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Author Topic: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)  (Read 9929 times)

Offline guest1289

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2016, 02:46:28 AM »
(  I was surprised, when I discovered some days ago,   the first  electrostatic-motor  was by franklin,  and well before the first  electric-motor.  To me,  the  electrostatic-motor  seems more advanced and complex than  faraday's-electric-motor .
 
    But, I soon forgot about that,  when also some days ago,  I discovered  electronic-calculators from 1965,  that had little crt( tv ) screens,  I would never believe that unless I saw them sold on ebay, and shown on youtube .  If they could manage functioning  video-ram for those tv-calculators,  why couldn't they use it to make full-fledged computers, as memory, and buffers, etc  )
    Some months ago I also discovered electronic-calculators, from the mid-60's, that used accoustic-modems  to communicate over phone lines ( and people that had the ensure the correct baud-rates over the phone-lines for them, they already had the term  baud-rates ),  the calculators communicated   with fully programmable servers.

   If that was just what was available to the general-public, I wonder if UFO incidents from those times were more than fiction, I have always thought UFO's were of earth-origin.   )   

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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #16 on: March 03, 2016, 08:38:07 PM »
 :)


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #17 on: March 03, 2016, 09:58:05 PM »
My idea, to generate electricity with a precharged variable capacitor (by help of an electrophorus or an equivalent), was allready published in the attached patent in 1962 (see the attached patent US3175104 which some one made me aware of).

As is very often the case, most ideas are not new.

The Inventor (a certain C.D. CURTIS) was a bit liberal with diodes and additional capacitors, but my "basic doubler" can be constructed (by removing superfluous components) from the diagram in the patent.

The inventor did not see (or did not bother to disclose) in 1962 that a precharged variable capacitor is in the most basic form (my "basic circuit") an alternating curent generator. But I am sure, over time and with much effort one can find this in the technical literatur of the last 200 years.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline telecom

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2016, 05:53:31 AM »
This is the most interesting concept, and it does appear to me as an over unity device
because your lifting against the gravity is neutralized by dropping under the gravity,
or you can make it gravity neutral by turning sideways.
Also, the electrostatic resistance when lifting up is compensated by the attraction,
when the plate goes down.
While the working cycle is fully neutral (less losses), you are still able to
light the tube, and this light comes from nowhere!


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2016, 10:35:29 AM »
This is the most interesting concept, and it does appear to me as an over unity device
because your lifting against the gravity is neutralized by dropping under the gravity,
or you can make it gravity neutral by turning sideways.
Also, the electrostatic resistance when lifting up is compensated by the attraction,
when the plate goes down.
While the working cycle is fully neutral (less losses), you are still able to
light the tube, and this light comes from nowhere!

I gave the answer in one of my posts above, but I repeat it here:

-----------------------------------

An now the "charge separation" principle has to be understood, because it is which makes the current flow out of the low Voltage "pre-charge" (in my contraption it is about 3 Volt) by becoming a high Voltage (several thousand Volts) when lifting the top plate.

https://www.boundless.com/physics/textbooks/boundless-physics-textbook/electric-charge-and-field-17/overview-133/charge-separation-476-5639/

The energy is put in by lifting the top plate against the attraction force between the negatively charged top plate and the positively charged acrylic plate surface. (One also has to lift the top plate against gravity because it has a weight, but this does not create electricity. Floating in space one would only feel the electrostatic attraction between the top plate and the acrylic plate.)

------------------------------------

So, the weight of the top plate is a fact of the design of the electrophorus, but one could design it sideways or one could do it in outer space where no gravity can be felt.

The force one acts against to generate electricity (to raise the tension or Voltage) is the attraction between the top plate and the acrylic plate or the ground plate. In every charged capacitor the two metal plates (or metal foils) are attracted to each other, because of the opposite charge.

Two surfaces attract each other if one is charged positively and the other negatively (and this is not gravity, but the elctric field). Two surfaces push each other apart if they have the same charge. And one can generate electricity if one acts aginst this attraction force or repellent force.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_charge
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_field
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koQxSc7C5HQ (charge Separation)

If one lifts the top plate one can feel the "suction" specially at the beginning because the attraction force is strongest if the two plates are close together.

The electric field, the forces between charged objects and charge separation are concepts which most laymen do not know.

------------------------------
When the top plate is lifted the electric charge is consumed by the lamp or by the electrostatic motor, so there is less charge in the top plate, symmetry is lost. The mechanical force put in to separate the plates is consumed as electricity in the lamp or the electrostatic motor.
------------------------------

I always wonder why people suspect OU in concepts which are known for more than 100 years. Scientists are not dumb and would have seen the OU long ago. Even if some bad people would try to hide the truth, it would be detected pretty soon over and over again. So, if there is OU it is not in effects or concepts known for many years.

The total electric charge of an isolated system remains constant regardless of changes within the system itself (conservation of electric charge).

Greetings, Conrad
« Last Edit: March 04, 2016, 05:46:50 PM by conradelektro »

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2016, 10:35:29 AM »
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Offline guest1289

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2016, 07:32:18 PM »
I would draw a diagram of the idea I posted earlier,  of the Radial-Electrophorus,  which works on a wheel,  but I won't be able to.
    Obviously the idea is simply using a  partial-spiral  set on the rim of a wheel,  or, set like a stator near the wheel,  and it would be either the bottom,  or top of the  traditional-Electrophorus.
     The other component,  set on the wheel,   or,   set like a stator near the wheel,  would be either the bottom,  or top of the  traditional-Electrophorus.
    HOWEVER - It would strongly rely on the width of the wheel( not the diameter of the wheel ), because the wider the wheel,  the more charge it could hold.

   But to know if this idea would have any potential,  I would need to know if  an Electrophorus  could function if it was shaped like  2 very long wooden-planks , parallel to each other,  one plank being the bottom of the  traditional-Electrophorus,  and the other plank being the  top,   
and,   obviously if there's any chance it could function without the the 2 planks actually touching  each other,  instead,  just by using a very-very narrow space gap,   at the point in the cycle where they are supposed to touch each other.
(  And,   doesn't the  Electrophorus lose it's charge over  time ,   if so,  then maybe a  re-charging component would have to be built into the wheel                                        )

   ( The  Electrophorus  seems to be an  electrical-current-pump,  like a water pump in a loop,  since it doesn't actually generate any electrical-charge.   I wonder if it is the only electrical-current-pump,  or are devices like  wimhurst machines and similar devices also  electrical-current-pumps  )

   Now I can't actually remember specifically what a  Radial-Electrophorus  could be useful for,  maybe a replacement for one of the devices that already used an Electrophorus

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2016, 08:21:28 PM »
I would draw a diagram of the idea I posted earlier,  of the Radial-Electrophorus,  which works on a wheel,  but I won't be able to.
    Obviously the idea is simply using a  partial-spiral  set on the rim of a wheel,  or, set like a stator near the wheel,  and it would be either the bottom,  or top of the  traditional-Electrophorus.
..........

@guest1289:

All electrostatic generators (besides the ones which use the triboelectric effect which are called friction machines) are a variation of the electrophorus. The up and down movement of the top plate was turned into plates that move past each other at high speed.

It is always the charge separation principle.

One could take the top plate and move it at a small distance over the acrylic plate, e.g. from left to right. First it is on the left side of the acrylic plate, then it starts to cover the acrylic plate till it is exactly over the acrylic plate, and then it uncovers the acrylic plate till it is completely at the right side of the acrylic plate. And doing this is already very close to a Whimshorst machine.

So, there are many designs one could come up with. And people came up with many designs in the 19th century.

In one way you are right, the electrophorus has some similarity with a pump. But electricity can not be pumped, so it is just a faulty mental image. A metaphor hardly ever works.


What I want to do:

- explore the alternating current nature of the electrophorus a bit deeper

- explore the electret a bit deeper; at the moment I am using an acrylic plate, but I want an electret that can be charged up better; I would not mind if the electret looses its charge after a few days

- explore the use of diodes and transistors in order to leed out the charge in a better way and to step it down to a useful Voltage of e.g. 3 Volt or 12 Volt

And only then I want to think about a design other than the electrophorus, like in the direction of a Whimshurst machine (plates turning fast).

For what I want to do next, a simple crank mechanism (driven with an electric motor) is good enough. I just need a uniform (not even fast) up and down movement of the top plate to do some further research.

At the monent I am studying basic principle questions, not the design of a useful generator. I have to admit, that some basic concepts (in connection with electrostaic generators) are still not clear enough in my mind. That has to be rectified first.

It is a hobby, a learning curve, and not a business venture. I do not have finacial interests any more because I can not take anything with me when I die. And being old makes death a reality.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2016, 08:21:28 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2016, 08:51:32 PM »
A 50-50 mixture of rosin (like is used for violin bows or solder flux) and carnauba wax, melted together and cast into a mold, allowed to cool while under the influence of an electric field (as between plates that are charged to some kV of voltage) , will make an excellent electret for your experiments.


TK's modified Moore's Dirod and TK-Enhanced Franklin ES motor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqf3bUL4YqE

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2016, 10:08:34 PM »
@TinselKoala

I got Moore's book about the Dirod but never managed to build one.

In an old book I found the following mixturen for a cake:

33% rosin
33% carnauba wax
33% bee wax

I got a 30 KV power supply and will try the charging while the cake cools down.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline telecom

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2016, 02:43:40 AM »
I gave the answer in one of my posts above, but I repeat it here:

-----------------------------------

An now the "charge separation" principle has to be understood, because it is which makes the current flow out of the low Voltage "pre-charge" (in my contraption it is about 3 Volt) by becoming a high Voltage (several thousand Volts) when lifting the top plate.

Hi, you already getting thousands of volts, not 3 V, right in the beginning, see this video:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MovlfZK7aO4





The energy is put in by lifting the top plate against the attraction force between the negatively charged top plate and the positively charged acrylic plate surface.

No its already there from the beginning
------------------------------------


Greetings, Conrad


Putting aside  rites about positive/negative, its operation mostly related to the Casimir effect
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casimir_effect

Regards

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2016, 02:43:40 AM »
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Offline Kator01

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2016, 03:07:07 AM »
Conrad,

the reason that 3M-Air-Filter-Material loose charge is because of the accumulation of the positive particles during the air-filter-process.

Since you do not use this material as an airfilter I do not think it will loose its charge.

So you might ask 3M techicians about this.

Regards

Kator01

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2016, 07:34:08 AM »
@Kator01: I have to get this 3M filter material, very interesting.

@telecom: your arguments are way over my head, I do not know enough to reply.

I am not at home for a week and writing on a tablett is awkward.

Till then, and thank you for your interest,

Conrad


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2016, 11:04:28 AM »
I was thinking along the lines of off-setting the gravitational force for the purpose of experimenting with the electric.

Such as the use of springs

or Magnets

the math does not work out the same between the two.
I do not wish to speculate too much on this, just as to say that they are not the same.
But either can be used to offset the effects of gravity to some degree.

Offline Kator01

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2016, 04:33:40 PM »
Conrad,

there is a second thought I have and therefore a word of caution : 

I remember that I had seen years ago a detailed description by 3M of how this filter is build. It consist of fine flat filaments
with opposing charge on each side. These filament are bulk-interwoven so when the air ist flowing in and through this filament-jungle the posivive charged dust-particle are collected within this filter.

That means that you dont have the whole filter-piece charged opposite on both areas which actually is what you need.

You can see the inner filament-structure at page 2  of this document here ( encircled pic at the bottom left )

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/843394O/datasheets-purification-luftfiltration.pdf

I would write them a mail to find out if there is a product or a sample which has opposing charge on the big area outside.  or the can provide you with a sample of the small flat filaments so you can build a bigger electret-surface yourself.

Wish you success.

Edit: I found the old document in the internet-archive:

The old website dated back to 2009
http://web.archive.org/web/20090826191446/http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/wps/portal/3M/de_DE/eamd/home/produktinfo/produkte/luftfiltration/elektret/

You can even download this old document from the archive:
http://web.archive.org/web/20160305154342/http://solutions.3mdeutschland.de/3MContentRetrievalAPI/BlobServlet?locale=de_DE&lmd=1125572412000&assetId=1114272438497&assetType=MMM_Image&blobAttribute=ImageFile

May be this here is of interest:
http://www.nuenergy.org/radiant-energy-diatribe/

Regards

Kator01



Offline conradelektro

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Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2016, 06:31:54 PM »
I was thinking along the lines of off-setting the gravitational force for the purpose of experimenting with the electric.

Such as the use of springs

or Magnets

the math does not work out the same between the two.
I do not wish to speculate too much on this, just as to say that they are not the same.
But either can be used to offset the effects of gravity to some degree.

Good idea! I believe in experiments, Theories come after successful experiments.

Put two cylindrical magnets in a vertical tube with North poles facing each other.The top magnet should hoover above the lower one. But the top magnet is pressed closer to the lower one by gravity.

I think that nothing is gained.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Modified Electrophorus (precharged variable capacitor)
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2016, 06:31:54 PM »

 

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