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Author Topic: ROC  (Read 5846 times)

Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2017, 09:41:41 PM »
Working through the sim looking for errors or extraneous input by the sim I found something interesting.  I was looking into the wobble, or bump, or whatever you wish to call it when I made a small change, with this change the sim would not settle down at the end of the cycle, so I ran just that section for a while and this is what I got.


The sim going from the start position down and into this condition was almost a complete recovery of gravitational potential,, it was short by about 1J when the drop in height was at its maximum change.


This data dump for 101 seconds of run showing 34J free is interesting.  The dump is only of the damper that is attempting to stop the oscillations from continuing between the springs, levers and weights.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: ROC
« Reply #30 on: December 15, 2017, 09:41:41 PM »

Online sm0ky2

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Re: ROC
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2017, 04:40:29 AM »
If you take away friction, both scenarios privide the same kinetic energy at the bottom.


Say the spiral is 1m high and its track is 10°.
Then the length of the track is approx 5.7587704m.
The acceleration of the ball at this angle is sin(10)×9.81ms^2=1.7035ms^2.
The final velocity is 9.81ms.
This result is valid if the ball does not roll, but slides along the frictionless track. If it rolls, the spinning mass gains rotational momentun, and the velocity will be less than 9.81ms at the bottom.


If you drop the ball from 1m hight, its kinetic energy is the same as the ball sliding or rolling along the spiral track.


Vidar


Look, I’ve been here for a long time, and i’ve Seen this conversation
Get way out into left field too many times.
So rather than discussing back and forth with no way to agree
Let’s take a look at the real life situation
And see what happens.
We can talk about ‘why’ later


https://youtu.be/a2hzipegb3c

Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2017, 12:31:35 AM »
If it is acceptable to have a sim use an elastic collision to reverse the direction of a mass in motion without having it calculate the instantaneous forces.


I redesigned the sim a little bit to only use an elastic collision to reverse the direction of a mass in motion and then I added an input to supply an increase in system force, then I needed to use an inelastic rope to stop from exceeding the run distances.  I could of spent a while trying to figure out the exact input distance I needed or use the rope,, I used the rope :)


This is the data dump for both dampers and the actuator.  It shows a very nice gain, but this is only a sim.


This is a Libra office file,, for some reason when I save as an xls file it makes it many times larger and so I can not post it.

Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2017, 04:19:59 PM »
Here is a screen-shot of just the top of the spreadsheet,,, much smaller file :)


In this I was getting ready to make some changes to the sim and try and run with 2 systems working with the same wheel and got sidetracked with this small change.
I off loaded the initial impact onto another hard stop just before firing off my input actuator allowing my input actuator to not need to also stop the mass and reverse it.
I also noticed that the sim ran smoother as far as other meters I have on some of the parts and this seems to of made the sim more consistent.


I can change my input force and energy by changing the actuator and when I increase the input force and energy the output also goes up, when I decrease the input the output goes down.  These changes seem to follow the input force applied, so f=ma for a fixed mass then more force would mean more acceleration, less would mean less.


A thing that is strange is that if I increase the calculations per second of the sim the applied input force the sim shows and reports goes up, as well as the output goes up, the sim is designed around f=ma so it would make sense that the accelerations the sim shows are directly related to the force the sim calculates.  Trusting that the sim is doing the math it does appear to follow with acceleration of mass to supplied force, but this strange part does give me pause on the results.

Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2017, 05:50:03 PM »
This is why I am not sure about the sim numbers.
I set the time interval down lower as can be seen by the A column and the H column, you can also see that there is the same number of steps and the same change in distances and stuff but that there is much more input for the left side numbers, as can be seen in cell F1 compared to M1.  One set is for 0.0023 seconds and the other for 0.0115 seconds.


The change in output velocities went along with these changes in input force and therefore energy, but this change is unsettling.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: ROC
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2017, 05:50:03 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2017, 08:29:56 PM »
It appears that the program chooses 5 frames to make the change in the actuator, it also calculates the force needed to stop the actuator,, interesting.


So the shorter the time between calculations the faster the actuator is moved, hence a higher input force needed and then that translates to more passed through the system which then speeds up the whole system.


I tried it with both a longer distance as well as a larger mass on the end of the actuator.

Online sm0ky2

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Re: ROC
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2017, 08:45:10 PM »
You can put a car on a hill, and let it roll.
Calculate the momentum based on your speed.
Put larger tires on the same car and repeat.


At what diameter tire can the car then roll up an equal height hill
as the input hill?




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: ROC
« Reply #36 on: December 20, 2017, 08:45:10 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Cherryman

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Re: ROC
« Reply #37 on: December 20, 2017, 08:51:40 PM »
@Smoky


I simulated something like that a few years ago:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8oAN5cKHu8

Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2017, 07:12:38 PM »
With the sim setup one way it is showing an approx. 10% gain and when I manually calculate the input needs they are very very close to what the sim provides.
I am now taking the input section for the sim and changing it towards a more normal input condition, meaning the input is now setup as an almost direct force to distance usage to accelerate the 1kg mass.


I am working on this to get all the timing just right so that I can maximize the input to output, right now the sim is showing a small loss in this new input configuration.


I have a small target velocity window I am trying to stay within, that is about -9 to -9.25 m/s and have approx 1.75 to 2 m/s entrance velocity prior to the input and take about 0.0027s for the reversal and input.

Online sm0ky2

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Re: ROC
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2017, 07:52:06 PM »
There is, of course, a limit to what we can ‘tamper with’.
Archimedes does a good job at explaining the mathematics,
However, it’s all been transcribed to English from Greekish
and the logic is based on geometry rather than the trigonometrical
approach most of us are used to.


Took me several times going through his works, and still most of the times
I learn something entirely new we forgot about as a society.


Anyways, two things which are important:


Slope and diameter.


We look for the optimal condition when
Momentum + Rotational Momentum/ time of collision  > (mass x 9.8m/s x height)




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: ROC
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2017, 07:52:06 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2017, 04:50:10 PM »
I took what I think I was seeing and things I already know about and made another sim, trying to "use" what I think I might know.  Well things are interesting with this new one.


I started making the sim, I had a plan but as I do while building the sim I also tested certain parts as I was making them, the sim gets picky about how some things work together.  Well the version I have running right now and have had it running for some time just keeps on running, that is I am using a constant force actuator that is being reset by the system as a result of a motion from the system, then it pulls back on the arm it is attached to and other motions happen which lead to the actuator being stretched back out again.  All this is setup on a wheel that will rotate CW for a about 1\2 turn and then go CCW for about 1\2 turn,, I use the word about because the system takes many of these turns before it looks like a pattern, so a few short rotations a little more this way than that and then a large rotation then more short ones, but it keeps on moving.


I also have a damper set to the wheel to slow it down, the wheel is actually one of the moving pivot points I ended up with.


ETA:  I also should of said that the system works the same without the damper,, well what I have watched of it anyway.

Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2017, 06:32:16 PM »
I assumed that the output energy from the damper was most likely due to the start conditions,, and then got bored waiting for the sim to dissipate all of that possible energy so I stopped the sim around mid oscillation and set all velocities to zero,, repeated as many times as needed to bring the system to a halt.


At this point I added in 10N of force for 0.002m of distance, well I tried to add it for more distance but the system returned the input back to where it started from and the oscillations began again.


I also added another damper between another set of levers that are moving,, trying to damp the oscillations so that things will settle down to a zero state quicker.

Offline webby1

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Re: ROC
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2018, 12:00:57 AM »
it is some times mesmerizing to watch a sim do this kind of thing all by itself.


I have no "control" items on the setup this came from,, only some levers and gravity, so no springs, dampers or actuators.
I have a control weight that is acting like a pendulum on one of the main interactive parts, it spends most of the time swinging back and forth but as the speed picks up past a certain level it gets thrown over the top, if you will, and starts to go back and forth on the other side of the single main pivot.


I have 4 sets of 3 levers, the wheel and 1 control lever,, the control lever is the part that is acting like a pendulum.


I reduced the mass on the end of the control lever shortly after starting the sim,, you can see the change to erratic behavior.

 

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