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Author Topic: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems  (Read 15379 times)

Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2017, 02:18:57 PM »
I'm not sure what you mean by "looped coil" or "large cap" here. You can use any number of on-line calculators to determine resonant frequency,
inductor and capacitor values. My favourite one is here:
http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm

looped coil is just connected to itself. What I was thinking was to compensate the number of turns with a large capacitor. Not sure what the ratio of inductance and capacitance will do, but I will find out!

Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by "feeding back" here.

I meant the secondary having a feedback to the system like it does in the slayer exciter. If the secondary is looped with a capacitor it still acts as an antenna and I could maybe use a looped coil with your style of antenna feedback?

Quote
But I have to warn you: You will find it very difficult to get consistent and satisfactory results using a loose, sloppy layout with lots of
clipleads, and the problems will get worse with higher frequencies.

Yeah I just use the clipleads when I try out something and then solder afterwards. Just got some bread boards that could help me keeping the connections shorter

Quote
One other thing: When posting pictures to the forum, please PLEASE try to keep the horizontal width small enough so the pix don't run
off the page to the right. 800 pixels wide is good enough for most purposes; rarely you may need to use up to 1024 pixels wide. If you
need to show some detail at high magnification, crop it out of the larger picture and post the cropped detail at no more than 1024 pixels wide.

Yeah can't find any buttons on this thread anymore. Going to delete the pic

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2017, 02:18:57 PM »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #31 on: September 07, 2017, 11:42:27 AM »
My studies in resonance has taken a turn toward resonance of sound.

Ive been working in car audio for many years. All this resonance talk with circuits and such has brought me to the conclusion that I have been working with resonance for a longer time than I realize, and Im recognizing its importance to all this and I want to figure out how we can relate the audio resonance to circuits and such.

To start here, Im going to show how Im going to use resonance to outdo my friend in a DB Drag sound competition using the same equipment. 6 12in Pioneer Champ pro subs, and 3 pioneer digital(class D is what they imply) run at 1ohm 2 subs per amp. So my friend is copying my specs for my sub box. That got me a bit as why cant he go with his own design, anyway...  So Im not telling him of my new plans. 

Originally I was going with 3cu ft at 25hz tuned with a 4in port 15in long for each sub. total of 18 cu ft internal. This would have the characteristics of the Lt Blue trace in the multiple trace graph below.

So my new weapon is the dual chamber reflex enclosure. The Lt Blue trace is tuned at 25hz, and the new dual chamber reflex is shown with the characteristics of the pink trace(emulated with a 6th order bandpass option except the DCR will not have upper cutoff like shown here. Ive made a corrected graph for that below the multi trace graph) in which my new design has resonance at 25hz and 50hz.  In car response increases below 80hz up to 12db down to 20hz, So the hump at 50hz should be close to flat down to 25hz.

In the multi trace graph I show multiple possibilities for different boxes for the sub.

Yellow trace -  Infinite baffle. Basically largest sealed box possible. I made it 50cuft as going larger doesnt make much difference for this explanation.
Green trace - Recommended sealed box at 1.25cu ft
Orange trace - Recommended ported(vented) tuned enclosure at 1.5cuft tuned at 38hz(of which is loud but I like a lot of lower extension bottom end)
Lt Blue trace - My version of ported enclosure at 3cuft tuned to 25hz.  Huge gain in the low end. Have built a test box and it rocks.
Pink trace - 6th order bandpass enclosure where speaker is enclosed in between 2 boxes each tuned to 25hz and 50hz respectively. Notice the gain at 25hz and on up to 50hz. Im in the belief that the gain at 25hz is due to the combination of the 50hz tuning together, as in they help eachother as seen in the gain at 50hz also.
Purple trace - This is a 6th order with 35hz and 38hz tuning. Combined there is a monstrous gain in that area of freq.

So with the various implementations great amounts of efficiency can be had vs just a sealed enclosure or infinite baffle where the speaker output is all on its own trying to get the job done.

So the second graph shows the difference between my friends box in the green trace and my new design in purple. I will be louder all the way around by just reconfiguring my box still using 3cuft total for each sub. The box chart below shows the various speaker box types out there. My design is based on Weems dual chamber reflex shown in the box selections below. Im interested in the Fostex but there are not any design parameters out there as it is a proprietary design by Fostex. It would have to be experimented with to gain knowledge on how to calculate.

In the Db Drag competition the upper limit of freq is now below 60hz, used to be 100hz. Guys used to tune to 90 and only play 90hz to see who was louder. They were getting above 180db and it certainly wasnt music. So you can see the gain I will have over my friend at 50hz come Spring Break Nationals. ;D

So what does this all have to do with this thread?  The combination of 2 freq even at a distance of 25hz to 50hz shows an overall gain. And the high peak trace at 35 and 38hz should be of interest. If we can apply this to electronic resonance it may be promising. It makes me think of the TPU supposedly using 3 tuned freq. Maybe it is simpler than we think. ???

Mags





Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #32 on: September 07, 2017, 12:13:18 PM »
My initial thinking would be to have a drive coil between 2 lc coils. What Im trying to comprehend is how do we associate the output of the speaker box to a load in the electronic version. The speaker boxes load is moving air. So how do we look at loads with the electronic version in a comparative way? Like if we close of the speaker output by putting a solid cover over the speaker cone and cover the port outputs would, to me, act like a short circuit load of the electronic version thus having a not so positive output goal. On the other end, if the speaker box were in a vacuum there would be no output as if there were no load in the lc circuit. So loads for lc circuits most likely need a happy medium and a load matched for each variation.

Just thoughts

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #33 on: September 07, 2017, 12:36:41 PM »
The formulation for the Weems DCR is to calculate a vented box while calculating it for 2 ports at the low freq you want, to get the length of the ports, then cut all 3 ports to that length then divide the box into 2 thirds for the speaker side and 1 third for the other ported side. You have to calculate the volume that the ports take up along with the speakers displacement and add that to the total internal volume to be precise. This box will ring at the low freq(my box at 25hz) and it will ring at the next octave up( my box would be 50hz)

Built 2 of them before. Got the info from a book by David Weems on speaker enclosures.

The Fostex enclosure by example seems to have the smaller partition of the enclosure on the speaker side and not necessarily divides in thirds. The box chart above does not show this but I have seen many examples.

Im thinking that the smaller speaker chamber is tuned to the upper freq with the port in between the partitions and the outgoing port is tuned to the lower freq objective calculating the enclosure as a whole.  The Weems design, both ports are active at the lower freq as if the partition were not there, as shown by the calculations of 2 ports to get the low freq tuning. Im still pondering how the 50hz ringing is accomplished. Had not studied that with the other 2 boxes I made.
Will do on this new setup.  But the Fostex Im guessing that the small side with the internal port between the chambers rings at the uper freq and the lower port outputs the upper freq anyway, like how the 2 tuned freq help each other in the DCR trace.

Below is a more accurate depiction of a Fostex design compared to what Ive seen of the real thing others have done including Fostex.

Just getting deep into all this and I hope it helps with things we are trying to accomplish here. ;)

Mags


Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2017, 12:55:25 PM »
One more thing

A ported enclosure tuned to say 25hz, the speaker is moving very little at the tuned freq. The speaker and the output of the port are in phase. So the speaker and the port are pushing out at the same time and the port has the most output at that freq. As we go lower in freq the port output goes out of phase and eventually the output of the port is 180deg out of phase where there is no output, just big speaker cone throw and port noise as they cancel audible program output. Using a subsonic filter on vented enclosures is popular to cut out the low freq that are below the tuning freq to avoid wasting precious power on output we cant hear.

So with the Fostex enclosure, the small chamber say if tuned to 50hz, once the freq goes below 50hz, the internal port starts going out of phase and once it gets down say an octave and below, the internal port becomes invisible to the speaker and the box acts like the internal port and partition do not exist when it comes to freq dependence and the box acts like 1 large vented enclosure tuned to the lower output port freq tuned to the box as a whole enclosure. This is the theory I have figured with the knowledge of studying the Weems design. The Weems design at the lower tuned freq also acts as if the internal partition and port do not exist.

Im just learning a lot about resonance in a fun way here. I hope it adds up to something we can use here.

Mags

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2017, 12:55:25 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2017, 01:11:45 PM »
The 10db gain I will get at 50hz compared to my friends setup will have an audible sense of doubling.  3db increase is just a noticeable increase.  He would have to have an increase of power that is almost 10 times to get that loud at 50hz. We are both running 5200w from the same equip. That would mean he would need about 45,000w to accomplish the same db level at 50hz. That is some good efficiency Ill be getting just by building the box differently but the same internal cuft volume for his and mine.

Mags

Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2017, 02:10:58 PM »
My philosophy is that everything is waves. Matter is just standing waves. I see many analogies in nature/sound that could and should be experimented with in electronics. We are drifting further away from real things when we pretend we are better than the ground we came from.

In my black book I got ideas like a tube with an elastic membrane in the middle. Left side of the tube filled with helium and right side with something heavier than air. Then you place speakers on both ends.

What happens when you blast the other speaker? What if the membrane/material is vibrated to resonance? Can we just shift frequencies or do we get more out from the other speaker that acts now as a receiver?

I think the more you do stuff like nature does you get somewhere. That is why I feel a spark gap is always better to try stuff out with. It is more alive and autotunes to situations. Then when you find some principle or effect you can build the thing with transistors.

If you are bound by the transmitting frequency you could try the heavy gas inside the subwoofer box?

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2017, 02:10:58 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2017, 04:29:47 PM »
Ive been steering away from spark gaps(only have a couple more things Id like to try with them) and pulsing ferite cores to a point where they emit radiations NMR for safety reasons. Some have claimed of headaches and such with that and spark gaps supposedly can emit Xrays.
So all that may reduce my chances of finding FE, but Im still hopeful with resonance and im examining that in a different form with ideas that are already out there, just nobody in the car audio community seems to have gotten to yet. There are other speaker enclosures that I have yet to even ponder how they work, but Im terribly interested to play around with them. Here are some in the pics of more complex ideas below. There are not any speaker box programs out there for the 'average guy" that can do predictions on these box configs, let alone a dual chamber reflex of either type. If any of these designs below can increase the output further than I have shown so far by example(except for the 35hz and 38hz trace) then I want to know how that gain is produced. How far can we go with it. Its a combination of resonances that are increasing the gains, like I said earlier it may give us an indication on how the TPU worked, possibly. All of those traces are at 1w. My DCR design can possibly hit 160db with 5200w real watts vs guys running 30kw and 40kw that are using inefficient woofers that happen to be able to take that kind of input. I call it the car audio scam, make big expensive subs that need a lot of power to achieve what most of them ignore about the Sensitivity parameters of the speakers. Im going in as the underdog with $1000 dollars of equipment against goliaths and Im competing with them with a fairly good knowledge of resonance in this area. Most of them are using either vented boxes or 4th order with the speaker in the box between 2 chambers and the other chamber is ported out and all the sound exits the port. I have a clear advantage with the DCR box along with more efficient subs 96db @1w vs many that are below 90db @1w.

So in all that, I want to examine resonance in this fashion for a while and see how far I can go with it. If I can go another leap with this, then I want to examine how to do the same with electronic versions. The key will be translating how to get more output than just a basic driven coil can produce, just like the speaker. Like Im not totally sure that putting 2 LCs, 1 on each side of the drive coil, will increase efficiency like the 35hz/38hz peaky trace in the graph. Or if say 1 LC is tuned at say 2500hz and the other at 5000hz would give us a gain vs just one or the another alone as a pickup or say sec of a transformer, or even help the gains of each other like the speaker box. But this is where Im restarting my investigation for now and I believe by better understanding of this, will help me with that.

This is all within the description of the thread.  ;)

Mags

Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2017, 06:40:51 PM »
I am just getting started with coils! Actually did my first actual tesla coil today. It seems you gotta do few get get a good one. Top load is tin cans and the secondary has too few turns and not even from a one solid cable. But I got got the setup done so that I can switch secondaries and primaries easily.

Bought some wooden shelves, so I can get these PVC coils horizontal and bolted in one place. This way I can store them away easily.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2017, 07:36:46 PM »
I guess the big point Im trying to instill here is that resonance 'should' be able to increase efficiency in our circuits just like it does for the speaker.

I think those of us that have experimented are possibly doing it wrong when it comes to getting better output using resonance. There are some switching supplies out there that are very efficient in the mid to high 90s that run up to 150kz. Can graeter efficiency be had with such already high efficiency devices? Does it have to be dramatically redesigned in order for it to work to a benefit?

Similarly, Pioneer has another 12in sub that has an efficiency level of 105db @1w input. I have one coming in today to test in the same vented test box as the Champ pro which is at 96db @1w. That is an increase of 9db over the Champ and just absolutely killing them all with their 88 and 90db subs which can cost 500 to over $1000 ea (talking 15in subs) vs the under $100 Pioneers. So I might have another gain in the competition, if the sub sounds good in the same box. Computer sim shows its good, but I always do testing to be sure.  The champ sub compared to this other Pioneer TS-W1200PRO needs 8 times the input power to play as loud. Like the champ would need 8w to play as loud as the 1200pro at 1w, similarly if the champ were at full rms of 800w, the 1200pro only needs 100w to do the same work. So if we run the 1200pro at 800w, the champ would need 6400w to catch up, of which it is only rated at 2000w peak intermittent input, so that cant happen.

This test is exciting to me. Looking all over, YT and search and nobody is implementing this sub really. They are lead to believe that giant multi stacked magnets and large roll surrounds for longer throw will give them louder bass, while this one has an older style accordion surround and a not so large magnet, the eff level is ignored by most.

I dont have to have big cone excursion like them as the resonance helps keep the excursion in check in the lower 'and' upper bass region and the ports are outputing most of the work. The large roll surrounds, sure they allow a bigger excursion of the cone, but the large roll surround takes away active cone area where they use say a 12in cone on a 15in sub.

So Im looking at the eff levels as an important advantage. Just like if we were to try and design a transformer to initially test before we make a comparative one adding resonance, I think the initial test transformer and associated circuit needs to be designed to a very high effective efficiency, otherwise we may still be below 100% after adding resonance and fail to respect any gains in the midst of our goals here.

Like pulse motors. They are probably mostly very inefficient at producing mech measurable output. Sure some seem like wow, micro watts in and it turns. Wooptydoo. But drive something with it and you get not much either. So any possibly even small gains by somehow implementing resonance ends up far from our goal. Then yeah, resonance may look like its not the answer. But applying it to an already very efficient device may help a great deal when we are looking to breach 100%.

So I am telling about the eff of speakers as an example.  This box of 12in subs at 5200w will simply destroy my buddys truck with 6 15in subs at 15kw. He would need 60kw to do the same as the 12s running at their rms level.  Its gunna be a pitty party. He now thinks he will beat me with the same 12s and power in his friends suv. Im not going to let that happen. ;) The double chamber reflex enclosure will beat him with the same champ subs. And if the new sub coming today works good in the same box as the computer predicts, it will be a slaughter.   ;D

Mags


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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2017, 07:36:46 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2017, 08:53:59 PM »
I am just getting started with coils! Actually did my first actual tesla coil today. It seems you gotta do few get get a good one. Top load is tin cans and the secondary has too few turns and not even from a one solid cable. But I got got the setup done so that I can switch secondaries and primaries easily.

Bought some wooden shelves, so I can get these PVC coils horizontal and bolted in one place. This way I can store them away easily.

Did you get it working?

Personally I have found that short, fat resonators work better than long skinny ones. Also it isn't necessary to use heavy wire for the secondary windings. Litz wire may improve the primary performance, but #22 or smaller enamel-coated magnet wire is plenty good for secondary winding.

This coil uses #27 magnet wire for its secondary:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIZClhoU2Xk

Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2017, 09:14:43 PM »
Naah :( This is one of the simplest circuits so the fault might be between the chair and the keyboard.

I melted one C547B trying different transistors, so something is happening!

Hooked up 2n3055 with a heatsink and that does not get hot. Pot is set to 22k.

I will continue on it tomorrow.


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2017, 10:28:13 PM »
Naah :( This is one of the simplest circuits so the fault might be between the chair and the keyboard.

I melted one C547B trying different transistors, so something is happening!

Hooked up 2n3055 with a heatsink and that does not get hot. Pot is set to 22k.

I will continue on it tomorrow.

Do you mean BC547B (Ic<300 mA) or 2SC547B (Ic<1A)? Neither one of these are really suitable because... as you found out... the Slayer circuit can draw a lot more than 1A especially if it isn't oscillating properly.

The 2n3055 should work though and it can handle the current.

For the 2n3055 you probably should be using a Base resistance value quite a bit less than 22k, depending on the supply voltage.

Can you post a schematic of the _exact_ circuit you are using? Did you try my suggestion of reversing the connection of the Primary coil?


Meanwhile... back at the ranch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcwLFNfxIe8

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2017, 10:35:09 PM »
@Mags
Your speakers are awesome. I've built a few bass-port and infinite baffle enclosures myself, long ago; supplied a few of my high school mates with awesome speaker cabinets for their stereos. But that was long ago, before you could get anything like the modern high-power portable amps and ultrastrong speaker magnets of today.

Now these big bass boomers in cars really annoy me as they drive by. Not because of the sound itself, but because of the massive distortion (trunk lids rattling, etc.) and the lousy music choices. I wonder if we could design some kind of interference field that I could use to put up a "bubble" around the house so those amps wouldn't work within, say, 100 feet of the property.


Offline citfta

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2017, 11:27:52 PM »
@Mags
Your speakers are awesome. I've built a few bass-port and infinite baffle enclosures myself, long ago; supplied a few of my high school mates with awesome speaker cabinets for their stereos. But that was long ago, before you could get anything like the modern high-power portable amps and ultrastrong speaker magnets of today.

Now these big bass boomers in cars really annoy me as they drive by. Not because of the sound itself, but because of the massive distortion (trunk lids rattling, etc.) and the lousy music choices. I wonder if we could design some kind of interference field that I could use to put up a "bubble" around the house so those amps wouldn't work within, say, 100 feet of the property.

If you invent it I will gladly pay any reasonable fee up to a thousand dollars or so for one of your units.  It drives me crazy that clowns can drive down the road with the pretend music so loud I can hear it inside my basement workshop.  I think it would need a range of 1000 feet or so as I can easily hear some of them from well over 500 feet away.

Carroll

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2017, 11:27:52 PM »

 

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