured 118dB is more than 100% efficiency.


Horn loaded speakers easily exceed 112dB/1W@1m because the horn does not have a 4pi distribution of sound.
Also, a large area of the membrane emits a more narrow pressure wave, so a measurement at 1 meter might not mean a difference at 0.5 meter measurement by as much as 6dB.


Vidar.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 16, 2017, 10:41:38 PM
Efficiency in speakers are very relative. We talk about 1 meter from the source. Half meter measurement distance of a 112dB@1m sensitivity speaker does not mean that the measured 118dB is more than 100% efficiency.


Horn loaded speakers easily exceed 112dB/1W@1m because the horn does not have a 4pi distribution of sound.
Also, a large area of the membrane emits a more narrow pressure wave, so a measurement at 1 meter might not mean a difference at 0.5 meter measurement by as much as 6dB.


Vidar.

I know that the 112db 100% eff is at 1 meter and that is just relative to that distance, but it is a standard measurement procedure and if at 1 meter it is 112db @1w then that tells us that the efficiency of the speakers input vs real output is 100%. Same energy in is same energy out. Like I said earlier, coreless motors are some of the most eff motors and these are coreless, meaning that the armature for each has only the windings and light weight but strong mounting support of the windings. Like the pancake cooling fan motor TK has shown recently, the flat disk armature is basically its windings encased in a thin disk of plastic, possibly Bakelite type or something close to it. Very efficient and able to accelerate or change speeds very quickly.

But, a very eff way can be made to be less eff by design. From what I read increased flux density will increase a speakers eff. So the pancake motor has a ceramic ring magnet that has opposing poles in say 6 pie sections. So what ever eff that motor is, it can be improved upon by substituting neos for each pole. Or buy pie section neos to remake the ring, NSNSNS.  So could the 112db @1w speaker eff be increased by installing stronger magnets?  I dont care about sound quality and more damping by doing so and so on, Im just interested in power in and power out even if it is just 1 freq. A ported box with a Q of 7 produces the flattest response for sound quality purposes down to the bottom tuned freq. Here again I dont care if it only plays 60hz and is useless for audio. Im just looking at in and out powers. Pioneer has 3 suggested box types for the pro 12. Sealed enclosure, vented tuned port and what they call turbo. It is a 4th order bandpass where the sub is mounted in a small sealed enclosure inside a larger enclosure that is port tuned to 60hz. The response is just a huge spike peak at 60hz and the rest is useless for sound reproduction. Why do they show this turbo box? Because at the DB Drag Races at car audio shows, the upper limit for db drag is 60hz. ;) That is all that box is good for is DB drag to see who is louder. And having that 105db advantage for a $100 sub, it can beat a $600 massive 15in 88db@1w sub playing 5kw with only 800w on the pro 12.  Funny thing is nobody seems to try it cuz most of them dont understand what Im telling you all here. The pro 2 is a shrimpy looking thing compared to the 15in that is longer than it is wide in dia and 60lb.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 16, 2017, 10:51:38 PM
        "We talk about 1 meter from the source."
It is common in physics and technics to conditionize the measurement.
For comparison of results by strictly same tests methods.

Clearly 1,5 or 0,5 meter distance gives other results,
different humidity,test chamber/room volume et cet. also !

https://www.google.com/patents/US5130608 (https://www.google.com/patents/US5130608)
https://www.google.com/patents/US5942858 (https://www.google.com/patents/US5942858)
In a specific application of the above-outlined principle of load control, the invention provides that the load is an electronic horn or siren.
Electronic sirens are known. An electronic transducer (loudspeaker) is driven by means of a modulation stage via an amplifier final stage. The mode of operation of this known electronic siren is basically analog. When commonly required loudnesses are to be achieved (e.g. 115 dB at a distance of 32 m), considerable power must be fed to the transducer. It is necessary to adapt the chracteristic output impedance of the final stage of the amplifier to the impedance of the load. This causes considerable losses.
The electronic siren according to the invention comprises a needle pulse generator which, via an electronic switch of the final stage, connects the electroacoustic transducer to a voltage source, in particular a battery

The load L in the instant case specifically is an ohmic load, in particular an electric incandescent bulb. The embodiments described herein are also suitable for inductive and capacitive loads or complex loads (loads of a combination of ohmic, inductive and capacitive elements). However, the invention is used in particular with ohmic, inductive and capacitive loads with low efficiency, such as incandescent bulbs, electro-acoustic and piezoelectric transformers and the like.
As an example of the application in an electroacoustic transducer as load, an electronic siren will be described further below, which constitutes a good example of the excellent energy exploitation


Practical tests show that an electronic siren 100 according to the invention can produce the acoustic power of a conventional electronic siren with only about one third of the electric power. It can thus be built with electronic parts of lower price.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 16, 2017, 11:16:33 PM
Here is the computer model of the pro 12 at 1w below in the recommended Turbo enclosure by Pioneer. The peak is at 118.75db @1w.  100% efficiency is 112db@1w.  There ya go. Boom!! Overunity! ;) How can we say it is not? Ive provided most all the sources here that show it is correct.

The key was me finding that conversion calculator today. Magluving it. ;D

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 16, 2017, 11:29:16 PM
With just a bit of fiddling I changed the sealed internal enclosure to .3cu and the larger ported enclosure to 4cu. just changed box sizes.

123.37db@1w    That equates to 1370.88% eff of input vs output.  :o ;D   Can anyone tell me if Im wrong here? If so please provide sources and references for your arguments.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 16, 2017, 11:44:32 PM
The efficiency cannot be greater than the mechanical force x exursion of the actual speaker cone.
If you put two 112dB speakers in the same sealed enclosure, and power up one of them at resonance frequency, do you expect the same electrical energy output of the other speaker?


Even if you short circuit the second speaker, the powered speaker will still play. This proves that the speaker cannot have 100% efficiency.
You have 100% efficiency when the system (with one short circuit driver) is perfectly scilence no matter how many Watt you put in.


Vidar
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 17, 2017, 12:09:49 AM
                        tubi or not tubi ::)
          https://www.abacus-electronics.de/ (https://www.abacus-electronics.de/)
                          Joachim Rieder

                     interestant,but not the target
          https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19860312&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=EP&NR=0173724A1&KC=A1&ND=5# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19860312&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=EP&NR=0173724A1&KC=A1&ND=5#)
                        but here
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19900104&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=DE&NR=3821856A1&KC=A1&ND=4# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19900104&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=DE&NR=3821856A1&KC=A1&ND=4#)

It is known how a capacitor behaves on the network. Although this apparent current passes through, it does not consume any current. A capacitor absorbs current during the amplitude increase and supplies exactly this current during the amplitude drop back to the mains. However, if the capacitor is switched to the mains in the charged state during the amplitude drop, the charge is discharged into the mains, even if the charge does not originally originate from the network. When the mains voltage is zeroed, the capacitor must be disconnected from the mains again because otherwise it would be recharged from the mains with opposite polarity. Thus, when the capacitor is charged before any amplitude waste from any current source, and is discharged into the network during the amplitude drop, current is supplied to the network. If this capacitor makes this during the positive half-wave, a second capacitor can do this during the negative half-wave. The principle also works with only one half wave. In order to operate this principle, it is not necessary for the capacitor to be charged from the current source to the peak voltage, but any charge can be supplied with an arbitrarily lower voltage into the grid if either the residual charge is carried out up to the grid peak voltage or from the grid Capacitor is not connected to the mains until the mains voltage drops below the capacitor voltage. The capacitor is charged in the half wave break. The principle therefore supplies current to the network for as long as half the time of any number of periods. It actually produces the current consumed by phase-cut control, and it operates as a capacitive phase shifter. Both are very welcome in public networks. Due to the parallel operation, the primary energy carriers which are already present are used as memories and thus a further problem of regenerative energy forms is solved.  A practically constructed system uses triacs as switches, which are ignited by a mains frequency-controlled electronics.  The capacitors have no irrational size even at high power. Although these capacitors are operated only polarized, so-called MP capacitors should be used for safety reasons.  Two capacitors with 167 uF each provide a current of 10 amperes during the half-period at 50 Hz. This corresponds to a power of 1100 watts at 220 volts effective mains voltage when fully charged to the mains voltage. For this output power of a maximum of 20 watts is required. This principle also works effectively when considerably less regenerative energy is available in time.

     ex-urs-ion : jeah,Baerig gut

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-11/true-reactive-and-apparent-power/ (https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/alternating-current/chpt-11/true-reactive-and-apparent-power/)

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anergie
            Anergie + Exergie (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exergie) = Energie (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energie)
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 17, 2017, 12:42:02 AM
The efficiency cannot be greater than the mechanical force x exursion of the actual speaker cone.
If you put two 112dB speakers in the same sealed enclosure, and power up one of them at resonance frequency, do you expect the same electrical energy output of the other speaker?


Even if you short circuit the second speaker, the powered speaker will still play. This proves that the speaker cannot have 100% efficiency.
You have 100% efficiency when the system (with one short circuit driver) is perfectly scilence no matter how many Watt you put in.


Vidar

I can understand that. But you are loading it differently and very badly to a point of stressing out the speaker as a whole and contorting the cone, inverting the rubber surrounds due to the pressures. That test would have to be the coil formers in direct physical connection with each other. Like if we had 2 of the 112db subs that are supposedly 100%eff this would test the drive motor of the speaker directly  If we took the pancake motor and put the armature in a vice to keep it from spinning, motor mounted to bench, then eff is 0%. Thats what I was saying earlier that its possible we need to look at how we load resonant circuits for the gain on output to be attained properly for best eff. Moving air, making sound waves through the air is the speakers load. It takes power to make the cone move back and forth at 1kw to rumble the window frames and nick nack on the mantle and metal garage doors in every house in the whole neighborhood. Do that with a 1kw fan, or power tool, what ever. The energy is realized at great distances in all directions. So we cannot say that moving air as a load is not a realistic load. Ask TK what he thinks of the amount of energy his home absorbs and rattles things from a distance when a guy booms down the street. Its real power.


Also, I had found in my resonant pendulum experiments where the pen had a magnet on the left side and one on the right, identical mags, and identical speaker coils for a driver and gen/pickup coil. I was able to get more voltage out of the gen coil than the supply was putting in the drive coil. Just that fact of more voltage should suggest something and we have seen many times if we put 2 identical dc motors shaft to shaft, the output voltage from the gen side will never ever reach the voltage of the drive motor and that is unloaded. And the other interesting thing I found with the pendulum experiments was that the positioning of the identical speaker coils to each magnet had to be a bit different in order to get the higher voltage out than in. What does that mean you may ask? Im in the belief that a dc motor that is specifically designed to be most eff at being a motor is not the best design for being a gen, and probably vice verse. I set the driver coil and pendulum to positions for max throw at given input, then bring in the gen coil for max voltage. Then I adjust both a bit at a time and I got more out than in on the voltage unloaded. Show me that you or anyone has accomplished that without using resonance and Ill quit the forum. lol. It cant be done without the resonance factored in. The positionings are not the same for each side. All using the identical mags and coils for the drive and the gen side.

Im dead set that me being able to get more voltage out on the gen side vs the input side at the freq of pendulum resonance is a big accomplishment. Nobody has shown that with an identical driver running a gen of the same magnets and coils, and they are operating at the same freq and speed of movement, not geared up in speed on the gen side. Im talking same as shaft to shaft identical motors. Now there may be a way to alter one of the motors to be a better gen, similar to me making the critical adjustments to the drive side and the gen side of the resonant pendulum experiments, but without resonance the altered motor to be a better gen still will not come close to the drive motor input voltage.


In the end, what Im hoping for is the possibility of 112db@1w may not be the upper limit. OU may be simpler than we think. Ill get into that later on. As in it might be possible that the speaker could be modified or redesigned to go above 112db@1w.   Like if the speaker really puts out 112db@1w, how do we account for resistance heat loss? Would the magnet/coil remain cool at continuous max rms power? If it is 100%eff comparing in and out, is it actually more eff than stated after we factor in the resistance heat losses, etc? Or is it the same as the cap discharge into an identical 0v empty cap where the resistance is not the reason for the 50%energy loss in doing so? ;) 112db@1w 100%eff in/out, plus free heat. lol

Lets see.

Mags



Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 17, 2017, 01:25:19 AM
                            fluid dynamics
http://www.crystalinks.com/moving_sidewalks.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/moving_sidewalks.html)

http://www.crystalinks.com/vortex_in_vortex_out.gif
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/World_line-de.svg/250px-World_line-de.svg.png

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_tube (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_tube)
this equation was published in 2012; it explains the fundamental operating principle of vortex tubes. The search for this explanation began in 1933 when the vortex tube was discovered and continued for more than 80 years.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: forest on September 17, 2017, 08:54:53 AM
(...)                     
It is known how a capacitor behaves on the network. Although this apparent current passes through, it does not consume any current. A capacitor absorbs current during the amplitude increase and supplies exactly this current during the amplitude drop back to the mains. However, if the capacitor is switched to the mains in the charged state during the amplitude drop, the charge is discharged into the mains, even if the charge does not originally originate from the network. When the mains voltage is zeroed, the capacitor must be disconnected from the mains again because otherwise it would be recharged from the mains with opposite polarity. Thus, when the capacitor is charged before any amplitude waste from any current source, and is discharged into the network during the amplitude drop, current is supplied to the network. If this capacitor makes this during the positive half-wave, a second capacitor can do this during the negative half-wave. The principle also works with only one half wave. In order to operate this principle, it is not necessary for the capacitor to be charged from the current source to the peak voltage, but any charge can be supplied with an arbitrarily lower voltage into the grid if either the residual charge is carried out up to the grid peak voltage or from the grid Capacitor is not connected to the mains until the mains voltage drops below the capacitor voltage. The capacitor is charged in the half wave break. The principle therefore supplies current to the network for as long as half the time of any number of periods. It actually produces the current consumed by phase-cut control, and it operates as a capacitive phase shifter. Both are very welcome in public networks. Due to the parallel operation, the primary energy carriers which are already present are used as memories and thus a further problem of regenerative energy forms is solved.  A practically constructed system uses triacs as switches, which are ignited by a mains frequency-controlled electronics.  The capacitors have no irrational size even at high power. Although these capacitors are operated only polarized, so-called MP capacitors should be used for safety reasons.  Two capacitors with 167 uF each provide a current of 10 amperes during the half-period at 50 Hz. This corresponds to a power of 1100 watts at 220 volts effective mains voltage when fully charged to the mains voltage. For this output power of a maximum of 20 watts is required. This principle also works effectively when considerably less regenerative energy is available in time.
(..)


This text is very interesting, is that a citation from patent ? Which one ?
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 17, 2017, 09:34:40 AM
                            Good morning,forest (PT-time ;) )

This one :                                        net-infeeder
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19900104&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=DE&NR=3821856A1&KC=A1&ND=4# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19900104&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=DE&NR=3821856A1&KC=A1&ND=4#)

and included "Citing documents" Applicant(s):  PETERS, HELMUT, 2854 LOXSTEDT, DE
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19921015&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=DE&NR=9107538U1&KC=U1&ND=6# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19921015&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=DE&NR=9107538U1&KC=U1&ND=6#)

The invention thus makes use of the fact that the inductor coil acts as a current store, which must first be "charged" when a voltage is applied, thus preventing a sudden rise in current, and that the current is subsequently passed through a choke coil by 90 ° of the alternating voltage applied thereto hurries.  According to the invention, the reactor coil is then switched as a buffer between the DC voltage network and the AC voltage network, whereby, in cooperation with the controllable switch, the surprising effect is obtained of being able to feed direct current directly into the AC voltage network without a short circuit between these two networks. This results in a considerably higher efficiency, in contrast to the known inverters, which results in a better energy yield. In addition, the waveform of the current fed into the alternating current network via the inductor coil is continuous and can be approximated to the ideal sinusoidal shape
better than the current generated by an inverter. 

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=9&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19581014&CC=US&NR=2855860A&KC=A# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=9&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19581014&CC=US&NR=2855860A&KC=A#)
rexresearch : syphon Hydromat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhm22kxHhd8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhm22kxHhd8)

                                                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFOXnp1pL_U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFOXnp1pL_U)
                                                    run forever: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros)

to  electric amplifying syphon circuit :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19940318&CC=FR&NR=2695768A3&KC=A3# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=1&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19940318&CC=FR&NR=2695768A3&KC=A3#)

Sonance and Resonance circuit system : https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19760504&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=3955201A&KC=A&ND=4#
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 17, 2017, 10:04:07 AM
With just a bit of fiddling I changed the sealed internal enclosure to .3cu and the larger ported enclosure to 4cu. just changed box sizes.

123.37db@1w    That equates to 1370.88% eff of input vs output.  :o ;D   Can anyone tell me if Im wrong here? If so please provide sources and references for your arguments.

Mags

https://www.google.com/patents/US8004250
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 17, 2017, 10:49:44 AM
Mag,
I can't fully understand how you can get overunity out of a resonance system.
It's easier to understand the resonance concept by using a low loss spring, and a mass attached to it. The spring is the capacitor and the mass is the inductor.


If you try to extract output from the mechanical system, you also remove the reason why it resonate.
Say you put cotton whool inside the spring. The cotton is the load you want to put energy in to.
Now the resonance system has a low Q, and is no longer willing to sustain oscillation without energy supply.


My nick, btw, reflects this low Q as a speaker system with controlled audioable output. You cant get controll without effort.


Vidar
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 17, 2017, 11:24:21 AM
                                                                          Good morning,Low-Q
question and answer source : probably ( ::) ) https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Fessenden (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Fessenden)
                                                 https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=us&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=+fessenden&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=us&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=+fessenden&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search)

less (easy,simple and uncomplicated) and fancy if you understand french (frank und frei) :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=louis+charles+beaupre&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?submitted=true&locale=en_EP&DB=EPODOC&ST=advanced&TI=&AB=&PN=&AP=&PR=&PD=&PA=&IN=louis+charles+beaupre&CPC=&IC=&Submit=Search)

compare( if sufficient freetime avail):

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20040219&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=JP&NR=2004056987A&KC=A&ND=5# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20040219&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=JP&NR=2004056987A&KC=A&ND=5#)

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20050616&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=JP&NR=2005160215A&KC=A&ND=5# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=20050616&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=JP&NR=2005160215A&KC=A&ND=5#)

Profil(e) "Tanaka Saburo" ?


                              Lord Kelvin capacitor/metal spring analogon
                              https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_pump (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_pump)


                                                                            in-/con- version
                                                                actio  -         ?                 reactio
                                                                active-         ?                 passive
                                                            emission-   antenna             receiving

https://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/20/okayama-solar-absorbers-use-%E2%80%9Cgreen-ferrite%E2%80%9D-to-generate-super-cheap-electricity-from-heat/ (https://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/20/okayama-solar-absorbers-use-%E2%80%9Cgreen-ferrite%E2%80%9D-to-generate-super-cheap-electricity-from-heat/)
                                search for Naoshi Ikeda et al. and their cristal phaenomen/effect findings and development

http://www.astrofoil.net/ (http://www.astrofoil.net/)     http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.tech1.html (http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.tech1.html)
                                             RADIANT ENERGY TRANSFER DEFINED
                                             transfer or telefer,trans-port or tele-port
                                             http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.r-values.html (http://www.astrofoil.net/astrofoil.insulation.r-values.html)
                                             http://www.astrofoil.net/img51.gif (http://www.astrofoil.net/img51.gif)
                                             " ...... emit infra-red rays,which have no temperature ....."

                        anergy and exergy = complete energy
             http://www.udo-leuschner.de/energie/e00inhalt.htm (http://www.udo-leuschner.de/energie/e00inhalt.htm)
                               google translated
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.udo-leuschner.de%2Fenergie%2Fe00inhalt.htm&edit-text= (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.udo-leuschner.de%2Fenergie%2Fe00inhalt.htm&edit-text=)
                                 
                                  e-specially
             http://www.udo-leuschner.de/energie/SB102-07.htm (http://www.udo-leuschner.de/energie/SB102-07.htm)
                               google translated
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.udo-leuschner.de%2Fenergie%2FSB102-07.htm&edit-text= (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=de&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.udo-leuschner.de%2Fenergie%2FSB102-07.htm&edit-text=)



http://www.energie.pt/en/ (http://www.energie.pt/en/) based by Jacques Bernier invention,1997 also sold by com(m)ercial name : Axergie
https://www.amazon.fr/La%C3%A9rosolaire-pompe-chaleur-assist%C3%A9e-solaire/dp/2862431109 (https://www.amazon.fr/La%C3%A9rosolaire-pompe-chaleur-assist%C3%A9e-solaire/dp/2862431109)
and more :
https://www.google.pt/search?q=jacques+bernier+pompe&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit35OM_KvWAhXlJsAKHckKCfMQsAQIVQ&biw=1366&bih=667 (https://www.google.pt/search?q=jacques+bernier+pompe&client=firefox-b&dcr=0&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwit35OM_KvWAhXlJsAKHckKCfMQsAQIVQ&biw=1366&bih=667)

                    energy:                             decelerated becomes : matter/materie/material
                    material/materie/matter : becomes accelerated  : energy 
                    https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=8&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19931118&CC=DE&NR=4215818A1&KC=A1# (https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=8&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19931118&CC=DE&NR=4215818A1&KC=A1#)
                       Andrew Crosse: Abiogenesis of Acari - Rex Research (http://rexresearch.com/crosse/crosse.htm)                      incubator ? teleporter ? energy or materie-converter ?
                                    not such important-the answer- then the free energy device in house

Have a good Sunday and a nice successfull week
                                                                             OCWL
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 17, 2017, 01:37:48 PM
playing around with capacitors and non-polarized and polarized (electrolytic) is pretty clear, but how about frequency? Can I use just any cap with 50kHz AC or square wave? What if the voltage is is in the range on megahertz?

What if the pulses are square wave from 0 to 5V of 50 kHz? Is that considered pulsed DC and AC only when it goes negative too?

Some of these signal / power sources are pretty unclear what they mean when they say AC or DC. They say AC if it is something else than a constant 5V

Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 17, 2017, 02:01:48 PM
playing around with capacitors and non-polarized and polarized (electrolytic) is pretty clear, but how about frequency? Can I use just any cap with 50kHz AC or square wave? What if the voltage is is in the range on megahertz?

What if the pulses are square wave from 0 to 5V of 50 kHz? Is that considered pulsed DC and AC only when it goes negative too?

Some of these signal / power sources are pretty unclear what they mean when they say AC or DC. They say AC if it is something else than a constant 5V

     DC , pulsed DC ,square root AC, sinusoidal AC :
     (universal ?) consumer drive freedom degree
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 17, 2017, 03:43:17 PM
playing around with capacitors and non-polarized and polarized (electrolytic) is pretty clear, but how about frequency? Can I use just any cap with 50kHz AC or square wave? What if the voltage is is in the range on megahertz?

What if the pulses are square wave from 0 to 5V of 50 kHz? Is that considered pulsed DC and AC only when it goes negative too?

Some of these signal / power sources are pretty unclear what they mean when they say AC or DC. They say AC if it is something else than a constant 5V
DC is DC as long the signal is on either the positive or negative side all the time - regardless of pulses or variable signal. As soon as the signal cross the zero line in to opposite polarity, current starts to flow the other direction, you got AC.


You need AC, but that can be achieved with pulsed DC as long as you connect a capacitor in series first. This high pass filter will lett the pulses through, and let the DC component rest over the capacitor.


Vidar
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 17, 2017, 04:52:31 PM
DC is DC as long the signal is on either the positive or negative side all the time - regardless of pulses or variable signal. As soon as the signal cross the zero line in to opposite polarity, current starts to flow the other direction, you got AC.


You need AC, but that can be achieved with pulsed DC as long as you connect a capacitor in series first. This high pass filter will lett the pulses through, and let the DC component rest over the capacitor.


Vidar

Thx Vidar,

so non-polarized caps I can connect to DC or AC and the frequency is going to be a problem only if the MHz is so high it shorts the cap. Meaning the cap can't change polarity as fast as the current.

Electrolytic also, if I make sure the polarity is right?

I got microwave oven caps rated 2100V 50Hz AC 0,8uF and they seem to take charge from secondary coil + full wave rectifier just fine. Cap shows 41V
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 17, 2017, 07:39:47 PM

You're talking MHz. A cap at 0.8uF is considered as a full short circuit at that frequency range unless you want it to be a capacitor to block DC and conduct AC.

Z=1/(2×pi×f×C)
Z=1/(2×pi×1 000 000Hz×0.0000008F)=0.2 Ohm

Vidar

Thx Vidar,

so non-polarized caps I can connect to DC or AC and the frequency is going to be a problem only if the MHz is so high it shorts the cap. Meaning the cap can't change polarity as fast as the current.

Electrolytic also, if I make sure the polarity is right?

I got microwave oven caps rated 2100V 50Hz AC 0,8uF and they seem to take charge from secondary coil + full wave rectifier just fine. Cap shows 41V
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 17, 2017, 08:14:32 PM
Mag,
I can't fully understand how you can get overunity out of a resonance system.
It's easier to understand the resonance concept by using a low loss spring, and a mass attached to it. The spring is the capacitor and the mass is the inductor.


If you try to extract output from the mechanical system, you also remove the reason why it resonate.
Say you put cotton whool inside the spring. The cotton is the load you want to put energy in to.
Now the resonance system has a low Q, and is no longer willing to sustain oscillation without energy supply.


My nick, btw, reflects this low Q as a speaker system with controlled audioable output. You cant get controll without effort.


Vidar

Not very low loss but it is stainless strap. I made a different magnet config but hadnt gotten back to that yet since. The new magnet sets are sam poles facein and a spacer. So the field between the mags is perpendicular to the axis of the pole face. The flux comes out radially around the spacer so the flux is at right angles to the windings. Should be better performance with that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVEmF_J_f3s&t=198s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fmmg9UXnw4

Stiffer stainless... Less air resistance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OTyErrA9N8

Then magnetic spring... Its different as the freq is dependent on level of input. So freq increases as you drive it harder. It seems to be a non linear spring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDinA8Zm4LQ

Mags



Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 17, 2017, 08:52:00 PM

Springs are not linear. Their tension increase with amplitude.
If you pluck a gitar string very hard, you can hear that the pitch start high, then it pitch down as the amplitude decrease. ;)

Not very low loss but it is stainless strap. I made a different magnet config but hadnt gotten back to that yet since. The new magnet sets are sam poles facein and a spacer. So the field between the mags is perpendicular to the axis of the pole face. The flux comes out radially around the spacer so the flux is at right angles to the windings. Should be better performance with that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVEmF_J_f3s&t=198s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVEmF_J_f3s&t=198s)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fmmg9UXnw4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fmmg9UXnw4)

Stiffer stainless... Less air resistance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OTyErrA9N8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OTyErrA9N8)

Then magnetic spring... Its different as the freq is dependent on level of input. So freq increases as you drive it harder. It seems to be a non linear spring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDinA8Zm4LQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDinA8Zm4LQ)

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 17, 2017, 10:05:15 PM
Springs are not linear. Their tension increase with amplitude.
If you pluck a gitar string very hard, you can hear that the pitch start high, then it pitch down as the amplitude decrease. ;)

Ah ok. Well its really noticeable with the magnets.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 17, 2017, 10:24:52 PM

The magnets are attached to a very short suspension. If you use a coil spring, the length of the steel is much longer, and the ratio between excursion and total length of the spring material is very small. Then you will notice much less difference in resoance frequency vs amplitude.
That's one of the reasons why guitars with longer necks sounds better. Less pitch distortion and longer sustain.


You will notice that the amplitude decrease when you load the second coil. At the same time, it is required more current to run the driver coil because back emf is less. There are actually no gain in a resonance. It's just a "standing wave" that occurs in low loss systems. The wave will be weaken as you introduce any form of damping or load. A load of the second coil is acting like a shock absorber which limits the amplitude - and the very reason why cars with damaged absorbers are like playing with life while driving.
However, the shock absorber also take energy from the engine when driving on bumpy roads because the suspension is not a low loss resonance system that could bounce the car in all directions while driving.


Vidar

Ah ok. Well its really noticeable with the magnets.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 18, 2017, 04:05:51 AM
guitar strings :
The Windbelt is a wind power harvesting device invented by Shawn Frayn in 2004 for converting wind power (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power) to electricity.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windbelt#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windbelt#cite_note-Briand-2) It consists of a flexible polymer ribbon stretched between supports transverse to the wind direction, with magnets glued to it. When the wind blows across it, the ribbon vibrates due to aeroelastic flutter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeroelasticity#Flutter), similar to the action of an aeolian harp (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolian_harp). The vibrating movement of the magnets induces current in nearby pickup coils (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_coil) by electromagnetic inductio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_induction)

shock absorber :   http://www.idtechex.com/electric-vehicles-europe/show/en/
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 20, 2017, 05:38:18 AM
Here is another advantage that can be had by adding more drivers to increase efficiency and does this apply elsewhere with other devices, motors, etc....

When we measure the output of a speaker, by the standard db @1meter, then we double the power in, we increase 3db.
96db@1w
99db@2W
102db@4w
105db@8w
And so on up to the limits of the speaker. ex  126db@1024w

The first pic shows this in a graph.

Next we increase the number of speakers and we increase the power accordingly. We increase 6db when we double the number of speakers and power accordingly

1 speaker 96db@1w
2 speakers 102db@2w   1w each speaker
4 speakers 108db@4w   1w each speaker
8 speakers 114db@8w   1w each speaker

Shown in second graph depicting 100w up to 400w. Same increase for doubling speakers and power for each.

Notice the difference between the examples above. In both situations the power was gradually increased, but by also adding more drivers we get another increase of 3db more for each doubling of total power. Where did this increase come from? ??? ;)

The last graph shows just a doubling in the number of drivers. With only 1w total going in, we increase 3db by increasing the drivers while redistributing the 1w total power divided between the drivers.

1 speaker @1w 96db
2 speakers @1w 99db  .5w per driver
4 speakers @1w 102db  .25w per driver
8 speakers @1w 105db  .125w per driver

 ???   Its real.   ;)

So just by increasing the number of drivers with the same total input, output is increased. So Im in the belief that more coils and magnets on a pulse motor should increase eff, not just increased output per input. This is something that needs to be seriously looked at.  Like if we had 1 electric motor driving only 1 wheel of a car, would adding another motor to another wheel not only increase go power but also increase eff??  Add an electric motor to all 4 wheels, would it be more eff than just 1 motor or just 2 motors?  As of yet before testing it, Id say there is a good chance it may be possible and nobody has really tried it in tests for eff. And if there are some here that object to that possibility, then explain why the gain in eff I have shown here only apply to speakers and not anything else. ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 20, 2017, 11:25:04 AM
couple days ago they announced the finally succeeded in converting light signals to sound, storing it and then converting them back to light. Easier to manipulate sound than light.

It seems this is a major break through in communications http://www.iflscience.com/technology/scientists-have-managed-to-store-light-as-sound-for-the-first-time/

I think they are trying to steal my light-electricity-sound valves!

Last time I had a good idea I didn't follow through and now it got sold to Germany for 5 million :( This idea was paying for pizzas with SMS. At that time only thing SMS was used to pay for was background images for mobile phones and ring tones.
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 20, 2017, 01:25:37 PM
Do you think that this "5 Million contract" object will become more effective and cheaper than :
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&II=11&ND=3&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=19860304&CC=US&NR=4574161A&KC=A#


let us see and seeing the pizza prices falling

Sincerely
             OCWL

Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 20, 2017, 01:29:05 PM
the pizza deal was a separate one like I said the post. The new idea was the light-electric-sound conversion
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 20, 2017, 01:40:37 PM
the pizza deal was a separate one like I said the post. The new idea was the light-electric-sound conversion

Pardon,if I tried in my Sado(river in Portugal, Marquis de Sade)-Maso(I like Pizza,too)-Servancy
to be convenient . :'(

wmbr ::)
             OCWL
   
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 20, 2017, 03:48:42 PM
Here is another advantage that can be had by adding more drivers to increase efficiency and does this apply elsewhere with other devices, motors, etc....

When we measure the output of a speaker, by the standard db @1meter, then we double the power in, we increase 3db.
96db@1w
99db@2W
102db@4w
105db@8w
And so on up to the limits of the speaker. ex  126db@1024w

The first pic shows this in a graph.

Next we increase the number of speakers and we increase the power accordingly. We increase 6db when we double the number of speakers and power accordingly

1 speaker 96db@1w
2 speakers 102db@2w   1w each speaker
4 speakers 108db@4w   1w each speaker
8 speakers 114db@8w   1w each speaker

Shown in second graph depicting 100w up to 400w. Same increase for doubling speakers and power for each.

Notice the difference between the examples above. In both situations the power was gradually increased, but by also adding more drivers we get another increase of 3db more for each doubling of total power. Where did this increase come from? ??? ;)

The last graph shows just a doubling in the number of drivers. With only 1w total going in, we increase 3db by increasing the drivers while redistributing the 1w total power divided between the drivers.

1 speaker @1w 96db
2 speakers @1w 99db  .5w per driver
4 speakers @1w 102db  .25w per driver
8 speakers @1w 105db  .125w per driver

 ???   Its real.   ;)

So just by increasing the number of drivers with the same total input, output is increased. So Im in the belief that more coils and magnets on a pulse motor should increase eff, not just increased output per input. This is something that needs to be seriously looked at.  Like if we had 1 electric motor driving only 1 wheel of a car, would adding another motor to another wheel not only increase go power but also increase eff??  Add an electric motor to all 4 wheels, would it be more eff than just 1 motor or just 2 motors?  As of yet before testing it, Id say there is a good chance it may be possible and nobody has really tried it in tests for eff. And if there are some here that object to that possibility, then explain why the gain in eff I have shown here only apply to speakers and not anything else. ;)

Mags
When we measure efficiency in speakers, it does not mean you can achieve over unity just by adding more drivers.
You increase the efficiency in how much air the membrane can move. By pushing more air, you push more mass, and more mechanical work is done to the air itself.


If you have one 8 Ohm driver, 100Hz, excursion of +/- 10mm.
Then increase to four drivers. Two and two in parallell (4 Ohm), then these in series (4+4=8 Ohm). Then you got 4 times the area at 8 Ohm. Now at 100Hz these drivers excursion is +/-2.5mm each because they got 1/4 of the energy input each. The airload is the same, but the mechanical coupling to the air is more efficient. Then you still move the same amount of air in both scenarios.
Say you have 10 grams air load that moves +/-10mm with one driver, then 4 drivers move 40 grams air load only 2.5mm. The energy it takes and provides is exactly the same.
So why does the dB number pr. watt increase? The larger the area, the more "beamy" the sounds travels.
Google line source speaker measurement. These speakers have an array of speakers. Even if the potential efficiency is very high, the practical efficiency does not increase parallell to the number of drivers. It also depends a lot of how close or far away you measure the soundpressure. Close up, you might get a boomy measurement - lots of bass, but little midrange and treble. Further away, the bass response drops while the mid, and high range increase relatively to eachother.


You could have a panel of 1 square kilometer of drivers, but still not achieved more than 100% efficiency. You cannot calculate efficiency in % in the same way as you do with an electric motor for example.
The 1% efficiency is based on a standarized measurement method for audio transmission, and does not apply directly to the efficiency we talk about in solid mecnanical systems.


Vidar
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 20, 2017, 06:53:11 PM
When we measure efficiency in speakers, it does not mean you can achieve over unity just by adding more drivers.
You increase the efficiency in how much air the membrane can move. By pushing more air, you push more mass, and more mechanical work is done to the air itself.


If you have one 8 Ohm driver, 100Hz, excursion of +/- 10mm.
Then increase to four drivers. Two and two in parallell (4 Ohm), then these in series (4+4=8 Ohm). Then you got 4 times the area at 8 Ohm. Now at 100Hz these drivers excursion is +/-2.5mm each because they got 1/4 of the energy input each. The airload is the same, but the mechanical coupling to the air is more efficient. Then you still move the same amount of air in both scenarios.
Say you have 10 grams air load that moves +/-10mm with one driver, then 4 drivers move 40 grams air load only 2.5mm. The energy it takes and provides is exactly the same.
So why does the dB number pr. watt increase? The larger the area, the more "beamy" the sounds travels.
Google line source speaker measurement. These speakers have an array of speakers. Even if the potential efficiency is very high, the practical efficiency does not increase parallell to the number of drivers. It also depends a lot of how close or far away you measure the soundpressure. Close up, you might get a boomy measurement - lots of bass, but little midrange and treble. Further away, the bass response drops while the mid, and high range increase relatively to eachother.


You could have a panel of 1 square kilometer of drivers, but still not achieved more than 100% efficiency. You cannot calculate efficiency in % in the same way as you do with an electric motor for example.
The 1% efficiency is based on a standarized measurement method for audio transmission, and does not apply directly to the efficiency we talk about in solid mecnanical systems.


Vidar

92db exibits 1% eff, not 96db as you had first suggested. 96db is 2.51% eff.  102db is 10%eff.  105db is 20%eff. It is in the list below. Are you saying that yes your 1% is the real deal power eff, Pin(amplifier) vs Pout(acoustical sound power Pae), but the rest of the list say at 105db is 20%eff is not correct? Is 112db@1w not 100%eff Pin vs Pout? And if you disagree with the list other than the 1%value, then I need to see proof in equation and sources for such.

Were talking sub bass here not mid and high phasing and alignment.  Say it were an suv and we start with 1 sub facing the back doors/hatch, then add 1 more sub the same, facing back, then 4 subs, same way. Then 8 subs. The wave all comes forward in the vehicle at virtually the same time whether it is 1 sub or 8. Back in the days guys would do 32 8in subs at 100w and beat the guys pushing couple 15s with 1kw. Thats because the guy with 100w took advantage of the gain of more drivers. I knew of this since the 90s but am only making the connection now with real possibilities of this increased eff method.

If I start with the 1 pioneer 12 at 105db@1w, the sound produced is at 20%eff vs Pin, just as your 1%eff 92db version would have the sound power of 1%eff vs Pin, as shown in the chart, 105db being the max shown, probably for a number of reasons. ;) Wouldnt want to show 114db as being 158%eff all out in the open now would we? ;D even for example sake. ;)
So now I add 1 more 105db sub. .5w per sub total of 1w, same as the single sub test, and we get 108db@1w
Now add 2 more subs, 4 total, .25w each total 1w we get 111db@1w
Finally 8 subs, total power in 1w. We get 114db@1w. 

If you dont agree with the fact that we gain 3db by just doubling the number of drivers, this is how it works out...

It is well known, we double the power in a speaker system, we increase 3db. If we double the speakers and power,  say 2 subs total 100w then 4 subs total 200w, we increase 6db.  So now we take the 4 subs tot 200w and we reduce the watts by half to 100w tot we lose 3db of the 6db we had at 200w.  So same power in we increase output 3db just by way of the added drivers. All very well known in the audio industry.

Run it through any speaker program. Just add more speakers and hold the total watts to 1w and watch the output grow compared to 1 speaker @1w.

114db@1w. The calculated actual eff of the system is 158%eff.  Do you not agree with that? If not then how can you stand by your 1%, where the chart/list shows your number is in the ball park of your initial claim, but then you must not be in agreement with the rest of the chart?

If the 158% number is not correct then what is to say that your 1% is? Ive laid out the numbers from a source that does the actual power in vs power out eff calculations of which agrees with your initial quote fairly accurately, you were off from 96db to the actual 92db for 1%eff.

Are you talking actual eff with the 1% number, like Pin(amplifier vs Pout(acoustical sound power Pae)? If so, then what is your guesstimate of the actual eff of a speaker that is 105db sensitivity? And a speaker that is 112db sensitivity?  All @1w of course.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Low-Q on September 20, 2017, 10:23:23 PM
The problem with the 100% acoustical efficiency is if you have an identical speaker/subwoofer, as a microphone, 1 meter apart from the active speaker, it cannot pick up the same energy as you put into the active speaker.
The air between have too much loss to activate the "receiver speaker" in a way that it can deliver 1W from its moving voicecoil.


The efficiency is measured at 1 meter. What happens if you move the mic 0.5 meter closer? Is the efficiency 400% because it sounds 6dB louder there? No, you can't. Even if you glue the membranes together on both active and passive speaker, you cannot get more energy out of the other voicecoil as you put in to the active one.


That's why you cannot compare acoustical efficiency the same way as you do with a motor.


Vidar
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 20, 2017, 10:46:03 PM
The problem with the 100% acoustical efficiency is if you have an identical speaker/subwoofer, as a microphone, 1 meter apart from the active speaker, it cannot pick up the same energy as you put into the active speaker.
The air between have too much loss to activate the "receiver speaker" in a way that it can deliver 1W from its moving voicecoil.


The efficiency is measured at 1 meter. What happens if you move the mic 0.5 meter closer? Is the efficiency 400% because it sounds 6dB louder there? No, you can't. Even if you glue the membranes together on both active and passive speaker, you cannot get more energy out of the other voicecoil as you put in to the active one.


That's why you cannot compare acoustical efficiency the same way as you do with a motor.


Vidar

I keep hearing you say it...

If the speaker is 105db@1w 1 meter it is considered 20%efficiency. 

Now if we measured it a .5 meter it would read 6db more, 111db, but still an eff of 20%. 
 
.25 meter would read 6db more for 117db, but the eff is still the same.

The distance is relative to the reading not eff. It just so happens that they measure it at 1 meter, of which if the speaker were 112db @1w at 1 meter, the Pin would equal Pae, which would be 100%eff Pin = Pout.  Now if we have 8 of the pioneer 12s @105db sense, total of 1 w in, we would be at 114db @1w at 1 meter. 158%eff Pin vs Pout(Pae). Now we go 16 12s. Puts us at 117db @1w at 1 meter and gives us 316.22%eff.. 

I dont see why you dont see it.  It took me weeks to get them to understand that resistance is not the cause of the 50% loss connecting a full charge cap to an empty then calculate the total energy. Maybe it will take a while to hammer it in here also..... ;)

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 20, 2017, 11:06:34 PM
Also Im not talking about transferring power from one speaker to another to try for OU. Never said so. But if I did I would go isoloaded first. Speakers face to face mounted with very little air space between to squeeze. Just enough of a spacer so the rubber surrounds dont have a chance to rub. Then to do a better yet, make a ring that would physically bind the cones together eliminating air compression all together then put it in a vacuum. lol. next step would be to take advantage of resonance in the system. What ever the resonant freq of the 2 bound speakers rings at(about an octave down from 1 speaker alone, then redo the test. Then get some box resonance in the mix.

The idea of isoloading, clamshelling speakers, is the combo will work in half the volume box as well as 1 speaker in 2 times the vol. With the exception of needing twice the power, but the box is smaller if need be.  And there is a certain quality that an isoloaded enclosure has that seems to out do a single sub in the larger box.

In the tests above, I would go first no box at all. just the speakers.  But Im not and havnt suggested doing so, you did. Im just pointing out the gains and how can we get that with circuits and or motors.  You repeatedly say we cant. Thats not going to stop me. ;) Nope.

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 20, 2017, 11:33:06 PM
hmm please educate me.

I got a slayer exciter pushing 5V into my primary and secondary shows 200V. This is nice because the secondary feeds back to the circuit and I can play around it and it still keeps resonance.

Now my third coil gets about 5V in at the moment and that I feed into a FBR -> cap -> LED -> back to FBR. Cap shows 3.6V and this should light up my 3V LED just fine. LED has just a slight dim light on it.
LED gets a bit brighter if touch the cap's metal case.

What is the circuit missing? Does my body add more capacitance to the circuit or am I the "ground" in this?
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: citfta on September 21, 2017, 12:56:10 PM
Hi Mags,

I can verify some of your idea with a device I built.  Out of curiosity I built an air cored motor/generator.  I knew the output would probably be low because of not having any cores.  I just wanted to see how far I could push it and what I would get.  I originally built it with only two coils.  They were trifilar with two windings being the drive windings and one winding being the output winding.  With only those two coils and a rotor made of alternating polarity magnets my efficiency was only 17%.  When I added two more coils my efficiency went up to 23%.  I have not had time to work on it any more but I suspect as I add more coils the efficiency will continue to go up.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 21, 2017, 02:04:39 PM
one of the Magnet Force field and resonance technology applying pioneers :
https://www.google.de/search?source=hp&q=subieta-garron&oq=subieta-garron&gs_l=psy-ab.12...280.8042.0.10356.13.13.0.0.0.0.404.2211.3j7j1j1j1.13.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.9.1808...0j0i131k1j0i30k1j0i19k1j0i30i19k1j0i8i30k1j0i8i10i30k1.0.SHHZm5UsUKI

http://rac-technologies.de/index.php/history.html


Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 21, 2017, 06:46:47 PM
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Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 21, 2017, 11:14:33 PM
Hi Mags,

I can verify some of your idea with a device I built.  Out of curiosity I built an air cored motor/generator.  I knew the output would probably be low because of not having any cores.  I just wanted to see how far I could push it and what I would get.  I originally built it with only two coils.  They were trifilar with two windings being the drive windings and one winding being the output winding.  With only those two coils and a rotor made of alternating polarity magnets my efficiency was only 17%.  When I added two more coils my efficiency went up to 23%.  I have not had time to work on it any more but I suspect as I add more coils the efficiency will continue to go up.

Take care,
Carroll

Hey Carrol

Very good. Can you describe how you performed the eff tests?

See I believe that the more drivers that affect a particular medium, air by way of pressure, rotor by way of pressure to turn, etc should be the same effect.

As much as I have looked, you wont find much out there that gets into the actual eff of speakers. Many of the audio forum threads on this, articles on eff of speakers, seem to mostly just fall back onto Db@1w at 1 meter. And the very very few that actually describe real eff(Pin vs Pout) tend to set the upper limits of what they show to 105db of which is 20%eff. Id say they dare not show the eff of a 112db sensitivity speaker which would be 100%, even though the 112db speakers are out there, and Im still searching for at least 1 that may be higher than 112db. Would be interesting to list a speaker out there as being say 120db sensitivity, and see if some take notice. :o ;D

The eff level that Vidar laid claim to for a 96db@1w speaker as 1%eff seems very low and miserable and he wont seem to acknowledge that there are higher eff speakers like the Pioneer pro 12 I have at my shop now that is 105db@1w which is 20%eff. Like the only pertinent numbers to follow are the 1%level or they are the only ones that count and there isnt much to go beyond that level. Thats how I take his argument on it anyway. Truth is, 96db speaker is about 2.5%eff. A 102db@1w is 10%eff. Then 105db1w is 20%eff.  Once you get out of the area of 92db1w which IS 1%eff, the eff seems to climb rapidly. 112db1w is 100%eff. 114db1w is 158%eff. etc.

He made the claim of 1%eff. But if I show that a 112db@1w speaker is 100%eff, then he says that those eff numbers cannot be applied to motors and such. Well then what sort or kind of efficiency definition does the tiny 1% he described follow? Is it a different eff than we all know about? An eff that when the numbers do represent 100%, then that efficiency is not the same as other efficiency.

I just dont buy it.

I have just gotten a very large archive of older speakers with specs. Have to look at specs 1 at a time. Wish it were a spread sheet to just look down the sensitivity numbers.

My buddy with the 6 gigantic 3000w 15in subs $600ea and 3 5kw amps $1700ea, built the pioneer 12s box like im building for his friend, 6 12s, and only 3 pio amps 5200w and he now admits I was right. it beats his truck hands down. $10,000 in equip vs less than $1000 in pioneer eqip.  It was the db@1w numbers that did it. His 15s are 88db@1w and the pioneer champ 12s are 96db@1w.

Ok, back to work....

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: citfta on September 22, 2017, 01:18:55 AM
Hi Mags,

The efficiency was calculated by comparing the input current and voltage (DC) with the output current and voltage after it was converted to DC and applied to some different value resistors until I found a resistor value that gave what I considered a reasonable value for the output.  What I mean by that is that with a very high value resistor of course the current would be very low but the voltage would be very high.  I adjusted the resistance value until I was able to get about the same output voltage as the input voltage and then measured the current through the resistor to calculate the efficiency.

After working through that for the two coil system I then did the same thing after I added the other two coils.  And as I posted the efficiency went from 17% to 23%.  This was all a fairly crude system with no real precision workmanship as I only wanted to see what I could get by driving and using air cored coils.

I converted the AC from the magnets passing the coil by feeding that to a bridge rectifier and then connecting that to a cap to smooth the DC pulses.  My input voltage and output voltage were both around 20 volts.  The input current for two coils was around 100 milliamps or so and for the 4 coil system about 150 milliamps.  I don't remember the exact values for the output currents but I do remember the efficiency figures.  I have the output current values in my notes somewhere but didn't look them up before starting this post.

Take care,
Carroll
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Magluvin on September 22, 2017, 02:02:25 AM
Hi Mags,

The efficiency was calculated by comparing the input current and voltage (DC) with the output current and voltage after it was converted to DC and applied to some different value resistors until I found a resistor value that gave what I considered a reasonable value for the output.  What I mean by that is that with a very high value resistor of course the current would be very low but the voltage would be very high.  I adjusted the resistance value until I was able to get about the same output voltage as the input voltage and then measured the current through the resistor to calculate the efficiency.

After working through that for the two coil system I then did the same thing after I added the other two coils.  And as I posted the efficiency went from 17% to 23%.  This was all a fairly crude system with no real precision workmanship as I only wanted to see what I could get by driving and using air cored coils.

I converted the AC from the magnets passing the coil by feeding that to a bridge rectifier and then connecting that to a cap to smooth the DC pulses.  My input voltage and output voltage were both around 20 volts.  The input current for two coils was around 100 milliamps or so and for the 4 coil system about 150 milliamps.  I don't remember the exact values for the output currents but I do remember the efficiency figures.  I have the output current values in my notes somewhere but didn't look them up before starting this post.

Take care,
Carroll

Very cool. Ok

So now if you double your drivers your eff should improve once again. Double again, gain again. ;)

Now imagine if you worked on just a 1 coil setup and worked it till its eff alone were much better, then start adding more. Just like choosing a speaker at 88db@1w vs a speaker that is 96db or even 105db@1w like I have on the bench. Its the same thing, one is more eff than the other. And then if we can increase eff in multiples, I think we are headed in the right direction.

Mags

Mags
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: Belfior on September 22, 2017, 11:22:47 AM
Would you guys happen to know a good schematic for an NST type transformer? Would come in handy when trying to replicate Don Smith's devices.

12V DC in, 30mA and 6kV out and with a center tap.

I was just going to order one from China, but it seems they have all kinds of protection systems now so they shut off
Title: Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
Post by: lancaIV on September 22, 2017, 11:54:11 AM
  a.    12V 30 mA DC = 0,36 VA DC not meaned
  b.    12V  ?     A       =  6000V x 0,03A DC= 180 VA DC     
                ? = 180VA DC/12V = 15 A DC
                           "ideal"=100% !
                   real world calculation need

NST type transformer :
http://www.fusor.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4315 (http://www.fusor.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4315)

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserclp.htm#clpcps (http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserclp.htm#clpcps)