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Author Topic: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems  (Read 20676 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2017, 10:23:23 PM »
The problem with the 100% acoustical efficiency is if you have an identical speaker/subwoofer, as a microphone, 1 meter apart from the active speaker, it cannot pick up the same energy as you put into the active speaker.
The air between have too much loss to activate the "receiver speaker" in a way that it can deliver 1W from its moving voicecoil.


The efficiency is measured at 1 meter. What happens if you move the mic 0.5 meter closer? Is the efficiency 400% because it sounds 6dB louder there? No, you can't. Even if you glue the membranes together on both active and passive speaker, you cannot get more energy out of the other voicecoil as you put in to the active one.


That's why you cannot compare acoustical efficiency the same way as you do with a motor.


Vidar

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #105 on: September 20, 2017, 10:23:23 PM »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #106 on: September 20, 2017, 10:46:03 PM »
The problem with the 100% acoustical efficiency is if you have an identical speaker/subwoofer, as a microphone, 1 meter apart from the active speaker, it cannot pick up the same energy as you put into the active speaker.
The air between have too much loss to activate the "receiver speaker" in a way that it can deliver 1W from its moving voicecoil.


The efficiency is measured at 1 meter. What happens if you move the mic 0.5 meter closer? Is the efficiency 400% because it sounds 6dB louder there? No, you can't. Even if you glue the membranes together on both active and passive speaker, you cannot get more energy out of the other voicecoil as you put in to the active one.


That's why you cannot compare acoustical efficiency the same way as you do with a motor.


Vidar

I keep hearing you say it...

If the speaker is 105db@1w 1 meter it is considered 20%efficiency. 

Now if we measured it a .5 meter it would read 6db more, 111db, but still an eff of 20%. 
 
.25 meter would read 6db more for 117db, but the eff is still the same.

The distance is relative to the reading not eff. It just so happens that they measure it at 1 meter, of which if the speaker were 112db @1w at 1 meter, the Pin would equal Pae, which would be 100%eff Pin = Pout.  Now if we have 8 of the pioneer 12s @105db sense, total of 1 w in, we would be at 114db @1w at 1 meter. 158%eff Pin vs Pout(Pae). Now we go 16 12s. Puts us at 117db @1w at 1 meter and gives us 316.22%eff.. 

I dont see why you dont see it.  It took me weeks to get them to understand that resistance is not the cause of the 50% loss connecting a full charge cap to an empty then calculate the total energy. Maybe it will take a while to hammer it in here also..... ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #107 on: September 20, 2017, 11:06:34 PM »
Also Im not talking about transferring power from one speaker to another to try for OU. Never said so. But if I did I would go isoloaded first. Speakers face to face mounted with very little air space between to squeeze. Just enough of a spacer so the rubber surrounds dont have a chance to rub. Then to do a better yet, make a ring that would physically bind the cones together eliminating air compression all together then put it in a vacuum. lol. next step would be to take advantage of resonance in the system. What ever the resonant freq of the 2 bound speakers rings at(about an octave down from 1 speaker alone, then redo the test. Then get some box resonance in the mix.

The idea of isoloading, clamshelling speakers, is the combo will work in half the volume box as well as 1 speaker in 2 times the vol. With the exception of needing twice the power, but the box is smaller if need be.  And there is a certain quality that an isoloaded enclosure has that seems to out do a single sub in the larger box.

In the tests above, I would go first no box at all. just the speakers.  But Im not and havnt suggested doing so, you did. Im just pointing out the gains and how can we get that with circuits and or motors.  You repeatedly say we cant. Thats not going to stop me. ;) Nope.

Mags
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 05:03:07 AM by Magluvin »

Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #108 on: September 20, 2017, 11:33:06 PM »
hmm please educate me.

I got a slayer exciter pushing 5V into my primary and secondary shows 200V. This is nice because the secondary feeds back to the circuit and I can play around it and it still keeps resonance.

Now my third coil gets about 5V in at the moment and that I feed into a FBR -> cap -> LED -> back to FBR. Cap shows 3.6V and this should light up my 3V LED just fine. LED has just a slight dim light on it.
LED gets a bit brighter if touch the cap's metal case.

What is the circuit missing? Does my body add more capacitance to the circuit or am I the "ground" in this?

Offline citfta

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #109 on: September 21, 2017, 12:56:10 PM »
Hi Mags,

I can verify some of your idea with a device I built.  Out of curiosity I built an air cored motor/generator.  I knew the output would probably be low because of not having any cores.  I just wanted to see how far I could push it and what I would get.  I originally built it with only two coils.  They were trifilar with two windings being the drive windings and one winding being the output winding.  With only those two coils and a rotor made of alternating polarity magnets my efficiency was only 17%.  When I added two more coils my efficiency went up to 23%.  I have not had time to work on it any more but I suspect as I add more coils the efficiency will continue to go up.

Take care,
Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #109 on: September 21, 2017, 12:56:10 PM »
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Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #111 on: September 21, 2017, 06:46:47 PM »
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Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #111 on: September 21, 2017, 06:46:47 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #112 on: September 21, 2017, 11:14:33 PM »
Hi Mags,

I can verify some of your idea with a device I built.  Out of curiosity I built an air cored motor/generator.  I knew the output would probably be low because of not having any cores.  I just wanted to see how far I could push it and what I would get.  I originally built it with only two coils.  They were trifilar with two windings being the drive windings and one winding being the output winding.  With only those two coils and a rotor made of alternating polarity magnets my efficiency was only 17%.  When I added two more coils my efficiency went up to 23%.  I have not had time to work on it any more but I suspect as I add more coils the efficiency will continue to go up.

Take care,
Carroll

Hey Carrol

Very good. Can you describe how you performed the eff tests?

See I believe that the more drivers that affect a particular medium, air by way of pressure, rotor by way of pressure to turn, etc should be the same effect.

As much as I have looked, you wont find much out there that gets into the actual eff of speakers. Many of the audio forum threads on this, articles on eff of speakers, seem to mostly just fall back onto Db@1w at 1 meter. And the very very few that actually describe real eff(Pin vs Pout) tend to set the upper limits of what they show to 105db of which is 20%eff. Id say they dare not show the eff of a 112db sensitivity speaker which would be 100%, even though the 112db speakers are out there, and Im still searching for at least 1 that may be higher than 112db. Would be interesting to list a speaker out there as being say 120db sensitivity, and see if some take notice. :o ;D

The eff level that Vidar laid claim to for a 96db@1w speaker as 1%eff seems very low and miserable and he wont seem to acknowledge that there are higher eff speakers like the Pioneer pro 12 I have at my shop now that is 105db@1w which is 20%eff. Like the only pertinent numbers to follow are the 1%level or they are the only ones that count and there isnt much to go beyond that level. Thats how I take his argument on it anyway. Truth is, 96db speaker is about 2.5%eff. A 102db@1w is 10%eff. Then 105db1w is 20%eff.  Once you get out of the area of 92db1w which IS 1%eff, the eff seems to climb rapidly. 112db1w is 100%eff. 114db1w is 158%eff. etc.

He made the claim of 1%eff. But if I show that a 112db@1w speaker is 100%eff, then he says that those eff numbers cannot be applied to motors and such. Well then what sort or kind of efficiency definition does the tiny 1% he described follow? Is it a different eff than we all know about? An eff that when the numbers do represent 100%, then that efficiency is not the same as other efficiency.

I just dont buy it.

I have just gotten a very large archive of older speakers with specs. Have to look at specs 1 at a time. Wish it were a spread sheet to just look down the sensitivity numbers.

My buddy with the 6 gigantic 3000w 15in subs $600ea and 3 5kw amps $1700ea, built the pioneer 12s box like im building for his friend, 6 12s, and only 3 pio amps 5200w and he now admits I was right. it beats his truck hands down. $10,000 in equip vs less than $1000 in pioneer eqip.  It was the db@1w numbers that did it. His 15s are 88db@1w and the pioneer champ 12s are 96db@1w.

Ok, back to work....

Mags
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 08:05:37 AM by Magluvin »

Offline citfta

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #113 on: September 22, 2017, 01:18:55 AM »
Hi Mags,

The efficiency was calculated by comparing the input current and voltage (DC) with the output current and voltage after it was converted to DC and applied to some different value resistors until I found a resistor value that gave what I considered a reasonable value for the output.  What I mean by that is that with a very high value resistor of course the current would be very low but the voltage would be very high.  I adjusted the resistance value until I was able to get about the same output voltage as the input voltage and then measured the current through the resistor to calculate the efficiency.

After working through that for the two coil system I then did the same thing after I added the other two coils.  And as I posted the efficiency went from 17% to 23%.  This was all a fairly crude system with no real precision workmanship as I only wanted to see what I could get by driving and using air cored coils.

I converted the AC from the magnets passing the coil by feeding that to a bridge rectifier and then connecting that to a cap to smooth the DC pulses.  My input voltage and output voltage were both around 20 volts.  The input current for two coils was around 100 milliamps or so and for the 4 coil system about 150 milliamps.  I don't remember the exact values for the output currents but I do remember the efficiency figures.  I have the output current values in my notes somewhere but didn't look them up before starting this post.

Take care,
Carroll

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #114 on: September 22, 2017, 02:02:25 AM »
Hi Mags,

The efficiency was calculated by comparing the input current and voltage (DC) with the output current and voltage after it was converted to DC and applied to some different value resistors until I found a resistor value that gave what I considered a reasonable value for the output.  What I mean by that is that with a very high value resistor of course the current would be very low but the voltage would be very high.  I adjusted the resistance value until I was able to get about the same output voltage as the input voltage and then measured the current through the resistor to calculate the efficiency.

After working through that for the two coil system I then did the same thing after I added the other two coils.  And as I posted the efficiency went from 17% to 23%.  This was all a fairly crude system with no real precision workmanship as I only wanted to see what I could get by driving and using air cored coils.

I converted the AC from the magnets passing the coil by feeding that to a bridge rectifier and then connecting that to a cap to smooth the DC pulses.  My input voltage and output voltage were both around 20 volts.  The input current for two coils was around 100 milliamps or so and for the 4 coil system about 150 milliamps.  I don't remember the exact values for the output currents but I do remember the efficiency figures.  I have the output current values in my notes somewhere but didn't look them up before starting this post.

Take care,
Carroll

Very cool. Ok

So now if you double your drivers your eff should improve once again. Double again, gain again. ;)

Now imagine if you worked on just a 1 coil setup and worked it till its eff alone were much better, then start adding more. Just like choosing a speaker at 88db@1w vs a speaker that is 96db or even 105db@1w like I have on the bench. Its the same thing, one is more eff than the other. And then if we can increase eff in multiples, I think we are headed in the right direction.

Mags

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #114 on: September 22, 2017, 02:02:25 AM »
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Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #115 on: September 22, 2017, 11:22:47 AM »
Would you guys happen to know a good schematic for an NST type transformer? Would come in handy when trying to replicate Don Smith's devices.

12V DC in, 30mA and 6kV out and with a center tap.

I was just going to order one from China, but it seems they have all kinds of protection systems now so they shut off

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #116 on: September 22, 2017, 11:54:11 AM »
  a.    12V 30 mA DC = 0,36 VA DC not meaned
  b.    12V  ?     A       =  6000V x 0,03A DC= 180 VA DC     
                ? = 180VA DC/12V = 15 A DC
                           "ideal"=100% !
                   real world calculation need

NST type transformer :
http://www.fusor.net/board/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4315

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserclp.htm#clpcps

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #117 on: September 26, 2017, 07:00:42 AM »
My friend with the 6 15s had 10 15in subs made in china. He requested 95db sensitivity. They responded, "are you sure? Do you think there is a market for that?" He said yes.

Been about 4 months and they set a pic of the subs ready to send out. They sent specs (Thiel/Small parameters) with an impedance chart. The sensitivity is 89.5db. Only 1 db higher than the 15s(PSI subs) he has. The company also makes some big brands. So I have concluded that they ditched his 95db request as it would compete hard against their big customers. ;)

They ask you what custom parameters(specs) you would like from the get go. Then they question the request and then do not provide it the way you ordered it. I would tell them to start over as per the initial request. The whole reason for the 95db sens spec was to be louder with the same power as other competitors. if they questioned the 95db request, then they should have made note of it as being important to the customer. Then just blatantly not give it to you the way you expected.

I inquired with 2 large speaker companies in China through Alibaba and they both offered to send a sample of which i could provide custom specs and they would make that sample for me. So I give them both the parameters of which I wanted 99db sense spec to be had. They both replied back showing me a small pic of a sub they wanted to send as a sample that was in the 80s sense.  ??? So either they would not make a 99db sense sub for me either, let alone 95db for my friend, or their custom spec request is just baloney. 

Just thought I share that

Mags

Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #118 on: September 27, 2017, 01:47:48 PM »
I am having difficulties with coils and their resonance. There is always a problem with leads and other stuff and I think they are included in the coil length. This becomes a problem if you want primary coil to be 1/4 wavelength and secondary full wave.

I think I saw one patent where it stated that changing wire sizes and types would help with this. So if coil is 0,5mm 1000 turns over a pipe you then use tin foil as leads or 3mm cable towards your driver circuit. I think what the text said is that if the leads differ in diameter very much it is not included in your "antenna"

Are there any other tricks I could use to separate coils and their resonant wavelengths from the rest of the circuitry?

Will a cap in parallel separate the coil?

Offline Belfior

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Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #119 on: September 29, 2017, 03:42:13 PM »
another dandy question. How can I pickup the magnetic field that a coil send out, but not the electric field? Putting another coil infront of the first coil in 90 degree angle?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Resonance Circuits and Resonance Systems
« Reply #119 on: September 29, 2017, 03:42:13 PM »

 

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