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New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: Tesla_2006 on October 30, 2006, 01:57:12 PM
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Common rechargeable batteries are free energy devices, is not neccesary build a special battery, I get many kilowatts from battery banks for many years without recharge that and I want resume here my experience
In all electric circuit there is 2 main laws, energy conservation law ( Kirchoff voltage ), charge conservation ( Kirchoff current), this last law is bad in use, when we connect a battery to a resistive load there is a charge flow between the poles, that charge for that law don't loose but goto the opossite pole for get the equilibrium, negative and positive charges go in neutral condition, in any electric circuit the charge in the system
go in conservation, if we move the charges from the battery to the load and then from the load to the battery the energy flow will be for ever
Nikola Tesla at the ends of the 19 century was using common batteries of that epoque for power his remote control vehicles, he build vessels with DC motor
powered form a bank of 4 batteries, that vessels was designed for travel arround the world for go to any place powered only for that battery bank and never
that batteries go in discharge, Tesla known the charge principle of conservation and know how recycle that charges for get the permanent motion of current in the circuits
In a battery there is 2 currents , the electronic current flow out the battery and an ionic current flow inside the battery, that ionic current is composed of
more inertia than the electrons flow out the battery ,then when we open the circuit the electronic current go fast to zero, but the internal ionic current go slow
to zero and then if we open a circuit when a battery is in charge it remains in charge for a certain time
A battery is like a condenser but is not a condenser in the exact term, but when there is a current from a battery it discharge and when a current goto a battery
it charges, for get that charges flow between the battery and the load we must to have at least 3 batteries as show in the following
Case A
*********Rload*********
* *
* -----> I *
2 *
* *
* 3
* *
1 *
* *
* *
**********************
1,2,3 are the batteries, 1 and 2 in series, positive of 1 join to negative of 2 and positive of 3 join to positive of 2
When the system start 1 and 2 are fully charged for example 12V and 3 is discharged or with low voltage, for example 1 Volt, then there is a current flow across the resistive load
and the initial voltage in the load 24 V at maximun power, then 3 begins in charge and 1 and 2 begins in discharge but always in all time the total charge in the system is the same, charges
outgoing from 1 and 2 are received for 3, if that configuration is permanent the system get the equilibrium and the current go to zero but always the charge will be the same in the system
For sure there is a constant current flux the system never must go in equilibrium, then when 3 is being charged we change the configuration to the following
Case B
*********Rload*********
* *
* -----> I *
1 *
* *
* 2
* *
3 *
* *
* *
**********************
In this position 1 and 2 begins discharged at the same voltage and 3 with the few voltage got before cause now a low current for the load but 3 begins in charge because there is the same internal current
than in the case A in the internal of 3, 1 follow giving his charge, 2 begins in charge, the total charge follow constant and then we go to case C
Case C
*********Rload*********
* *
* -----> I *
3 *
* *
* 1
* *
2 *
* *
* *
**********************
Here 1 restore his charge from 2 and 3, 2 remains in charge for the intertial internal currents
and so in the next conmutation we have a new cycle in the case A but charge is the same, if the internal intertial currents don't was considerated 3 will be with the same charge and voltage but if we design the conmutation
frequency is the adecuated 3 finish with more charge and there is more charge in the system but with or without taht charge excess the system remains in constant discharge-charge autopowered for ever
My firsts tests was with little Ni-Cd batteries of 9 V and bulbs and the system never stop for months
With this 3 batteries the load voltage may be inadecuated for a specific load 24 V in load for 12 V batteries
For get the maximun performance Tesla then use 4 batteries in the following setup
Case A
*********Rload*************
* * *
* -----> I * *
2 * *
* * *
* 3 4
* * *
1 * *
* * *
* * *
**************************
1 and 2 in series , 3 and 4 in paralell, 1,3,4 have the same negative pole, 3 and 4 are in serie with diodes for don't existence of currents between them, at start all batteries are full charged and so, 1 and 2 go in discharge passing his charge to 3 and 4
and if all the batteries are the same and of 12 V there is 12 V in the load ai maximun current I and power, then after a certain time the setup changes to the case B
Case A
**********Rload********
* * *
* * *
* * I <----- *
* * 3
1 2 *
* * *
* * 4
* * *
* * *
**********************
Now changes, 1 and 2 in paralell with his diodes and 3 and 4 in series, 3 and 4 return the charges to 1 and 2 and I invert his direction to maximal power and so the cycle repeats and the system remains autopowered for ever
Depending of battery quality the system for many kilowatts remains autopowered for years not only for the charge conservation law, beside for the inertial ionic current effect appears a excess of charge
I test and use this devices with resistive load and DC motors and DC / AC converters
Control circuits are oscillators and power actuators are diodes and transistors
Of course batteries are not designed for eternal life but with this methods you never need recharge in all his useful life
In consequence any common battery is a free energy device
Thanks
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Hi Tesla_2006,
This seems a little vague for me to fully understand what you are proposing exactly.
When you say that after a period of time the configuration is switched, what period of time do you mean? Is it after the first configuration is discharged and the bulb no longer lights, or is it after an hour, or after a minute, or what time period is used?
Also, are there any other components left out of the diagram, such as resistors, capacitors, etc. Maybe you could give a more exact diagram. Components clearly identified, such as 9 volt battery, 2 volt light, etc.
Perhaps you could clearly label a configuration that you successfully operated for a long period of time. This would be very much appreciated and would help a great deal to clarify what you mean.
Thanks for all your effort. We appreciate the information.
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Hi Tesla_2006
Very cool thing you got happeneing there. You have explained it very well although I too aren't completely sure about some of your connections. For example where are the diodes installed and in what direction? Like resinrat says it would be nice to know more about the switching circuits.
A clear diagram of the most basic system will be helpful for sure in clarifying the concept.
But thanks for sharing this interesting idea and hope we hear more from you.
Best Regards,
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Folks
please have a look at the picture attached.
Tesla_2006, please correct me if there is a mistake.
The reason for the diodes is that the batteries can not work against each other ( not one batterie o the same voltage-specification has the exact voltage like another ) because of small voltage-differences there would be a mutual ping-pong charge-discharge-efect. If left for some time ( poles connected without Diodes) the batteries kill themselves.
Kator
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Folks
please have a look at the picture attached.
Tesla_2006, please correct me if there is a mistake.
The reason for the diodes is that the batteries can not work against each other ( not one batterie o the same voltage-specification has the exact voltage like another ) because of small voltage-differences there would be a mutual ping-pong charge-discharge-efect. If left for some time ( poles connected without Diodes) the batteries kill themselves.
Kator
have you tryed this configuration in real life? if so what were the results.
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never mind
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Hello,
You can take a look at this site. it gives details about battery recharging system and Tesla switch.
http://www.linux-host.org/energy/bedtes.htm
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Thanks for the diagrams, but this is the part that is driving me insane.
Has anyone built a working unit that is in existance right now and is working. That is what I am looking for. Again, it says right in the website that the author never built it, and he thinks some things look wrong with it. Along with a warning that batteries could explode if something is faulty. This really makes me feel confident.
Helllloooooooooooooooo out there in the internet universe. Does anyone have a working unit. Helllllloooooooooooooooooo! Cruel world. Is the world filled with a bunch of con-men or is there a honest person out there who actually built something that is working?
Hopefully Tesla_2006, who started this thread and claimed to have operated a working unit, could give us an answer. We all wait with anticipated energy.
Sorry if I sound sarcastic but I am frustrated by this whole area. It seems filled with false hope and information. Somebody prove me wrong PLEASE!!! Or is this just another Gravity-Mill? A great idea that doesn't work?
Come on people, cut the garbage and give us the TRUTH!!!!!
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The belgian publication BE438189 (4.3.1940) from Edouard Paul
de Buyst explains a Motor/Generator/Battery-closed cycle-concept,
this seems similar to the Tesla_2006 trials.
S
dL
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It could be,
that it only workswith mechanical switches, but not with transistor switching.
It might just need the Newman spark gap effect to get additional
charges into the circuit.... !
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Resinrat,
You want to see a Working Gravity Mill???????
Have a look at this adress>
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hl8dM2wQB4k
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Hi Joe,
Thanks for the link, I watched the video but I am not convinced that this is a continuous moving apparatus. I believe the video is so short because it will start slowing down and stop. So, again we have a unit that does not do what it claims. It is slimly possible that I am wrong and this and it is an overunity device, but I don't think so. :-\
Our goal is a device that produces more power than is required to operate it. So far, I am still waiting for Tesla_2006 to give us a working circuit. I hope he does and that I am proved wrong, but I don't go for vague, untested devices. Let's have some specifics please, and thank you.
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true, it's a 3d render 4sure
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Replication is the answer-
I suggest some of us give tesla_2006's 3 battery set up a try. If you have some good results then you can move onto the 4 battery system. Regardless of if someone presents a system very clearly or not it still needs to be replicated by people you know and can trust.
Best yet is if you can test it yourself to see if the system has any merit or not. I say let's get 3 small rechargeable batteries and give it a try to see what happens.
Best,
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Hello,
Last night I did the test with 3 / 1.25 volts rechargeble batteries and a 3 volts flash lite bulb. I did as per the attachement and to make a short story, the low battery was recharged after half of an hour. Finally all the low batteries were moved to position 2 and position 1 and they were recharged. I conclude that it is a working principle.
While testing, i can see that the bulb's light is dimmer than with ordinary arrangement. I mean ( positive/ bulb / negative) Why? i can't tell.
I will try it with 12 volts batteries as soon as I can get high voltage diodes for the set up.
Regards Joe
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Give attentention to test the TRUE charging.
Because if the Voltage "shown OK"
must not be charged ANY usual Power in the battery.
If you test the Voltage without any Load an the Battery ,
you must also compare the Voltage under Load.
Exp. Blub 1 , 5 and 10 Watts.
Compare than this tested volages with an "normal" recharged battery.
If this test give an good result , let it us know.
pese
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Thanks Pese,
Next weekend I will retry the test and will compare a battery that is charged with a battery charger with the same voltage and the one that i am charging with the Tesla arrangement.
I will load them with the same bulb individually and then we will know wich one of the 2 batterries is going to last longer.
I will let know as soon as i conduct the test.
Regards Joe
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Great Work Joe-
Glad someone has given it an initial test run. Encouraging results to begin with thats for sure. Pese is right as the batteries need to be tested under a load to be certain.
Good start though and we'll all look forward to hearing more about your experiments.
Best,
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Joe,
Thank you very much for the experiments. I really do appreciate what you did.
Question: Do you think using just 1.5 volt batteries for initial experiments would give valid results? I am only wondering this from a safety standpoint. The smaller batteries may be safer to fail rather than the 12 volt. I just don't want to see anybody injured if it is not necessary.
Are you using diodes in your circuit? I assume you are.
Also, how did you determine when to change the connections? Did you just wait a half-hour each time or did you do it by monitoring the charge levels of the batteries?
Sorry for all the questions, I am just trying to get as much information on what you did as I can. Thanks again.
I think my initial experiments will be on these smaller batteries. Going up to the 12 Volt right away kind of gives me an uneasy feeling.
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Hello Folks,
please note the scam-alert in the category : Money makes the world go round ,
section :
investment scams, warning about fraudulent offers
Info about Tesa_2006.
His MEG-Version he offeres does not exist. Do not send money for nothing !
So do not waste time on the subjects he brings up here.
Kator
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ARRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here we go again! Another crook!!!!! >:(
This kind of stuff is really making me lose faith in humanity.
Thanks for the info :'(
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Hi -
I did the same 3 small rechargeable battery setup as Joe. I fully charged 2 batteries and the 3rd battery was dead(decharged)
First try I used a 8w 12volt bulb but it drew only 100ma. Thought I'd better draw more current than that because it would run a mighty long time before drawing down. After many many hours I did get the dead battery charges up to 1.25 volts but under a load it faded quickly. So am now drawing 400 ma. Didn't know how long to go before switching. Decided to try switching when the amp guage went down to 200ma which takes about 30 minutes or more to get it down there in my setup.
Did the battery switch in every position and did end up with a fully charged #3 battery :) which seemed to compare well to the original fully charged batteries under the same load.
Thats encouraging I think, except that now one of the other batteries is now the new dead one and so around you go again. Thats what I am doing now to see how I end up after the second go around.
Will keep you posted.
PS. Just guessing but its probably OK to use the bigger 12 volt batteries so long as one doesn't draw too much current.
Best,
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Hello Guys,
Yes I agree, this is a serious free Energy site so we don't need those kind of people here.
About my setup, i will take some photos of it this week end and post it.
Resinrat, about your first question i can't anwser it right now cause i am only testing with small rechargeble batteries and as far as i see it does work. But I can't conclude for real that those batteries will stay charged for a long period of time. Only time will tell us.
I am going to test it for weeks and then i will be able to say that it is working or not.
Second question, no i don't use diodes cause batteries have too low voltage (1.20 v.) When we use diodes we are loosing about 0.6 volts so the batteries would died in minutes.
Next question, i waited for the voltage to drop from 1.20 Volts to .90 volts V. so with the kind of bulb i am using it takes about 1/2 hour to reach th .90 V.
So, so far so good and the next experiment would be with 12 volts car batteries. I will have to get for the test 3 or 4 12 volts batteries with the same amperage. This way i will be able to meusure the voltage up and down with precision.
But to tell you frankly, it is a bit scarry cause you never know what could happen with high amperage. Especially reverse connections like that ??? ???
Anyway, i will keep inform of my results this week end.
Regards Joe
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Hello Folks,
please note the scam-alert in the category : Money makes the world go round ,
section :
investment scams, warning about fraudulent offers
Info about Tesa_2006.
His MEG-Version he offeres does not exist. Do not send money for nothing !
So do not waste time on the subjects he brings up here.
Kator
Excuse me Kator, but working on the MEG is by no means a waste of time!!! In fact, the MEG probably has the best chance of generating "free energy" than any machine to date.
Your statements should be a little clearer. Last month you were trying to tell us the MEG generates deadly ultrasonic waves, which is completely incorrect and disinformation.
Paul Lowrance
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Hello PaulL,
I didnt state that the MEG emits deadly sonic waves. I simply gave an indication that these waves must occur especially if you run it like J.Naudin by switching the magnet with bucking fields.
Whether you accept the negative effects of supersonic-waves on tissue or not is not of importance here. A shielding of these Waves is another step to do in this development, later.
It is up to anyone to develop anything he likes in this area. I only stated this warning because these waves are not easy to detect.( You remember Madame Curie ? She was unconscious of the radiation and died because of this - I know this is a bad comparison example ) No one ever thinks about the supersonic-screening of pregnant-women and the effect it has to the little organism.
I simply care about safety.
It is almost interesting: everytime I give this indication about this superrsonic-waves created by Lorentz-Forces and even when I give you valuable references of serious scientific-institues who have the knowledge about this I either face total silence or a reluctant attitude.
Did you ever read what I had given as an reference ? ( EMUS-Converter, german-development )
Supersonic waves, if created in this device, combine with the electromagnetic flux-variation. It is an additive factor especially because they also create heat in the core, not eddy-currents ( nano-core hardly has eddy-currents)
I am really curious why you are so reluctant to my statements.
I will not touch this subject anymore because it is clear to me, scientiically as well as technically.
PaulL, let everyone here in this community decide for himself whether it is worth to continue with the MEG or not.
I simply give my input here, criticism involved and necessary or progess.
Now your second remark : Waste of time ? I really wonder if my english is so bad that you get it all wrong. This guy steals time and energy and money as well from people here and maybe in other similar communities. Any person who does this is not worth to be taken serious any longer, his posts included.
Waste of time relates to reading and experimenting on things he posts here.
It costed me nearly one day til I found the truth about this person because of a member here who I watched my reaction to Tesala_2006-posts.I watched this MEG-stuff since years now and wish you the best for your new approach on this.
Kator
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pg46,
Thanks for the info. and the details. It looks like it has some promise. I am going to hold off getting too excited because we are looking for a long term energy generation. I do appreciate your efforts and I look forward to your results on future cycles.
I may be a pessimist but my guess is the system will just gradually run down. It looks to me like all that is being done is the energy is being moved around. It probably won't last any longer than how long the light would take to deplete three batteries. Just a guess, and I could be wrong. It might last longer though, because the bulb is burning with less intensity, but it should still run down. Not last for for long periods of time like Tesla_2006 claimed.
Funny how he never got back to this thread.
I hope I'm wrong.
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Hey Joe,
Thanks for the answers to my questions. I look forward to the pictures of your setup when you are able. Please, please be very careful with those 12V setups. Man, keep your eyes (smoke), ears (sizzle), and nose (fire) on red alert at all times. This is what makes me cautious. This is a strange setup and we don't want anybody hurt. Especially if it holds no benefit.
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I didnt state that the MEG emits deadly sonic waves. I simply gave an indication that these waves must occur especially if you run it like J.Naudin by switching the magnet with bucking fields.
You did Kator. Here are your quotes,
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=30.msg11974#msg11974
Paul,
I just metioned that all experiments with the MEG including the HOPE delivered not enough energy to light up an incandescent bulb for proof. They always used neon-lights.
The second thing I mentioned is that in the MEG and related techiques there are supersonic waves generated because of Lorenz-Forces. These Lorenz-Forces are created by the bucking-fields ( created by the driver-coils). No one ever thougt about this. These sonic waves can become very nasty and are unhealthy. One has to be carefull getting to close to the system.
Kator
Paul,
I remember that Naudin himself pointed out the strong electromagnetic field around the MEG. No I do not have contact to Naudin.
For basic of what I mean please look at this
http://www.ndt.net/article/0398/huebsch/hueb.htm
The Frauenhofer-Institut is a German High-Tech-Deveopment Institut.
The basic principle consists of creating supersonic sound by direct interaction of magnetic fields within matter.
There is no transducer necessary. I hit a page where it was stated that they explore the technique to generate
supersonic sound in the GigaHerz-frequency-range. Standard medical equipment for sound-screening ( pictures of the fetus of pregnant women ) is in the range 1,7 to 17 MHz. Very dangerous for the unborn baby.
It leads too far in this category here but supersonic-sound is dangerous for the cells because it creates sonoluminiscence in the body-water although no that strong as in the scientific experiment we all know of.
The Ultraviolett flashes of the cololapsing bubbles have a temperature of about 10 000 degrees Celsius in piko-seconds. The UV-Light, even if it is very weak cracks the DNA ( example : sunburns and skin-cancer by UV-A )
It might be new to you but this is not desinformation or info to create panic. There are some reliable scientists here in germany who speak of this danger and have evidence.
The same goes for the cellular phones. Brain-Cells get holes burned in by standard-energylevel (gigaherz radiation) of cellular phones. I will post the pictures of this here later. I have to search for the info on my other computer
I personally abondoned this MEG-Stuff. It is a dead-end so far. The same is true for the HOPE.
Kator
See your quoted red text above. Sounds very clear to me.
Whether you accept the negative effects of supersonic-waves on tissue or not is not of importance here. A shielding of these Waves is another step to do in this development, later.
It is up to anyone to develop anything he likes in this area. I only stated this warning because these waves are not easy to detect.( You remember Madame Curie ? She was unconscious of the radiation and died because of this - I know this is a bad comparison example )
There you go again. Of course it is a terrible comparison because Madame Curie died of X-rays, not ultrasonic! Please, anyone who is reading this do not allow such disinformation to scare you.
It is almost interesting: everytime I give this indication about this superrsonic-waves created by Lorentz-Forces and even when I give you valuable references of serious scientific-institues who have the knowledge about this I either face total silence or a reluctant attitude.
Kator, are you kidding me? I replied to all your posts. You are the one who ignored my reply. Here's the link to my post, which you never replied to -->
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,30.msg11974.html#msg11974
I then made a huge post in the News section attempting to clear up your disinformation, which again you did not reply.
Did you ever read what I had given as an reference ? ( EMUS-Converter, german-development )
Of course I read them. I replied showing your error. I gave you tons of references showing that deadly ultrasonic waves do not travel through air. Furthermore, it would require the person to place their face directly to a transducer that generated an incredible amount of ultrasonic energy to harm a person much less kill them! Doctors place such transducers on pregnant women and I can promise you those transducers are designed to generate a lot of ultrasonic relative to any MEG.
Supersonic waves, if created in this device, combine with the electromagnetic flux-variation. It is an additive factor especially because they also create heat in the core, not eddy-currents ( nano-core hardly has eddy-currents)
You mean the core does not generate *macro* eddy currents. The core does indeed generate a tremendous amount of *micro* eddy currents near every avalanche. The electromagnetic flux-variation you are talking about occurs in every transformer. We've had transformers since the days of Tesla. I take the information you spread very serious.
I am really curious why you are so reluctant to my statements.
I already provided the links to your quotes that clearly demonstrate you were the one who quite and did not reply and that I replied to your posts.
I will not touch this subject anymore because it is clear to me, scientiically as well as technically.
Typical of disinformationist to hit and run because they can't back up their lies.
For those interested in real science that *pertains* to the MEG -->
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1489.0.html
PaulL, let everyone here in this community decide for himself whether it is worth to continue with the MEG or not.
I'll continue to attempt to stop disinformation so that people can have the truth. I take your disinformation very seriously.
Now your second remark : Waste of time ? I really wonder if my english is so bad that you get it all wrong. This guy steals time and energy and money as well from people here and maybe in other similar communities. Any person who does this is not worth to be taken serious any longer, his posts included.
Waste of time relates to reading and experimenting on things he posts here.
It costed me nearly one day til I found the truth about this person because of a member here who I watched my reaction to Tesala_2006-posts.I watched this MEG-stuff since years now and wish you the best for your new approach on this.
You need to be very clear that you are not suggesting it is a waste of time to work on the MEG.
Regards,
Paul Lowrance
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Hey Kato01 and PaulLowrance,
Go get your own thread to beat up each other on, you are way off the subject so please do not waste space on this thread with your beefs.
Go start an MEG thread, or whatever you guys are arguing about.
Sheese!!!!
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lol ::)
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Tesla switch is very interesting concept. According to Bedini it does work, he even sold a few copies of his solid-state switch plans. I personally haven?t built it yet (priorities?), but I would agree with Harti, mechanical switch would be better. As far as speed of switching is concerned it should be in the range of 100 ? 800 Hz (higher is dangerous, batteries ? 12v acid ? could explode). My hunch is that the resonance point of all 4 (3) batteries should be found (in the above mentioned range). Original Tesla switch is consisted of 4 batteries and they discharge-charge in serial-parallel fashion and vice-versa 100-800 times per second.
Hopefully this will help someone with time and resources to conduct an experiment.
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Thanks Kreten33,
Sorry everyone, I guess I'm very new to this overunity stuff. I didn't realize that this is a well known Tesla Switch concept that is all over the net. Now I feel like I just wasted people's time and I wasted space here on this forum. Next time somebody please stop me.
Interesting experiment though, I'm going to try a few of my own (with small Ni-Cad batteries) just for grins. Go back to the important things you are doing everyone. Thanks.
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ResinRat2,
I apologize for interrupting your thread. Not sure what else I should have done when I see someone who repeatedly posts disinfo.
Regards,
Paul Lowrance
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If you have actually read Teslas original manuscripts, you would know tesla stated in no uncertain terms that if no energy is radiated(resistance-heat-light-RF) then a resonant system will increase in energy as it is added(think superconductors).He also patented an apparatus for supercooling resonant transformers with this in mind as he stated in that patent. As well Tesla mentioned that a purely inductive resonant system with no losses can consume no energy, the shuttling of energy would be perpetual-as conventional physics is in compete agreement with. The bigger problem I see with this battery shuttling scheme is halfwits using non-rechargable 6volt lantern batteries and resistive loads and then crying we have all been decieved, it does not work,burn the witch-burn the witch!! I call this the moron-factor, persons stating opinion as fact, having no research into the matter and being absolutely clueless as to the working principal. I think we can do better than this-Im hoping anyways.
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After finally reading all the posts I can see we definately need some guidelines.
1)under no circumstances should you use a resistive load,NO light bulbs,NO light bulbs,NO light bulbs, it does not work! If any energy is radiated it is gone.
Induction loads only-pulsed conventional DC motor,pulsed coils-no transformers
2)When using pulsed induction loads you have Bemf to deal with,current flow is always forward so a blocking diode should route current from the common negative terminal between the two batteries and the single battery and should terminate inbetween the switch after the two batteries and the load. In this way when the switch is open the Bemf current is moving in a direction to charge only the single battery after the load,it is called load isolation.
3)large wires, large inductances, small duration pulses(low duty cycle),If there is any heat reduce pulse length or increase time between pulses,
4) use relay to switch circuit on and off powered from a seperate circuit so you can measure switching losses seperately. a relay uses the same amount of energy regardless of the load it is switching and handles voltage spikes better.
If you do this you will see the way this circuit is SUPPOSED to work.
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allcanadian,
Thanks for the input. I've come to the conclusion that after reading what you posted, I'm out of my element :-[ and am going to stick to Chemistry.
No sense wasting my time and rehashing what is already known.
Eyes up everybody. Read what he has to say and don't get hurt.
Good luck all.
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As a chemist-a person knowing the scientific process im sure you could do this in your sleep. I realize my last posts may sound condescending, and I don't mean them to be, it just gets really irritating seeing so my people screw this up so badly. I blame this on Mr.Bedini for putting info on the net so generalized it is near useless, if fact it does more harm than good because it is designed to fail as most of his posts are. There is no magic here only requirements, criteria needing to be fulfilled before this technology works, I outlined everyone I know of, the choice to build it and learn what tesla knew is yours to make.
In any case I wish you luck
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allcanadian,
Thanks for the input. I've come to the conclusion that after reading what you posted, I'm out of my element :-[ and am going to stick to Chemistry.
No sense wasting my time and rehashing what is already known.
Eyes up everybody. Read what he has to say and don't get hurt.
Good luck all.
As a researcher who wishes he understood more about chemistry, I have a interesting suggestion for you to research. Try looking arround for information on hutcinsons q-cell or "hyroshima cell". It gives off low voltage and low amperage but it does so with no losses in a non redux cell. Both anode and cathode are aluminum, but there is Rochell salt, CaCO3, and exotic Si compounds chained between anode and cathode acting like an electrolyte. Quite interesting and it has some very convincing evidence behind it. I feel it would be a perfect OU/FE/ZPE research project for a polymer chemist like yourself. Perhaps if you become interested you can use your research facilities to properly develope the layered elecrolyte like we've seen in Lithium polymer cells.
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ARRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Here we go again! Another crook!!!!! >:(
This kind of stuff is really making me lose faith in humanity.
Thanks for the info :'(
I have also started feeling like there are far too many con men out there just trying to make a dollar, and the worst part is those who really do discover funtioning OU/FE/ZPE devices fall in to the same pit falls. Rather then giving away the technology and progressing society they try to make money from it and no one invests, till a supressor buys them out, then its time to say goodbye to the technology in question forever. People need to realize that money wont matter half as much when the energy revolution comes. As a matter of fact if I discovered a OU device I would sell clean power back to the grid, and drain the power hungry energy corporations of all their cash. If inventors could just realize spreading the technology is #1 and the money is #2, the better off we all would be. Unfortunately the patent system ruins the potential of that thought ever crossing a inventors mind.
As for all the scam artists who might read this... >:(
F(_)CK Y0U, DON'T YOU REALIZE YOU ARE SLOWLY RUINING THIS SCIENCE? WTF IS YOUR PROBLEM? TOO STUPID TO GET A REAL JOB, IS IT REALY EASIER TO ROB PEOPLE OF THEIR HOPES DREAMS AND MONEY?!?!?!?!?! So in short I hope the scammers/disinformation agents die and fail miserably in life. As a matter of fact if I ever got the chance I would love to use a free energy device to torture a scammer with electroshock... It would be quite ironic you must admit. LOL!
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As a matter of fact if I ever got the chance I would love to use a free energy device to torture a scammer with electroshock... It would be quite ironic you must admit. LOL!
dude chill out, sometimes people just don't know any better. :)
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Hello,
I began testing on the 3 rotation batteries system 2 days ago. I have been working on the device on and off and today i have started the machine at around 9h00 am it is now 7h30 pm, the device is still working on the same rechargeable batteries. I did not have time to take good reading on it but i can tell you that i have switched the batteries 3 time today and the system was recharging the used batteries.
The 3 volts motor draws about .32 amps. I can't connect diodes at the end of those low voltage batteries cause they draw to much juice (.06 to .08 volts)
Anyway, so far, so good. Only time will tell if this system works.
Let you know later about my progress.
Regards Joe
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Hi Joe,
this probably will only work,
if you switch the setup between
the 2:1 and 1:2 battery setup
back and forth pretty fast.
The idea behind it is not to give
the electrolyte enough time to move inside
the battery, but external electrons, cause
they are smaller and lighter, to move...
So better pulse the setup back and
forth with relays and see, how much longer
you can get it to last...
or use the motor to drive a simple selfmade
commutator, which will switch back and forth.
Many thanks.
Am looking forward to your results.
Stefan.
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im not sure exactly but i remember reading something about making the terminals of a battery longer/extended and then you would wrap coil around it - something to do with the earth's magnetic field and the sky's magnetic field working together with the battery setup. im not sure but it was something like that.
anyone heard about something like this before?
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He Joe.
Silicon Diode dof 0,6 to 0,8 Volt (even 1 volt if "surged" maximal Power.
Take Scottky Diodes 0,3 -0.5 Volts drop (from old Computer power Supply (for example)
Or Germanium Diodes (gold bondes diodes) as 1N270 enz.
(you find it in als Computer Platines fro 20 jears ago - or take aold Germaniumtansistors . Collector and Base - Connection only (GE-Transistor you find easyly.
Germanium Devices hav an Vo?tage Drop fro 0,1 to 0,3 Volts
Pese
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A good reference on Tesla 4-battery setup (and Bedini mods) is available at http://www.web-space.tv/free-energy/, select 'Devices Part3' or just click http://www.web-space.tv/free-energy/D3.pdf if you don't want to browse the rest of the excellent material.
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Hi Joe,
what is the capacity of all three batteries ? You will need this for your calculation. Also you must do a permanent monitorig of the motor power-consumption.
Kator
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Thank you all for your comments,
By swithing batteries at every 20 minutes or so they have lasted until last night.
So after 6 days the 3 batteries have lost their strength but not completly so I will leave this test cause I am working on others devices and also i don't have the skill requiring to move further in completing these tests. But it gives me a proof that we can recharge batteries other than conventional way.
Regards Joe
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Joe,
can you please finish this by giving us the info about the capacity of the batteries in ?
Otherwise no one has gained an insight at all and cannot follow up with further testing.
Kator
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Kator,
When you say capacity? Do you mean batteries voltage? Or load amperage?
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capacity of an batterie is the power in Amperes/1 hour.
Example :
Chargeable AA Batteries have about 2000mA/h (500-2700 now) at 1,2Volt
Lead Batteries have 2 Volt each cell . Usefull for Hobby (most buy) are
12Volt 7,2A/h. (6 celles inside) Dimensions about 15x10x6cm (Car Batteries are 40 to 80A/h).
So if when have have an Batterie that hase 2A/h (2Ah) , this will powering
the fully voltage only 1 hour to an load that need 2Amps
Or 10 hours with 200mA load.
If you have an chargeable batterie (german: AKKU) . than it must be loaded with approx. + 20% of power (losses!)
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Ok Pese,
I will check them tonight and i will be back tomorrow with the readings.
Joe
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Hi-
I did a few rounds with the 3 battery set up. I was using the 1.2 volt type AA rechargables with 1750mah capacity.
According to my few tests it was soon apparent that I was going to loose power eventually. I think that this is a good system to get more running time with using your batteries( good efficiency!) but that sooner or later you will run out of power.
I think the system using a battery and 2 capacitors has a much better chance of being successful.
Just my opinion
Best
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Hello
here is an interesting question - If you are using a light bulb which radiates energy as heat-which is lost, why would you think the system could magically charge the batteries?
If however the bulb was replaced with a coil which did not radiate energy-heat-but could do work on a rotor, then maybe the work the coil did would be enough to recharge the batteries. I don't think Bedini knows what he's doing or he's not telling the full story. Energy is conservative- the fact that it happens to move through a coil of wire does not change the amount of energy moving if no energy is radiated, it shuttles from high source(24v) to low sink(12v), the amount of energy does not change so only radiated losses can reduce the systems total.
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as they say energy can not be created nor destroyed but can only change form. so why not use its constant changing of form to run a motor? there must be a way! :-\
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That's my guess, electrical energy to heat is a transformation I do not want. The most basic experiment you can do is to charge a capacitor through a DC motor. Count the revs on a computer fan motor on charge up of cap, when you discharge the cap through the motor without the battery connected you get the same rev's, so as far as the sum of energy is concerned the motor did not exist, so why do we assume the DC motor somehow used or destroyed energy? I have found there is only one requirement for a motor to produce work, current flow, we just assumed that we had to send it back to the source,why not just move the energy from one battery to another and not "use" it.
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That's my guess, electrical energy to heat is a transformation I do not want. The most basic experiment you can do is to charge a capacitor through a DC motor. Count the revs on a computer fan motor on charge up of cap, when you discharge the cap through the motor without the battery connected you get the same rev's, so as far as the sum of energy is concerned the motor did not exist, so why do we assume the DC motor somehow used or destroyed energy? I have found there is only one requirement for a motor to produce work, current flow, we just assumed that we had to send it back to the source,why not just move the energy from one battery to another and not "use" it.
have you seen http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,903.0.html :)
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Hey FreeEnergy
That is exactly what Im talking about! There are a few problems with it though.
1) the cost per watt storage capacity of capacitors is 100x that of lead acid batteries.
2)If your going to bother shuttling charges, the system should be perfectly conservative, that is a pulse of current should move from the source(example 24v) through a motor to the sink(example 12v). The power pulse is then the voltage difference(12v) times current flow(amps) times the duration of the pulse.
3) DC motors when switching short the Bemf wasting it,this shows up as heat and poor efficiency. AC motors have heat/resistance losses as well as conversion to AC losses, but better overall efficiency. I do not like either design- a better option is the Bedini SG a simple pulse repulsion motor. The SG let's the PM on the rotor attract to register(work out), then gives a short duration pulse to the stator electromagnet(minimal heating of coil,small duty cycle), the PM is repelled(work out), when the stator electromagnet is de-energized the forward current or Bemf is routed to the source(24v)as a high voltage spike or can be smoothed with a cap.This is drastically more efficient than conventional motors because of the operation and duty cycle.
4) If using the Bedini SG, the stator electromagnet is the input device. A separate coil should be used as an output, but this output coil should be out of phase with the input, that is the output should not happen at the same time as the input so you stagger the coils on the rotor. As well the output coil should charge the sink(12v) battery and not the two source batteries(24v).
I have learned this from trial and error, mostly error. If you want to understand why it should be done this way visit Bill Beatty's web site on what electricity is , as well as bedini's web site.
best of luck
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IMPORTANT!
All the information that user Tesla_2006 was given I allready knowed. This information is available for years in certain websites. Just talk about that information in a special way like Tesla_2006 did, and everybody beleives you have succesfully built it yourself!
It is interesting to see how many people are gullible beleiving everything without seeing a proof!
Before you congratulate anybody for his/her welldone work and success, investigate the facts. Without proof all is nothing but a story!!
Although the majority of scientists don't beleive in ZPE, they however are rigth to blame a non professional working and a lack of proof for statements. This fortunately does not concern all free energy researcher!
PK
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Hi Stefan,
you are telling us that the Tesla Switch is only working if we use mechanical switches because of needed sparks. This however, is not what Bedini and Bearden was talking about the Tesla switch! In a working Tesla Switch the batteries become a negative resistance because of different speed of electrons and ions. This in the end will gain more energy! It is important to pump a high current in a short time into the battery. If there is a spark or not is not of importance.
PK
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@ fesearcher
It's important to understand a mechanical switch produces no heat, has no voltage drop where a transistor does. The spark is high voltage returning to source, high potential(Bemf) to low potential(source), which no transistor can handle to date.
An inductor converts incoming low voltage Emf, to magnetic field, on collapse there is a transformation, Bemf changes low voltage to near static charge.
So there is a huge difference between mechanical switches and transistors, they are not the same.
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Good Points AllCanadian-
The tesla 4 battery system has really huge potential. You are right, let's be rid of any unneccesary heat losses and use mechanical switching systems.
I have dome some minor testing so far and the system really does look promising. At the worst case, it would at least be a very efficient use of energy with only very small losses if any.
thanks for your input
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Hello PG46
I read the last page, my post from november, it seems like years have passed since that post. I have come so far in such a short time thanks to this forum.
Anyway, I did the tesla battery switch a few years ago and it does work but it has limitations.
Power is one, heat/radiated energy is the enemy here, you need short duration pulses and a low duty cycle, meaning space your pulses out so the coil doesn't get hot, = low rpm
Tesla realized that the higher the working voltage , the lower the losses such as resistance heating, and that more energy could be recovered.
You never return energy to the source if possible, you move from high potential(voltage) to lower potential. Once you get this you can move on to better alternatives, like the coil acting as a DC-DC converter or buck booster- then it converts the source voltage to a higher voltage on the fly and can be returned to the source.
Here's a very intersting lesson in perception, that nobody has considered that I know of.
You pulse 24v(2-12v batteries in series) into the stator coil of a motor, this is travelling to a 12v battery. So 12v(24v minus 12v) at X amps(watts) went through the motor into the 12v battery, then when the switch is opened a Bemf spike is sent to the low potential 12v battery so you get all your energy back right? not really
Where is the other 12v?
If a Bemf spike of let's say 40v is sent to the 12v battery then the minimum voltage allowed into the battery is 12v.
So what happened to the other 12v? from 12v to 0v that didn't go into the battery?
Because Zero volts is the lowest potential of the system and anything under 12v can't go into the battery, where is it?
Heat
A 1000v system losing 12v Bemf is nothing, a 24v system losing 12v Bemf(1/2) is not.
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just wanted a link back to this thread.triffid
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@ Triffid
Thank you for bringing this thread back into the fold ;)
Even if you only meant for it to be a link back it's been an interesting read on a thread related to the Tesla switch and people's experiments and experiences with this circuit from back then until now (2006 - 2008) !
@ allcanadian
I've been wondering for years whether any of these supposedly "Tesla switch" circuits have ever worked for anyone, have you ever had any truly good results such as the Electrodyne experiments where it "is" claimed there was a 3 year usage on their setup driving a motor and the batteries were tested at the end of their experiment and didn't show ANY wear on them???
Without a full disclosure on the full material list and methodology to this experiment I'm afraid I'm still in the dark and apprehensive to try it because if mis configured or mis timed, it could blow up :o
On a side note and not meant to derail this Tesla switch type thread, has anyone ever produced a successful replica of John Bedini's Energizer design with the battery/generator/flywheel/magneto setup? Page 28 of the Free Energy Generation book if you got a copy ;)
I'd really like to try it on a small scale if it's possible but so far I haven't seen or heard anyone claiming and showing such a beast, is possible?
Regards,
Paul
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I recently was nudged towards reading this thread and was intrigued. I've recently been playing with the Imhotep- Bedini fans and was looking at ways to use the output bemf for something other than just charging another battery. While researching DC step down (or up) transformers such as a spark/ignition/inductor coil transformers I found science project material on making your own. These used the magnetic field of the coil itself as a solenoid for a mechanical switch that was pulsing the input power. Since the mechanical switch does not have the electrical losses of the transistors and supporting circuitry I thought it would be an interesting alternative to those components in the Tesla switch - Current Siphon system. I think someone mentioned the need for mechanical switches and purely inductive loads earlier in this thread (allcanadian?) so it made sense.
I reduced the circuit to just the four switches that change battery pairs 1+2 and 3+4 from series to parallel and visa versa. That way I could run the entire circuit from a single 24V 4 pole Omron relay which I "acquired" from work. I worked the spring a bit to make it switch easily at 9 volts. I purchased 4 x 9V NiCds from Radio Shack this morning. (Side bar - I ran those uncharged batteries up to 9.7 volts on the Imhotep-Bedini fan before conventionally charging them. They settled at about 9.4 V after conventional charging. What's up with that!?!) I wired up the Current Siphon through the single 4 pole relay using the relay coil as the load (pure inductive load). i was shooting for a self oscillating relay setup. At first it would only bounce off of the normally closed set of contacts, interupting the circuit and the power to the solenoid and never make the other set of normally open contacts to flip flop the battery arrangement. I finaly tried putting the big cap from a CFL (another Imhotep replication project volunteer) across the "load" solenoid to make sure it crossed all the way over to flip the batteries. It works!
Since I am only switching the batteries and not the load the load is seeing a +9 --> -9V DC pulse. I figured, what the hell? Gotta start somewhere. Plus, that's half way to usable AC...
The one problem I'm having is that the switching is not balanced. It stays on the +9V side almost three times as long as the -9V side. I guess that could be adjusted by changing the cap? I'm not an EE so I'm just working with the basic knowledge of each component type. What do I adjust, and in what way, to get the 50-50 balance in this device?
A few more bits of info:
The Omron relay solenoid appears to be a DC transformer coil and so has two windings. The second winding is used to kill the bemf by putting it through a resistor and LED ( for visual switching confirmation?). I cut this loop to see this "output" vs. the input. It mirrors almost identically the input but at 1/10th the voltage on my o-scope.
The entire circuit is not running perfectly smooth. You can hear (and see on the o-scope) when a contact misses. But it's damn close for a first try!
A few more questions:
Could the relay benefit from something to supress arcing? If so, how to do and keep this solenoid load purely inductive?
Am I messing up the "pure inductive load" with the cap necessary to switch the relay fully? Do I need to have two relays or an 8 pole version to do this properly?
M.
PS. Hi Al!
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One more question I forgot...
I have no diodes in this system right now. I figured the possible hazards due to omitting them were low since I am only working with 9V 120mAh NiCds. I'd appreciate any input on this subjects as well.
M.
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I realized I would likely not be able to balance the switching to 50-50 since the solenoid in the relay was assisted by the spring that closes the normally closed set of contacts. So the original arrangement fights the spring while switching from +9 V --> -9 V, but the spring is helping on the switch back the other way. I had to modify the relay.
First thing was to eliminate the spring. But this spring also holds the switch pivot point together. I glued a tiny aluminum tube to the contact arm as close to the original pivot as I could manage and drilled a matching pin hole through both sides of the relay's clear plastic cover. I now have a straight pin going through the relay cover and through the tube, creating a new hinge. So the spring can be removed without everything falling apart.
After various trials of adding a magnet to the metal back of the contact plate, and moving the solenoid to different distances away, I scrapped the entire idea of using the original coil with it's metal core. I couldn't balance the attraction of the new magnet to this core anyway, so I drilled out the back of the solenoid where the core was attached and removed it. Now the solenoid has an air core. After assembling everything I pushed a few small neo magnets down the coil from the back until they attached to the contact switch plate. The result is a relay that pushes and pulls the contacts via it's reversing magnetic fields as it switches from +9 V --> -9 V and back. It is very stable compared to the original relay and the output wave form is as perfectly balance 50-50 as I can tell on my o-scope. I'm letting it "burn in" in the garage right now and will then charge the (4) x 9 V NiCds back to max over night before trying any run down tests.
I can see chatter and arcing very minimally on the wave form as the contacts open (I assume), so I'd like an answer to the questions about adding caps to suppress this behavior if anyone has that knowledge. I have no idea how to select the best caps for the task if it would even work and/or be beneficial.
Thanks,
M.
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@mondrasek
If you could post a circuit diagram of what you have done that would help, concerning your relay, if you add capacitance across the relay you have basically closed the circuit to some extent and this will dampen the on/off rise/fall times. An easy way to correct your relay is to solder a small piece of copper wire to the top of the relay. This adds mass thus momentum to the part of the relay that is moving so the contacts move fully from one set of contacts to the other, this slows the relay a bit but does not dampen the sharp impulses that are required in some circuits.You can also stretch your spring a bit to help extend the contact motion.
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@allcanadian,
Thanks. This is really frustrating for me since I have noone I know that I can discuss this stuff with in person or by phone.
I've attached the (admittedly poor quality) scan of the copy of what I drew up at work on Friday. I can do better later, but it's what I used to wire the relay.
I've already been using your sugestion for adding mass to the relay switch arm to try and get more stable switching from the start ( I'm an ME so that part was easy). I've been attaching a Radio Shack alligator clip to the tab on the top of the arm where the spring used to hook. That's how I have run this for 90% of the time. It runs right at about 50 Hz. Without the clip it goes much faster, I think at one cycle every .4 msec, if I remember right. But at that speed it is more prone to stopping. It's more out of control.
I can see the arcing across the contacts. I assume that can't be good (another loss). But I'm not sure what to do about or with it.
Ultimately I would like to make a new solenoid to try and tune this and get bemf output for additional work. I have no idea how to calculate the optimum solenoid design for that, but I have more magnet wire arriving tomorrow. Hopefully I can get more help from the forums for that idea as well.
Thanks again,
M.
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Man, I'm a lowsy photog! But here you can kinda see the wave form for the switching voltage. You'll have to take my word that is going from +9 V to -9 V. The scope is an Iwatsu SS-5802 I borrowed from work.
I curious about the decay ramp on each peak. It appears about the mid point of the peaks regardless of what frequency the added weights to the contact arm have caused. Is this the point where the contacts have opened and the cap is the only remaining voltage?
M.
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@mondrasek
I curious about the decay ramp on each peak. It appears about the mid point of the peaks regardless of what frequency the added weights to the contact arm have caused. Is this the point where the contacts have opened and the cap is the only remaining voltage?
I would attribute the decay ramp to capacitance, energy is being stored before the voltage is allowed to change and capacitance will do this, the larger the capacitance the longer the decay ramp. The contact arcing can be minimized by even a very small capacitance which is preferable. I see your setup is a typical series==parallel parallel==series setup, one thing to consider with this setup is the type of load you wish to power. If the load is inductive (coils, motors, solenoids) then the contacts will arc wildly without a capacitance across the contacts. If you can imagine an electric current as having momentum then when you open the contacts this momentum is applied instantly across the contacts gap and could be thousands of volts. You can connect a capacitor across the load if you plan on running inductive loads, a better way is to connect a full wave rectifier where your load is in the diagram--then run your inductive load from the (+)(-) connections on the rectifier, you can then put a steering diode across the load to route the inductive discharge back through the load.
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Currently the load is only the relay solenoid (now an air coil) that is doing the battery switching. The curent it receives needs to cycle polarity to push and pull the contact arm back and forth now since there is no spring mechanism in the relay anymore. For example, I can stop the relay from oscillating and it will not self start since the switch fingers are not touching either contact side since there is no spring or other force to do so anymore. I tap it to one side or the other to make the first battery circuit and it will cause the coil to energize and push or pull the arm to the opposite side to begin the oscillation and start it up. The circuit currently is a closed loop with out an output except for the second coil wraps on the solenoid which I believe are a step down transformer coil to capture the bemf in the relay (when un-modified) that pulses an LED in series with a small resistor. Unfortunately the voltage across this second winding is 1/10 that of the input.
I was thinking the way to have a useful output is to wind a new coil, one that is bifilar with equal numbers of wraps. The second coil should be an isolated output that can go to a rectifier to return 9VDC, right? Or will adding the rectifier simply as you mentioned isolate the relay solenoid from some output of the rectifier that can also be used to power another load? I'm not familiar with rectifiers and will have to read up. Do you have any suggestion for the best componet(s) for the rectifier?
M.
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I thought I'd post a cleaner diagram.
I'm currently investigating the best cap for C1. This cap is necessary to keep the charge and magnetic field on the solenoid while during mid switch where it would otherwise receive no current (break before make type relay). So I am guessing a fast discharge, medium voltage, high capacitance? Suggestions?
I now believe that the second coil in the Omron relay I have modified is just a coil tap. So the wave form across this section should mirror that across the whole coil as I already witnessed (duh).
I'm still toying with the idea of adding caps across each set of contacts to suppress arcing and welcome your input on this subject.
I also wired in a 1:1 transformer in the bottom of the circuit where the battery pair's negative terminals are attached. This is how I hope to decouple another load eventually.
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mondrasek;
A couple of things. Your approach looks interesting. Make sure the batteries are seeing the coil load equally.
Unbalanced batteries will run down the high drain side first and overunity will be hard to achieve. If "push
comes to shove" one could use a multi-pole manual switch to switch "source" and "charge" battery sets again.
See if you can come up with a way to fire single polarity pulse coil b-emf into both sets of batteries simultaneously
using diodes.
Just like a force can do no work unless there is movement. A coil doesn't have a b-emf if the expanding magnetic
field does work or runs into lenz metal. In a relay the magfield does work because it moving the contact pole plate.
Hence the oscilliscope trace shows no trace of coil b-emf pulse with the relay. So you may want to put a raw
open inductor in series with the relay coil through isolating diodes to generate b-emf pulses. Winding dual coils
on the relay will not help this situation. (In a SGS the magnets come around again on a wheel via mechanical
momentum)
Before that you will need to be able to use diodes to isolate parts of the circuit. Use a buzz-light (a flashlight
with clip leads) and put a diode in the circuit. Now flip the diode between leads. *That* is a diode. A silicon
power diode like the 1N4001 creates a .7voltage step because of the way it operates. This is OK for signals but
for power efficiency will lack. Use a Schotky power diode (out of computer switching supplies) with has a lower
threshold or a Germanium power diode for .2volt step. A diode schematic symbol is an arrow with a band. Point
the current in the direction of the diode and band and it will flow. Point the current away from the band and the
diode will block current. The diode can do this almost perfectly in terms of resistance. Use power diodes for
power circuits not those little signal diodes that look like 1/4watt resistors.
That secondary winding on the relay coil needs to be unloaded. If the led lights at all - it is wasting energy
use a power drill to remove the led if you want!
You will have to establish how much overunity or how long an acceptable battery run down time is. Then begin
trying to put additional current load on the circuit. That secondary winding (or transformer) may end up coming
in handy for impedance/voltage adaptation. What is called "interstage isolation" in the business.
:S:MSCoffman
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A couple of things. Your approach looks interesting. Make sure the batteries are seeing the coil load equally.
Unbalanced batteries will run down the high drain side first and overunity will be hard to achieve. If "push
comes to shove" one could use a multi-pole manual switch to switch "source" and "charge" battery sets again.
See if you can come up with a way to fire single polarity pulse coil b-emf into both sets of batteries simultaneously
using diodes.
I only played around with the set up for 10 or 15 minutes last night. Hottest day of the year again yesterday so my garage work area is well above 120F and I can't tollerate that for long. I noticed that the wave form was not perfectly symetric as one side was started with batteries that were not fully charged. So the lower voltage would cause a weaker magnetic field and that side would switch slower and be drained faster. I could balance the wave form by rotating the relay so that gravity was helping the weaker side to switch faster. I think I can use that idea to make a self balancing circuit if I invert the relay. But I first need to replace my allegator clip counter weight with something more ridgid and adjustable for attaining different frequencies. I hate to use super glue as I don't trust it to hold against high frequency vibration, but that might be all I can do on this small scale. I was thinking to glue a thin steel bar to the switch plate arm in place of the allegator clip. To that I could then add small neo's at different distances to adjust switching frequency.
Just like a force can do no work unless there is movement. A coil doesn't have a b-emf if the expanding magnetic
field does work or runs into lenz metal. In a relay the magfield does work because it moving the contact pole plate.
Hence the oscilliscope trace shows no trace of coil b-emf pulse with the relay. So you may want to put a raw
open inductor in series with the relay coil through isolating diodes to generate b-emf pulses. Winding dual coils
on the relay will not help this situation. (In a SGS the magnets come around again on a wheel via mechanical
momentum)
Thanks. That explains the wave form and keeps me from wasting time with a bifilar solenoid coil. I had dreaded the idea of trying to make that and adapt it to work with the existing relay contact arm anyway!
Before that you will need to be able to use diodes to isolate parts of the circuit. Use a buzz-light (a flashlight
with clip leads) and put a diode in the circuit. Now flip the diode between leads. *That* is a diode. A silicon
power diode like the 1N4001 creates a .7voltage step because of the way it operates. This is OK for signals but
for power efficiency will lack. Use a Schotky power diode (out of computer switching supplies) with has a lower
threshold or a Germanium power diode for .2volt step. A diode schematic symbol is an arrow with a band. Point
the current in the direction of the diode and band and it will flow. Point the current away from the band and the
diode will block current. The diode can do this almost perfectly in terms of resistance. Use power diodes for
power circuits not those little signal diodes that look like 1/4watt resistors.
Sorry, I didn't follow the buzz-light bit. I tried to research but the "Buzz Light Year" character clogs the search engines. Could you eleborate?
Thanks also for the info on the different diodes. I'm familiar with the usual voltage drops and had wondered about which type had the least. I didn't know that switching times were so varied as well. But I am having trouble figuring out how to distinguish signal and power diodes. It appears to me that RS does not carry power diodes? Where is a good source?
That secondary winding on the relay coil needs to be unloaded. If the led lights at all - it is wasting energy
use a power drill to remove the led if you want!
You will have to establish how much overunity or how long an acceptable battery run down time is. Then begin
trying to put additional current load on the circuit. That secondary winding (or transformer) may end up coming
in handy for impedance/voltage adaptation. What is called "interstage isolation" in the business.
I had broken the coil tap's led+resistor connection first thing, when I assumed it was to cancel bemf.
The 1:1 transformer I tried is for signal isolation in telephones and came from RS. It is wound around a laminated core. I am guessing I want a low impedence coil instead and so a bifilar air core would be better?
M.
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@mscoffman,
I think I understand the buzz-light bit now. You were just wanting me to see the voltage drop and one way current flow through a diode, right?
M.
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I have looked at this thread and thought that maybe I post something here.Example of theoretical OU device where capacitor may be replaced with battery.I didn't proved it or constructed yet.I believe that it may work ,however is hard to adjust the correct parameters. If you want to know more just ask...
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This guy (tesla 2k6) is impressive. I think that he has read hundreds of books.
I'm researching about one of his theories about how to obtain unlimited battery, but in this case he use another technique.
Follow it at:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5490.0.html
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I placed the little 1:1 telephone transformer in series with the relay solenoid to check for the expected high voltage spikes on the second coil. They were over 100 V, but my o-scope doesn't show them well at all (could be higher?). I put those spikes into a RadioShack bridge rectifier (since I still am not sure where to buy Schottky diodes (Digikey?)). When I fed the output back into the circuit I saw very cool effects immediately. All the batteries started to rise in voltage. But that is not unusual if you spike them with HV as I have learned from the Imhotep-Bedini fan experiments.
Batteries all rose about .4 volts and then started to decay much, much, slower than before the HV feedback was introduced.
The wave form into the relay solenoid is not 50-50 right now, but a bit heavier on the -9V side. I'm not sure why, but the wires in the relay are still acting a bit as a spring helping the switch travel towards that side I guess. I have a 250V 22mf cap in as C1 since it seems to make the circuit run ok. Still not sure what cap would be best here and would appreciate any advice. I have about 8 caps that I have tested that work and was going to take scope pictures and analyze that way, but the Missus has the digicam out with the baby right now.
I know I have losses in the 1:1 transformer as well. What is the best transformer design to minimize losses at 50Hz for such a transformer? Air core? Low resistance? ? ? ?
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mondrasek;
old stuff:
Every electronics device has an identifier such as 1N4001, 1N914, you need
to look these up in a diode handbook (PDF) file from a semiconductor manufacture.
Almost every diode except for the really-really inexpensive kind has their number
printed on the device. Signal diodes use color banding for the digits of the
numbers but can leave the 1N.. designator off sometimes. You'll often see white,
brown, yellow - 914 - 1N914 germanium signal diodes.
the following will tell you various parameters of the device;
In diodes there will be;
Part Number: 1N4001 the 1Nnnnn - are all common diodes
Function: Power,Signal,Bridge,[forget about the following]=> Zener,tunnel,varicap,trigger,Optoelectronic diodes
Process: silicon, germanium, Schotkey => determines the voltage pedestal
PIV - peak reverse voltage - how much voltage can the diode block before it's damaged for 1N4001 - it is 1KVDc
Hf - what is the half frequency the diode can support - 10Mhz. Where half the AC voltage is lost.
FJC - what is the forward junction capacitance - 15pf.
Iac - what is the maximum forward current - 10Amps.
Ir - what is the leakage current at the maximum voltage - xxmilliamps
Generally signal diodes will have under 1 amp of current capacity, very low junction capacitance,
a relatively low breakdown voltage and possibly a very high Hf frequency.
Power diodes will have a very high forward current, somewhat higher leakage than signal, often
have a very high PIV, and often a low to moderate Hf, and much higher junction capacitance.
Note: The old style desktop computer switching power supplies run at 20KHz to 100KHz
switching frequency. Why: to eliminate the bulk of the magnetic cores from the inductors
and trade off: faster diodes, transistors, scr's etc semiconductor speeds to run efficiently
- yet have to handle high current and wattages. So these scrap supplies are a good source of
power components.
try link:
http://www.jameco.com/
under IC& Semiconductors click on diodes and rectifiers
---
On Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuity_tester
A buzz-light a tool and is like two 1.5Volt batteries and a flashlight bulb with a red and black insulated
alagator clip leads in a circuit - very simple. Often you can solder a big needle to the back of one
to serve as a probe. It is used for checking continuity of non-powered circuits like cables or
inductors. The battery voltage at 3Vdc is low so you don't have to worry about the probe blowing
other stuff like semiconductors or wiring out. But the bulb will not light well at resistances above
100 ohms or so, so is kind of a low ohms meter. A diode or power transistor should allow the bulb to
light in one direction then if you reverse the leads the bulb will not light. Often a signal diode
will not have low enough forward resistance to light the buzz-light in the forward direction and
you will have to use a DVM instead.
You can do a simple experiment with a NPN *power* transistor and a buzz-light, you put the buzz light
between the Emitter(-) and Collector(+) then take a 470 ohm resistor from the Collector to the Base.
The 470 ohm resister would not light the buzz light itself but the current amplification gain of the
transistor (a figure called Beta) allows the current through 470 ohm resistor to light the light. Reverse
the leads for an PNP power transistor.
A power semiconductor that does not do the above behavior this is either "burnt out" or "shorted" as in a
failure mode.
You should also study how a four (4) diode bridge rectifier works, as this is a common multi-device
component. +,-,AC+,AC- (good, looks like you already have.)
---
From your latest post;
Interesting solution to the problem mondrasek (very good);
The 1:1 transformer at 50Hz should best have an iron core like the R60 core from
the SGS drive coil... Actually the bemf pulse (you need to at least read about
"Fourier transforms") Harmonics are probably far above the basic 50Hz cycle
repetition rate. Meaning a higher frequency core response of the transformer is
better to let the entire pulse through. More like the difference between 50-60Hz
and audio frequencies.
Another solution would be to put the diodes between the cap. and coil.
The circuit could then only tap into the bemf. But I'm not going to say
it is better than what you've already got. As it stands, the transformer
will effect both directions of current through the coil. This may or may not
solve your timing symmetry difficulties.
Another thing you try do is put the scope's second channel across the batteries
(be careful not to create any "ground loops" ie ground wire conflicts)
and make sure the right polarity pulses are happenning to each of the batteries.
The thing I am concerned about is; "race conditions" where the contacts might
interrupt the circuit path before the pulses get entirely through.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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@MS, great info as expected!
Fourier transforms!?!? AURGH!
I was a 3+ year EE major at the time when I switched to ME some 20+ years ago. I had made it through the required DiffEQ and Controls classes and had done enough calculus and Fourier transforms to decide I wanted out. I was tired of doing math all the time. I liked the theories behind how a magnetic field bends an electron beam to paint the picture on a CRT, but I didn't want to write or work the equations for it. Now I enjoy asking the EE's I work with when was the last time they did a Fourier transform. They always laugh. Last time was always back in college. It amazes me how little all that higher math we were required to take in college is used in the majority of "Engineering" jobs. But then again, I will always remember the one professor I had who looked lightly at math errors on exams. His point was that we were training to be engineers or "problem solvers". If the solutions we came up with required math beyond our skills we should hire a mathematician to work that part out.
My deepest respect to those like yourself who appear to have mastered multiple disciplines.
Anyways, after testing the different caps I found I was happiest with the 25V 33mF I have access to at work. I was attempting to get as near to a square wave as possible across the solenoid (not sure if this is what I should be doing or not, but what the hell). Too little capacitance and the decay when the contact opens is very steep. Too much and the leading edge begins to slope and round more at the top. Higher capacitance also drags the battery voltage down much faster.
I was concerned with using this polarized electrolytic cap in this way since it sees a reversing polarity pulse. I figured this would be another "unsymmetrical' item to worry about. So I took two and put them back to back with their negative terminals connected. I paralleled that with an identical pair wired the same way. Any thoughts?
Here are some scope shots. The single shows only the trace across the solenoid without any other loads in the circuit. The wave is not quite centered vertically but that is due to my not adjusting the scope prior to the picture. It's on 5 V/div, so you can see how it oscillates between ~+9V and -9V.
The second has the transformer in series and I have added the output from the second side after the rectifier. The probe for this one is set to 10X and the scope is on 10 V/div so you can see the great pulses of HV it generates. I'm not sure what more I can do with this until I get some Schottky diodes. Thanks for the link.
Do NiCds respond better or worse to the HV spikes than LAs?
What's the best core to get the harmonics and primary spikes through? I'm guessing it's best to just focus on the primaries?
So, if I am winding my own transformer, what characteristics should I be aiming for? My guess is low impedance/low resistance. Is there a minimum number of turns necessary for efficient transfer? There is a neat calculator for air coils on coilgun.info. Anything similar for cored coils on the net?
M.
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@All
Erratum;
1N914 (Do-7) = 1N3148 (DO-41) is silicon diode not Germanium !!
1N54 !n60 1N270 are usual Germanium diodes
PESE-SEMICONDUCTOR (since 1964)
Gustav Pese
True...I just checked - sorry, I was thinking of the 1N54 RF signal diode. The 1N914 is std silicon 1Vdc forward voltage signal diode MAX If = 200ma.
Thank you for the correction Gustav
:SMarkSCoffman
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I guess I'll be slowing down on this for a bit. I can't see any way around redesigning and making further extensive changes to the relay. Currently the relay still has it's original steel armature plate on the back of the pivoting relay contact arm. It is to that plate that I have my little neos attached to allow the air coil solenoid to force a push-pull oscillation as it switches between +9 and -9 V. Unfortunately there is probably attraction of the coil to the steel plate as well, and that never switches to repulsion. So that side of the switch will always see an additional attraction and I will not be able to achieve 50-50 switching. The plate has to go.
I'm torn between just taking the baby step of replacing the steel armature plate with a similar one of plastic or wood or going all out with a redesign that incorporates more improvements. Some things I was considering:
1) Make the attenuator plate rise up past the pivot for a considerable distance and attach a weight that can adjust up and down to set the frequency. Right now the "counter weight" I've been using that works best is still the alligator clip attached to the old spring tab. I had tried gluing a thin steel strip to replace the alligator clip and give me something to attach weights (neos) at different heights to set different frequencies, but it was too flexible and actually lagged the switch arm, causing bouncing.
2) Raise the pivot so I am not working on such a small scale.
3) Spread out the contacts so there is a longer gap in the switching so the traces can be better analyzed. I don't think the dead time in the switching hurts anything so why not slow the whole system down?
4) Maybe move the solenoid to the other side of the pivot to spread out the components further. There might be some benefit in changing the distance from the pivot and magnet/solenoid arrangement that is difficult to do in the tight confines of the current relay set up.
5) Maybe flip the relay so the contacts are up. Right now gravity pulls the switch arm away from the contacts, into the dead zone of the switching. Inverting will cause gravity to pull it to one side or the other. I believe one of these types of arrangement I can help it self regulate the 50-50 split by using gravity to assist if one set of batteries is creating a weaker magnetic field than the other. But I need to think that through some more. Maybe it is better the way it is now?
I'll also need to order the Schottky diodes. Don't have access to any old Computer PSs that I know of.
One other test I thought to do yesterday was to place a 200V 6.8mF cap across the high voltage side of the transformer/rectifier to see how high the spikes would charge it. It leveled out about 59.8 V. I also ran a small DC motor from the same set up. It ran slooooow.
M.
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The Schottkys arrived and I've built a new "Franken-relay". I replaced an original relay's steel attenuator plate with model plywood (1/16" x 2 laminates) and left it long enough so I wouldn't need an alligator clip on top to stabilize the oscillation. I also removed the steel back and top plate for the solenoid to eliminate other Lenz losses. I checked everything with a magnet and am 99% confident the relay is now non-magnetic except where I introduce the new permanent magnet to throw the switch plate from side to side as the solenoid oscillates from +9 to -9 V.
I was very supprised at how hard it was to tune all the mechanical variables in this new solenoid to even get it to run. I guess I got lucky with the first one. Now that all the unnecessary magnetic materials are removed I can see how much the conductors between the common input and the switch plate contacts act as a spring. I had to tweak the bends in those connections for about 15 min. before it would run reliably. I'm guessing this will be a big obstacle in getting a 50-50 switch cycle.
The Schottskys are a good improvement over the bridge rectifier from RadioShack. I tested both by using the high voltage output of the 1:1 transformer through them in bridge rectifier arrangements to charge a cap. The Schottskys took the cap to a higher voltage over all and ramped up much quicker than the RS unit. Thanks MS.
"Race conditions". That appears to be the latest hurdle. Can't feed back directly to the batteries because the spikes occur at the same time as the switch is opening and creates a short? Damn the speed of light! This may be a stupid question, but I'm guessing there is no lossless delay circuits for voltage? If not, then I'm stuck with charging an output source and not the input directly. May still be able to feed that output source back to the input, but with more complexity and therefore more losses.
Assistance requested.
M.
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"Race conditions". That appears to be the latest hurdle. Can't feed back directly to the batteries because the spikes occur at the same time as the switch is opening and creates a short? Damn the speed of light! This may be a stupid question, but I'm guessing there is no lossless delay circuits for voltage? If not, then I'm stuck with charging an output source and not the input directly. May still be able to feed that output source back to the input, but with more complexity and therefore more losses.
Assistance requested.
M.
@modrasek;
An engineer would generally separate a circuit into two parts. The logic part
where he creates the circuit's behavior and the power part where he uses
enough components to accomplish what he needs in terms of power processing
then he links the logic part of the circuit to the power part with buffer amplifiers
called drivers.
You are trying to combine the two and have the whole circuit implemented
from power components - this would be called "functional overloading". It
makes things more complex and tricky to analyse and difficult to modify
because of sneak paths, etc.
With the *above* I wanted to show how this would be done in the real world.
(a)With this in mind one way to do what you want is to use a
capacitor to bypass the b-emf pulse through it to the battery, the
capacitor will pass the pulses but block the dc. You can use a series
diode to select pulse polarity and parallel resistor to 'slowly' drain or reset
the capacitor to a base dc state. This is tricky to analyse and some
calculations would be necessary to select components - then scope probing
to make sure it operates the correct way.
(b)In reality you would like to treat the batteries symmetrically. You
could do this by having two coils, one half the circuit would fire into
the static part, then pass control to the other half where it would
perform the same function on the now static first part. With what we
referred to above, an engineer would use a logic flip-flop to guarantee
correct circuit operation, rather than having one coil fire the other
somehow. This way the batteries would be treated exactly
symmetrically with respect to time.
---
web link to latching relay circuit;
http://www.discovercircuits.com/circuit-solutions/latching.html
Finally; I found this circuit design on the Web using FET transistor logic
and a latching relay I wanted to show you. Latching relays are not all
that common of a component that use two coils to pull the contact "off"
or "on" then stays in that state forever until the next pulse comes along.
It shows that a 25ms pulse has enough energy to relatch the relay to the
correct state. Some relays use only 75mw so you can multiply the 25ms
duty cycle times 75mw and you get a decimal point followed a number of
zero's after it representing continuous, per second, power dissipation.
The illustrated circuit uses 3volt batteries and a capacitor as a one
stage voltage multiplier to get 6Vdc= 3volts from the battery plus 3volts
from the capacitor switching a 5volt latching relay. The 25ms input logic
signal will cause one 6volt pulse just long enough to latch the latching
relay into the new state.
The way this would be used in our case would be to issue a setup pulse
to alternate sides of the relay(s) maybe once per minute or so. then issue a
number of recharge pulses while keeping the latches in that same state.
Then hitting the latching relays to swap battery state.
What I would probably start with is 5 double voltage pulses into parallel
batteries then one with b-emf pulse then 5 more double voltage pulses.
Then a little idle time then repeat this for one minute and then hit the
latching relay to swap the battery states. If that doesn't create overunity
in the batteries, I don't know what will.
Mondrasek; Maybe you can combine some of these thoughts with your
own and have it satisfy your needs somewhat easier or with more certainty
then with the first asymmetric relay approach.
:S:MarkSCoffman
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@MSC
Functional overloading? That sounds awfully negative. In my line of business being able to accomplish multiple tasks with a single component or system is "design optimization" and considered a good thing! Maybe it is that type of thinking that got me playing with the relay as both the switch and load. But I agree that has complicated the design, construction and testing most likely.
I realized late on Saturday that I have two unused contacts in that relay that might be usefull for feeding voltage back to the batteries. One NO connects to the + of one battery directly and to two others, but with the solenoid in the way. And one NC that connects to the - of three batteries. I was beginning to play with that when I lost stable operation of the relay. As I mentioned earlier, the wires in the relay drag on it like a spring so it will only run if they are bent just right. That is the biggest lesson I think I learned from this second relay build, so I went after building the third generation to eliminate the wire drag.
Relay #3 has the supple conductors from the relay switch replaced with #24 magnet wire that can be bent to hold a shape. The four leads are exiting the top of the relay cube (top is removed) and are then bent to the sides, then down, and then back out to the sides, co-axial with the relay hinge pin. I'll leave the co-axial sections about an inch long before soldering them to the wires connecting to base connections. That way the only spring force the relay arm will see is the torsion on the four magnet wire leads in that area as the relay arm oscillates. I estimate that oscillation is only through one degree or less so the torsional spring effect should be near nothing. Relay #3 was just near complete when other duties called, and then Ike dumped our power for the rest of the evening, so I haven't been able to complete and test.
Thanks for the ideas on feeding back through caps. Could be the simplest thing to try.
Also love that new circuit! I had not considered latching the relays (or using latch relays), but I had considered building a double coil version of my existing set up. One asymmetrical concern I have now is that the push and pull forces induced by the solenoid on the neo magnet are probably not equal, since both poles of the neo are in the electromagnet field and are at different distances from it. My guess is that will result in one direction of force being higher than the other for equal but opposite solenoid charging currents, right? I had considered next to place a longer cylindrical magnet through a hole in the switch plate arm so that opposite poles were on opposite sides. These would both be repelled by separate solenoids that would fire alternately as the contacts on each side switched the voltages from +9V to -9V and back. Diode, solenoid, diode in series, paralleled with an identical diode, solenoid, diode with opposite polarities.
On a side note, I was curious about why Imhotep used a signal diode vs. power diode in his Bedini fan circuit for the collector "output". Maybe it was just because this was a component easily sourced through RadioShack. I thought I'd test my fan's ability to charge up a cap through the signal diode vs. my Schottkys. So I attached a Schottky to the collector as well, and then set the fan to charging a 250V 6.8mF cap from the signal diode first. It took it to ~220 V (no wonder it bites when you grab it). I then switch the output lead clip from the signal diode to the Schottky and blew my transistor. I hadn't thought about the fact that my little power diodes are only rated at 200V. So that was the end of my test and my second transistor. Luckily I had purchased two after I blew the first one and had one left to get the little battery charger functional again.
M.
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The third iteration of the relay is up and running very well. Wave form across the solenoid coil is very symmetric. I cannot see any asymmetry but the traces are difficult to analyze on the o-scope right now. The frequency of the switching is regulated by the length of the switch arm. It is working like a seesaw now, with one side of the pivot having the switch contacts and being of a length very similar to the original relay. The other side was left long (about 5 inches) and can be shortened to increase the frequency. With the current length it is switching closer to 20 Hz and so while the o-scope traces look very symmetric, they may be off by smaller time scales than are noticeable now.
I started the relay running at about 6 PM last night. It was still running as of 8 this morning when I shut it down. I just let it run to mechanically "burn in". The batteries were not fully charged when I started it and were deffinitely not charged equally. I just fast charged them for a short duration to get them up to ~9 V to check out the new relay. When it ran so well, I just let it run. I checked one battery at that time and it was at 9.13 V (still not sure why these HV spike "conditioned" NiCds charge and run above their expected 8.4V rating). It had dropped to 9.06 V later in the evening when I was shutting down the o-scope for the night. I also disconnected the scope probe since I had started to notice a loading effect due to the probes on my last build (I think). I didn't expect it to still be running in the morning!
I turned on the o-scope for a second just to see the wave form this morning while preparing for work. The trace was still symmetric, but was only reading about 1/2 way to +9 and -9 V. Also had a higher spike on the leading edge. I did a quick check of the o-scope settings to make sure I hadn't left it on a different V/div setting and don't think it was. I expected the batteries to have run down and think that is what I was seeing.
So then I disconnected all the batteries so I could put them on the charger and hopefully equalize and top them off while I'm at work today. But before I did I checked their voltages. They read 8.91, 8.66, 8.75, and 8.58. That was strange enough that I took a second to write it down.
So I appear to have a working 4-battery type current syphon that I can experiment with. Next I need to figure out what kind of experiments to do. Any suggestions?
M.
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I took the time to mount the relay to it's own board rather than in the middle of my work bench so it would be portable and able to be moved out of the way. I also mounted a DIN rail with terminals so I could wire it up better. The conductors are all approximately the same length from the batteries to the relay with the exception of the four jumpers involved with the switching from series to parallel and back. The batteries are all draining more equally now. Before I would always have one that didn't seem to drain at all, one fully down, and two in between after running to a stop.
I was wondering what to do about selecting a frequency for the relay, as that can be adjusted higher as I trim the upper portion of the switch arm. Currently it is running at about 28Hz. While reading about circuit resonance and some of "The Tesla Project" thread I came to the conclusion that my set up is a neat LC tank circuit, being excited by an oscillating +9 V, -9 V square wave. So I may be able to tune it to resonance or a harmonic by selecting the proper cap and adjusting the frequency of the mechanical switching.
So that leads me to needing to measure the inductance of my relay solenoid. I understand this can be done experimentally with a function generator, but I don't think I can justify the cost right now and don't have access to one I can borrow for more than a day at a time (if that). I'm interested in a cheap LCR meter and wanted some advice. Looking on the net I have these three inexpensive models in mind and hope someone can tell me if they are decent or not:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PHZ5T4?smid=A3IZHOEADOGAP0&tag=yahoo-ce-20&linkCode=asn
http://www.omnitronelectronics.net/phpstore/html/LCM1952-LCR-METER.html
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KAEQWS?smid=AMH4W1K8OCGMX&tag=yahoo-tools-mp-20&linkCode=asn
Thanks,
M.
-
....
So that leads me to needing to measure the inductance of my relay solenoid. I understand this can be done experimentally with a function generator, but I don't think I can justify the cost right now and don't have access to one I can borrow for more than a day at a time (if that). I'm interested in a cheap LCR meter and wanted some advice. Looking on the net I have these three inexpensive models in mind and hope someone can tell me if they are decent or not:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000PHZ5T4?smid=A3IZHOEADOGAP0&tag=yahoo-ce-20&linkCode=asn
http://www.omnitronelectronics.net/phpstore/html/LCM1952-LCR-METER.html
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000KAEQWS?smid=AMH4W1K8OCGMX&tag=yahoo-tools-mp-20&linkCode=asn
Thanks,
M.
Hi Mondrasek,
I just sent you a PM for you PM but I may have offered a poor choice on the LCR meter so may I correct myself here on suggesting this type out of your three choices: http://www.omnitronelectronics.net/phpstore/html/LCM1952-LCR-METER.html This has higher inductance range than the first I suggested and its other features also worth the 50 bucks.
Regards, Gyula
Notice when you wish to use a relay coil as an inductance to make a resonant circuit, such coils has many turns of thin wire hence the DC resistance is significant and appears as high loss resistance embedded right inside the resonant circuit. So do not expect a resonant LC circuit with highly selective properties from relay coils but with rather flat response at or near the resonant frequency. If this is not a drawback for an application of your choice than of course do not care but I thought worth mentioning this.
-
@Gyula,
Thanks for the input on the meter and info on solenoid resistance. I played around with the solenoid and RLC sims on coilgun.info to estimate the inductance while waiting for my meter to arrive. With that high of resistance the circuit would definitely be overdamped.
I also went for a different meter since Omnitron wanted ~$20 for shipping. I found another meter with similar specs that also had the other DMM functionality. With shipping it came in $5 cheaper. I need to return the Fluke I borrowed to work anyway.
So I'm not sure if tuning the solenoid control circuit to resonance will do much. The mechanical frequency needed for smooth operation might be more important. But maybe I can get both synced up. When I try to raise the frequency by shortening the top of the switch arm it becomes unstable and beats itself to death. I quess this is due to the switch frequencies relation to the natural mechanical frequency. It's tuned close to that natural mechanical frequency now at around 14Hz after adding more weight to the top of the switch arm (allegator clip again). It sounds close to the same frequency whether excited by the batteies or if I rattle it just by hand without the bateries hooked up.
I also realized that trying to raise the capacitance to get a square wave like form is proably counterproductive. Instead I want the contacts to make only long enough to generate a magnetic field strong enough to repel the switch arm to the other set of contacts. The cap is there to keep the magnetic field in place across the gap in the switch. The minimum capacitance to do so would be best. If the cap is down to zero volts by the time the opposite set of contacts is made (or before), that would waste the least amount of current. Actually it would be best if the cap could be removed all together, but I don't think that is possible with this set up. Though I can see it in my mind with a bigger set up. It becomes a magnetic pulse assisted pendulum.
I removed the thin wire from a spare solenoid and wrapped it with bifilar 34 gage just for some testing (while waiting on the LCR meter again). It rings out at 28.6 Ohms per coil. When in series with the existing circuit it has almost no noticable effect on the wave form (unlike the 1:1 phone transformer). It also outputs great bemf spikes that charge a cap to ~86 V. The 1:1 transformer would not go past 30-something V. Interesting thing is once I ran the numbers for this solenoid on coilgun.info it appears to have almost exactly the same magnetic strength as the original coil. Blind luck there! I wanted to test it as the switch coil since I am not convinced that the second set of coils cannot be used to extract the bemf as was mentioned ealier.
M.
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Hi!
Mondrasek
You did a very good job with the tesla switch!
Jesus
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Last Firday I was able to hook up my home-wound bifilar coil in place of the stock (sort of) solenoid coil. I CA'd another neo magnet to the upper portion of the switch contact arm and was able to clamp the new solenoid in place to act on it. Once I switched the working 250V 22uF cap over to a recently acquired photo-flash 270V 130 uF cap it took off and ran great. In fact I could remove the extra alligator clip weight at the top of the switch arm and it would clatter along at around 48Hz (an all time high new record). Checking the second coil revealed very small bemf spikes, probably due to the arcing on the contacts and therefore no bemf at all as MSCoffman had said. But I was not 100% confident in these results since the temporary set up had the new solenoid clamped to a steel bar. I wanted to rule out all the other magnetic effects and so set forth on building a not conductive set up again.
After several delays including replacing a broken power strip that came with the house (that caused me to get shocked when I plugged in metal bodied power tools) and a trip to the zoo (great fun for the baby and all), I was able to finish rebuilding the set up with the home-wound coil mounted to a solid, non-conductive test platform again.
Still no bemf on the secondary coil. MSCoffman wins again. Not that I really expected anything else, but it was one more simple test to take advantage of and gain the first hand experience.
The new coil ohms out at 28.6 now, but rises to about 29.2 as it heats up due to the high current draw. I placed the secondary coil in series to increase the resistance. I then placed a 25 ohm potentiometer in series to see those effect. Increasing the resistance (lowering the current) decreases the frequency. So does pushing the CG of the switch arm further away from the pivot point by adding weight (alligator clip or neos) higher up on the switch arm.
So I believe I've got a system that is tunable in two ways: electrically, and mechanically. I wonder if it is possible to tune them to the same frequency, but 90 degrees out of phase? I think it might be, because one thing I noticed: No matter how much extra resistance I added to the solenoid circuit it would always land on the the contacts that charges the solenoid and cap for the same relative percentage of the switching period. I thought I might be able to have it stay on the contact for a shorter amount of time by adjusting the electronics, but this seems to be regulated by the mechanical frequency through the inertia of the switch arm. So it may be possible to retard the break of the contacts (inductor and cap discharge start) to be 90 degrees out of phase with the make of the contacts (inductor and cap charge start) with regards to the electrical resonance frequency. Just random thoughts...
Questions for any and all:
1) Should I be trying to tune electrically for an 18 V pulse since the solenoid is receiving alternating +9 V to -9 V DV input?
2) Does breaking the circuit because of the break before make nature of the relay mean that tuning this circuit electrically is not possible?
3) Where the hell is my induction meter?
4) How is a "photo-flash" cap different from any other electrolytic cap of the same V an F ratings?
I'm also seeing another limitation in the mechanical build of my relay. My pivot has too much slop for these higher frequencies. The pin is just too loose in the pivot tube, making for a sloppy hinge. If I can find some .030" carbon fiber rod it could greatly improve the fit and hopefully improve self lubrication. I've got some .020 from the local hobby store from an old project so I am hopefull they have what I want locally.
M.
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Hi!
I cannot give you any counsel now because I still dont understand your arrangement. But I can tell that I did a replication of a circuit I found somewhere in this site maybe. And I am charging batteries with it. It is made with only 4 diodes and four batteries like the tesla switch, but simpler. If anyone wants me to post the circuit I will.
Jesus
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Jesus why ask permission why not post it ???
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Hi!
The circuit is very simple.
Jesus
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I had a total breakdown of the relay early last week. I was cutting down the switch contact arm to increase the switching frequency and dislodged the magnet. While trying to disassemble the set up to repair *without* completely breaking down the external solenoid stand I bent the switch contacts. It would still run but would never give a symmetric trace again. So I built #4.
I was very proud of #4. It was the first time I had been able to construct one of these modified relays without dropping and bending either the switch arm contacts and/or the base contacts. I also was able to incorporate the .030 carbon fiber switch pivot pin, though it is still too loose. I think I'll swage the aluminum tube down a bit on the next build.
So everything looked exceedingly great until I tried to fire it up. It ran, but the trace was just wrong. After ringing it all out I realized that switch 1 and 3 common were shorted. They were both making contact with the aluminum hinge tube! And once together, the "relay" is not able to be fully disassembled, so I tried to repair as best I could while assembled. Long story short: I destroyed and then removed contact #1, leaving only three working dual throw contacts. But I had also reread the Eike Mueller report on testing with Tesla switch with Bedini and realized figure T-6 was the design for the Tesla switch set up using only three dual throw contacts. I had wanted to test how this compared to the four switch design, but that is not possible with this relay iteration. But at least I could continue to use my current relay and rewired to the Mueller report set up, which is exceedingly more elegant (go figure).
The goal of this relay build was to eliminate any unnecessary mass down by the switch contacts, like the neo that was present from when I was using the internal solenoid. Hopefully this lighter switch arm will allow for running at higher frequencies if needed.
So I hooked up the 9V NiCds to the Mueller design and it ran great. In fact, I soon learned it would run WITHOUT the cap! It arcs across the contacts when I run it like this and made quite a bit of RF interference that was picked up by the baby monitor I had with me when I first got it running. Very exciting.
I picked up four small 6V SLA's this morning and have them installed in place of the NiCds now. Now it's time for some experiments. The magnet being push/pulled by the solenoid coil is now mounted to it's own adjustable plate so it can be moved up or down the switch arm. The solenoid can also be adjusted up and down and closer or further away from the magnet. I have other magnet sizes to play with as well. So I think I can adjust all the mechanical and electrical properties to run at different frequencies. Anything anyone would like tested?
Here are some pictures of the voltage traces across the solenoid. I am running now with a 200V 6.8uF cap just to suppress the arcing. That trace is pretty clear and at 2V/div. The other is a blurry shot of running with no cap to show the voltage spikes as the contacts make (bounce) and break. I tried 4 times and could not get it to focus better so gave up. It still gets the point across. The scope is set at 10V/div to show the spikes. If I set the probe to x10 the spikes can be seen hitting close to 300V.
Oh yeah, I finally got my DMM with LCR measuring capabilities. The first order did not go through I guess.
Thanks,
M.
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Relay build #5 took care of all the outstanding mechanical issues that I could think of. I swaged the aluminum pivot tube so it has less clearance on the carbon fiber pivot pin. I also used 34 gage magnet wire from the ends of the 24 gage coming off the switch plate common connections back to the connectors that plug into the base to eliminate the drag that was bugging me again. Even with this mod the wave form is not symmetric when scoped at lower frequencies (15~30 Hz). So I can only believe that the push and pull force of the solenoid on the perminant magnet is not equal, due likely to the two different poles of the PM being at different distances from the center of the solenoid while switching. Unless there is some other unsymmetrical aspect to this build now. The only way I can think to get around this would be to use two solenoid coils and two magnets so it would push and pull at the same time both ways, or limit it to just pushing or pulling on each side. Setting that up to be completely symmetric would likely be more than I could stand at this scale (to small).
I've trimmed the switch arm back over the day until she is running at about 100Hz. I cannot measure exactly since the trace on the o-scope is not stable unless I add a cap, and then it sounds like it changes frequency a bit. Not really sure.
Throughout the weekend all 4 batteries have slowly been dropping in voltage. Sometimes one goes up while the others go down. I have had it stable with no drop in voltage for over 2 hours when running at about 80Hz, but well withing measurement error I believe.
FYI, I have screwed the "relay" to it's base to minimize losses to vibration.
One interesting thing is I cannot measure some of the batteries unless I hook up the scope or a cap. The voltage will jump around +- several volts unless those are in the circuit. I connect the scope only to take voltage readings now since the scope must be loading the circuit.
M.
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Common rechargeable batteries are free energy devices, is not neccesary build a special battery, I get many kilowatts from battery banks for many years without recharge that and I want resume here my experience
In all electric circuit there is 2 main laws, energy conservation law ( Kirchoff voltage ), charge conservation ( Kirchoff current), this last law is bad in use, when we connect a battery to a resistive load there is a charge flow between the poles, that charge for that law don't loose but goto the opossite pole for get the equilibrium, negative and positive charges go in neutral condition, in any electric circuit the charge in the system
go in conservation, if we move the charges from the battery to the load and then from the load to the battery the energy flow will be for ever
Nikola Tesla at the ends of the 19 century was using common batteries of that epoque for power his remote control vehicles, he build vessels with DC motor
powered form a bank of 4 batteries, that vessels was designed for travel arround the world for go to any place powered only for that battery bank and never
that batteries go in discharge, Tesla known the charge principle of conservation and know how recycle that charges for get the permanent motion of current in the circuits
In a battery there is 2 currents , the electronic current flow out the battery and an ionic current flow inside the battery, that ionic current is composed of
more inertia than the electrons flow out the battery ,then when we open the circuit the electronic current go fast to zero, but the internal ionic current go slow
to zero and then if we open a circuit when a battery is in charge it remains in charge for a certain time
A battery is like a condenser but is not a condenser in the exact term, but when there is a current from a battery it discharge and when a current goto a battery
it charges, for get that charges flow between the battery and the load we must to have at least 3 batteries as show in the following
Case A
*********Rload*********
* *
* -----> I *
2 *
* *
* 3
* *
1 *
* *
* *
**********************
1,2,3 are the batteries, 1 and 2 in series, positive of 1 join to negative of 2 and positive of 3 join to positive of 2
When the system start 1 and 2 are fully charged for example 12V and 3 is discharged or with low voltage, for example 1 Volt, then there is a current flow across the resistive load
and the initial voltage in the load 24 V at maximun power, then 3 begins in charge and 1 and 2 begins in discharge but always in all time the total charge in the system is the same, charges
outgoing from 1 and 2 are received for 3, if that configuration is permanent the system get the equilibrium and the current go to zero but always the charge will be the same in the system
For sure there is a constant current flux the system never must go in equilibrium, then when 3 is being charged we change the configuration to the following
Case B
*********Rload*********
* *
* -----> I *
1 *
* *
* 2
* *
3 *
* *
* *
**********************
In this position 1 and 2 begins discharged at the same voltage and 3 with the few voltage got before cause now a low current for the load but 3 begins in charge because there is the same internal current
than in the case A in the internal of 3, 1 follow giving his charge, 2 begins in charge, the total charge follow constant and then we go to case C
Case C
*********Rload*********
* *
* -----> I *
3 *
* *
* 1
* *
2 *
* *
* *
**********************
Here 1 restore his charge from 2 and 3, 2 remains in charge for the intertial internal currents
and so in the next conmutation we have a new cycle in the case A but charge is the same, if the internal intertial currents don't was considerated 3 will be with the same charge and voltage but if we design the conmutation
frequency is the adecuated 3 finish with more charge and there is more charge in the system but with or without taht charge excess the system remains in constant discharge-charge autopowered for ever
My firsts tests was with little Ni-Cd batteries of 9 V and bulbs and the system never stop for months
With this 3 batteries the load voltage may be inadecuated for a specific load 24 V in load for 12 V batteries
For get the maximun performance Tesla then use 4 batteries in the following setup
Case A
*********Rload*************
* * *
* -----> I * *
2 * *
* * *
* 3 4
* * *
1 * *
* * *
* * *
**************************
1 and 2 in series , 3 and 4 in paralell, 1,3,4 have the same negative pole, 3 and 4 are in serie with diodes for don't existence of currents between them, at start all batteries are full charged and so, 1 and 2 go in discharge passing his charge to 3 and 4
and if all the batteries are the same and of 12 V there is 12 V in the load ai maximun current I and power, then after a certain time the setup changes to the case B
Case A
**********Rload********
* * *
* * *
* * I <----- *
* * 3
1 2 *
* * *
* * 4
* * *
* * *
**********************
Now changes, 1 and 2 in paralell with his diodes and 3 and 4 in series, 3 and 4 return the charges to 1 and 2 and I invert his direction to maximal power and so the cycle repeats and the system remains autopowered for ever
Depending of battery quality the system for many kilowatts remains autopowered for years not only for the charge conservation law, beside for the inertial ionic current effect appears a excess of charge
I test and use this devices with resistive load and DC motors and DC / AC converters
Control circuits are oscillators and power actuators are diodes and transistors
Of course batteries are not designed for eternal life but with this methods you never need recharge in all his useful life
In consequence any common battery is a free energy device
Thanks
YOU WICKED MAN FROM CHILI:
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WARNING EVERYONE: THIS MAN IS A THIEF, HE IS LOOKING FOR VICTIMS. IF YOU SEND HIM EMAIL, HE LATER WILL ASK YOU THAT HE CAN BUILD F " FREE ENERGY DEVICES, ALL IS B.S. DON'T FALL FOR IT. HE IS CON, AND THIEF. HE SHOULD BE IN JAIL FOR HIS DEEDS.
I HAVE ALL THE EMAILS THAT HE SEND ME FROM CHILI IF ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO SEE IT.
JUAN, YOU WICKED MAN, YOU WILL PAY THE PRICE OF YOUR ILL DEEDS. I AM AFTER YOU TO EXPOSE YOU WHERE YOU GO ON WWW.
IF EVER MEET YOU IN PERSON, YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO WALK AGAIN !!!
I HAVE CONTACT CHILI POLICE DEPARTMENT AND FILED CHARGES AGAINST YOU!!!
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ANY TRYING , to construct an working concept since 2006 (i follow
this) ist damned to unworking. Evebn to do this with relay,
(any diode and transistor produce additionally losses with voltage drops).
So you must only first to remember (see the loading instruction on
each Panasonic dry-lead battery). (o othe you will see instruchtions)
It must be loaded with near 20 % higher voltages over the nominal voltage
(14,4 /12,0)
It must be load with near 20% more corrent as the nominal A/h value
so an 7A/h wit 0,7Amp for 12 hours (nit 10 !)
The battery is unload if the undervoltage is 10% (or 20?) under nominal
voltage of the battery.
Even in ANY WAY it have in ANY WAY more losses in the battery to load an unload,
so you have not any chance to make from losses an gain.
Open your eyes and your mind. It is easy to accept this
Gustav Pese
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For more info on Tesla2006 see this link here at OU.com:
http://overunity.com/index.php/?topic=9085 (http://overunity.com/index.php/?topic=9085)