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Author Topic: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?  (Read 40947 times)

Offline Nink

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #30 on: November 30, 2015, 06:24:58 PM »
MileHigh I am guessing you are basically saying in a round about way,  show me the independent test data. Maybe not as stringent as UL/CSA certification etc as it still in prototype but something from a recognized independent testing organization.

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Offline PIH123

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #31 on: November 30, 2015, 07:19:09 PM »
MileHigh I am guessing you are basically saying in a round about way,  show me the independent test data. Maybe not as stringent as UL/CSA certification etc as it still in prototype but something from a recognized independent testing organization.

I believe he is saying that the test data is available right there in the video clip, but is misrepresented.



If I am right, looking at the graph shown from 17:36 onwards (I drew a more accurate version on my desktop) we can extrapolate that his EESd will be out of juice at about 290 seconds. RMS wanted a straight line graph, so that is what I used.


So wouldn't we have to apply the same criteria (out of juice at about 290 seconds) to the LiIon battery also.
1150 mAh / 290 * 60 * 60 / 26 (cells)
So the effect of each cell would be 549 mAh per cell that fully discharges in 290 seconds.

And at 0.455g per cell that would be 1206 Ah/Kg.

So he has misrepresented the competition by a factor of 12.
It would also COMPLETELY turn  claim around.

In conclusion, the competition Knocks the socks off his device. (his was 697 Ah/Kg)



Edited :

I am not liking the sound of that.
How can one out of 26 cell contain half the total capacity.

Please ignore the above calculation.
I will leave it there just to show what an Electronics novice comes up with when he is not a subject matter expert.

Sorry.
Pete


Offline Nink

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #32 on: November 30, 2015, 08:54:23 PM »
OK I hear what you are saying Pete.  His cell was burnt out in 290 seconds where the Li Ion cell will last 1 hour at 44mA.  At 5min 13 seconds the cell drops below 44mA so subtract the 3 minute charging time it really hit 44mA/h in just 2min and 13 seconds or 1/27th of an hour.   His EESD does drop fairly consistently example 4min 7 seconds it is at 94mA.    So lets assume straight line and for the 2m 13s it was running an average of 111mAh. 

I guess the basic assumption he is making is if we had charged it for 30 min and not 3  it would start at 1780mA not 178mA.   I am not sure this is the case. 
So do we need ~ 10 * the number of Graphene cells to Li Ion cells?

Edit:

That is if we are just looking at mAh but we really need to take into account volts as well.  We start at 2.7V but quickly drop to 1.5V and by 5:13 seconds we are at .5V  Now I am not sure what he said about the Li Ion Battery. I think he said it is a 1.5V 1150mAh battery at video time stamp 2m 35s and I assume they are all wired in parallel as he divided by 26 cells when he calculated amps / cell so each cell would be 1.5V. 

I guess we need to plot this all out in a spread sheet .....
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 11:53:48 PM by Nink »

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2015, 12:06:16 AM »
Well thank you for trying to figure out the issue but nobody got it.

The problem with the clip is that RMS fails to calculate the equivalent ampere-hours in his test cell.  Ampere-hours is a nomenclature that is used to make comparisons between batteries of the same voltage.  Ampere-hours is a shorthand way of expressing the energy in a battery where you ignore the battery output voltage because it is implicit and understood to be the same.   It can be used when stating the battery energy capacity or when comparing the battery energy capacity between two batteries with the same output voltage.

So, suppose that you are comparing two batteries where one battery outputs 10 volts and the other battery outputs 5 volts and you are going to stick to using the term ampere-hours.  What do you have to do?

The answer is that you have to double the ampere-hours of the 5-volt battery to represent the equivalent amount of energy.

100 ampere-hours @10V = 200 ampere-hours @5V

The lithium-ion cell phone battery has a nominal output voltage of 3.8 volts.

When he starts the test his cell is outputting about 1.63 volts and when he finishes his test his cell is outputting about 0.36 volts.

When he starts his test his equivalent ampere-hour measurement is exaggerated by (3.8/1.63) = 230%
When he ends his test his equivalent ampere-hour measurement is exaggerated by (3.8/0.36) = 1055%

This is simply unacceptable for a man in his position.  He has made other glaring errors that I already mentioned.  So he is either ignorant or he knows what he is doing but he has other motivations.  That is an unknown and people can decide for themselves.

The clip is wrong wrong wrong and his data is pure junk and his smug conclusion at the end of his clip is pure junk.  It's a farce.

If I really cared about his project, which I don't, I would be extremely upset.

MileHigh


Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2015, 12:16:51 AM »
Edit:

That is if we are just looking at mAh but we really need to take into account volts as well.  We start at 2.7V but quickly drop to 1.5V and by 5:13 seconds we are at .5V  Now I am not sure what he said about the Li Ion Battery. I think he said it is a 1.5V 1150mAh battery at video time stamp 2m 35s and I assume they are all wired in parallel as he divided by 26 cells when he calculated amps / cell so each cell would be 1.5V. 

I guess we need to plot this all out in a spread sheet .....

Yes Nink, you are definitely on the right track here.  I believe that a lithium-ion battery has a nearly constant output voltage over its discharge cycle.  Ironically RMS even mentions this in his clip.  All that he really had to do was take voltage and current measurements say every 10 seconds over the 240 seconds of the test to get a handle on the energy capacity of his cell.  He could then convert it into equivalent ampere-hours @3.8V to make a fair comparison with the lithium-ion battery. 

But he didn't, and it's such a glaring and godawful mistake that my jaw dropped when I watched the clip.  And this is a guy that works in a "high capacity" technical position in a capacitor and battery company.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #34 on: December 01, 2015, 12:16:51 AM »
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Offline Nink

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2015, 02:13:23 AM »
MileHigh   
His average over time charted were .76V and .72mA  and Li Ion I googled appears to be 3.6V avg per cell and I used his 44mA calc so  EESD 73 versus Li Ion 158

What stands out for me is the assumption you can charge this linearly to a higher V / mA per cell than he did.  I will be honest 2.6V is the most I ever got from my cells and RMS cell dropped to 1.69V as soon as he put a load on it. 

I think PIH123 (Pete) also nailed it.  This test was for only 4 minutes.  We should really be testing for 1 hour and we can't just extrapolate this out. It appears EESD will need a lot more cells to produce same mAh.

I put the data here if people want to graph or check
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fh_XHSwy2w3UJ6WegG9vwrQbibTzgAjStSeYzTtlf5k/edit?usp=sharing

Added A graph

Offline PIH123

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2015, 06:12:48 AM »
I think PIH123 (Pete) also nailed it.

I might have been accidentally close, but in all honesty, the dog ate my homework.  :-[

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #36 on: December 01, 2015, 06:12:48 AM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #37 on: December 01, 2015, 10:54:49 PM »



   Looks as if another one bites the dust!!!!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2015, 04:26:20 AM »
And yet another one bites the dust!

Offline Jimboot

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2015, 05:08:15 AM »
Build something better MH. Oh that's right you don't build, you tear down. I can't comment on your calculations, what I would say is that I'd trust a man who gives freely and generously of his time rather than one who seemingly spend all his time criticising others work and does none himself.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2015, 05:08:15 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2015, 05:19:57 AM »
Build something better MH. Oh that's right you don't build, you tear down. I can't comment on your calculations, what I would say is that I'd trust a man who gives freely and generously of his time rather than one who seemingly spend all his time criticising others work and does none himself.

Bullshit.  If you can't understand the concept of ampere-hours and how they implicitly are tied into an associated voltage then you may as well pack it all in right now.  If you can't understand how to measure how much energy a battery can output into a load you may as well pack it all in right now.

But I don't believe that you don't understand that, because if you don't understand that then you don't understand volts x current x time = energy.  If you don't understand that then you can't perform a single experiment.  You are FOS and playing dumb because you feel some strange compulsion to not dare say the guy is dead wrong because you are scared of speaking the truth.  So you would rather act the fool because you think that's safer.  If you had any damn courage and strength of character you would also say the guy is dead wrong because you damn well know he is dead wrong.  So right now you are just his lackey and playing the fool.  It's a super fail.

Offline Jimboot

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2015, 06:30:29 AM »
Bullshit.  If you can't understand the concept of ampere-hours and how they implicitly are tied into an associated voltage then you may as well pack it all in right now.  If you can't understand how to measure how much energy a battery can output into a load you may as well pack it all in right now.

But I don't believe that you don't understand that, because if you don't understand that then you don't understand volts x current x time = energy.  If you don't understand that then you can't perform a single experiment.  You are FOS and playing dumb because you feel some strange compulsion to not dare say the guy is dead wrong because you are scared of speaking the truth.  So you would rather act the fool because you think that's safer.  If you had any damn courage and strength of character you would also say the guy is dead wrong because you damn well know he is dead wrong.  So right now you are just his lackey and playing the fool.  It's a super fail.
. you on the other hand have super powers and can read ppl minds, you probably don't understand but posts like that are often why you are referred to as a troll


Offline tinman

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2015, 07:38:46 AM »
Build something better MH. Oh that's right you don't build, you tear down. I can't comment on your calculations, what I would say is that I'd trust a man who gives freely and generously of his time rather than one who seemingly spend all his time criticising others work and does none himself.

Jim
MH is correct.
I too like RMS and all he has done,but when it come's down to it,he(RMS) is just wrong on this one. His calculations are way out to lunch.

The thing is,he has totally forgot about the voltage-->there is no power with current alone.
So some quick and dirty calculations from his clip.
I see the average current over that 4 minutes of his EESD as being about 74mA,and an average voltage of around .94 volt's<--and this is taking into account that very quick 1.5 voltas at the start that dropped to 1.4 in about a second. So over that 4 minutes we had around 69.5mW of power flowing. Now,if we average that over an hour,we would have 69.5mW/15 =4.63 mWh <--can i do it this way MH,PW ?

Now if we look at the Li Ion battery. RMS states that it is an 1.1 amp hour battery=or something close to that. The voltage of those batteries is around 3.6v. Now,because we dont have a discharge time or current for that battery,we cant be to accurate with the amp hour discharge rate. But we can safely assume that it will be higher than the 74mA average that RMS discharged his cap at. So now we can calculate the power output over time for that Li Ion battery.
This will be 3.6 volts @ 74mA=266.4mW. Going by battery specs at the 1.1 amp hour rating,and the fact that we are only drawing 74mA,we could expect to draw that much power for around 14.8 hours.

So we have RMS EESD providing 4.63mWh for 1 hour,and the LI Ion providing 266.4 mW for say 14 hours. So for 1 hour,RMS EESD only provides 1.73% of that of the Li Ion battery-->over the 14 hours that is only .12% of the energy the LI Ion battery could supply.
Things dont look so good now.

 Edit: In saying all this,i have to admit that the capacity per weight volume is still very good.
Please see my next post
« Last Edit: December 02, 2015, 10:19:00 AM by tinman »

Offline tinman

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2015, 10:18:23 AM »
OK,so here is some scientific info for you MH ;)

Watching the video ,and taking note of time,volts and current shown on RMS's video,and after many tests using different size capacitors,i can achieve the same discharge curve as RMS shows with his EESD by using a 25 farad cap discharging over a 10 ohm resistor. The voltage and current drop over the given time are within a micky wisker of each other. So it would seem that RMS's EESD capacity is very close to 25 farads. The thing i dont know is to what voltage RMS's EESD can be charged to,where as the 25 farad cap can be charged to 2.7 volt's. At 1.5 volts,the 25 farad cap will store 28.125 joules of energy,but at 2.7 volts,it will store 91.125 joules of energy.

The other differences are
1-my 25 farad cap weighs some 16 times that of the EESD in total,
2-the super cap would be a lot more expensive to buy,than it would be to make the EESD.
3-If the EESD were lifted to the weight volume of that of the super cap-->in other words,we would have 16 of his EESD's charged to 1.5 volts,then the capacity would exceed that of the super cap by a factor 5x-or very close to,when the super cap was charged to the full 2.7 volts.

So regardless of the mistakes you and i picked up on,it would still seems that the EESD exceeds todays super caps per weight volume by a factor of 5.
So now what?.

Things we still need to know
1-Cycle life of the EESD
2-safety issue's-like,will they catch fire if the load is too heavy :D
3-how fast can they be charged before heat destroys them.


Brad


Offline MileHigh

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Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2015, 11:29:58 AM »
. you on the other hand have super powers and can read ppl minds, you probably don't understand but posts like that are often why you are referred to as a troll

You don't have the guts or character to admit that you are wrong when it is as plain as day.  And you damn well know that I know what I am talking about and if I make a mistake I will freely admit it.  Then you play a silly straw man game.  You are clearly the one that is trolling me.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A Perspective On The B Type EESD - Robert Murray-Smith - Any issues?
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2015, 11:29:58 AM »

 

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