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Author Topic: Gravity powered water generator  (Read 6901 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2017, 10:44:46 PM »

I honestly don't understand what you're saying.
Energy from gravity is commom. It's called hydro plants. Norway is full of them. But the water is lifted by the heat from the sun.


"How get the electron gas (= Plasma,electricity) stimulated to reach a total system OU break-even !?? "
What are you actually telling us? That sentence was a puzzle.


This one as well:"C.O.P.>1 but the generator ever <1 : ergo thermo/kineto-dynamic cycle".
Impossible to grasp the idea.


Please explain, and be clear.


Vidar

I do not think so !

Brutus("you,too ?" Julius Gaius Caesar) is not interested in a kinetical engine,
he wants to convert force (potential,gravitational)power to electrical power.

How get the electron gas (= Plasma,electricity) stimulated to reach a total system OU break-even !?

C.O.P.>1 but the generator ever <1 : ergo thermo/kineto-dynamic cycle

the syphon-principle is hereby included,if water/liquid is the intermittent medium.

BTW,Brutus,
what do you think about the Karpenko/Marukhine ram pump generator ?
Working efficiency data ? Analysis object !
They only worked out the analytical results from an other russian academical scientist. Theorem to practizising

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2017, 10:44:46 PM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2017, 10:52:23 PM »

The word conservative means no change. A conservative system wants to keep it the way it always has.
I have no idea that can help you out. The only thing I can say, is that you cannot get that extra energy from anywhere.


Vidar

Low-Q:    The idea is to find the most conservative approach you can to deliver the necessary extra energy which is being lost due to the units consumption of working energy.   If you can find a more conservative way of delivery to maintain the process, then great.  I have only listed a few as I have found them.  I'm sure you could come up with many more.  It is only a concept at this point.  This is just my vision of how it could work.  Like I said in the last post, I could just eliminate the water wheel pump and install a regular water pump with the required amount of flow to fill as needed and install an adjustable output method to control it all.   All powered by the units generator.  The conveyor is the initial power source.  It must maintain a required amount of weight to allow the unit to function.    The required driving force (weight) is the only non-negotiable part of this. 
 I have even thought of using an impeller, like is used in water craft only bigger.   It starts big at the bottom and funnels into smaller and smaller channels till it gets to center pipe and then up to the top  for release into buckets.   Looks similar to an enclosed washing machine agitator but is more elongated in its impute channels and is spun by the power of the buckets. It has breakers on the sides of the water tank to prevent water from spinning in the tank.   Like I said there are as many ideas as there are people.  If you can make a better widget please do.  I'd love to hear about it. 
I could even put a weight on it to manually drive the extra pump.  But, I don't want to have to resort to anything manual.  I want a self sustaining unit.
Your see saw idea is not taking into consideration the losses.  The unit is not stationary.  Motion requires energy.  Someone has to push in order to move the see saw.  So energy is used.  You have to feed the people in order to have them push the see saw into motion.  Thus added energy to accomplish and maintain the motion.


Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2017, 02:19:51 AM »
A 5kW generator will require 5.5kJ per second constantly to run at 5kW,, losses in the generator.

1 kilogram is equal to 9.80665002864 N.
1J is 1N for 1m.

5500÷9.80665002864= 560kg roughly.

This will need to fall at a rate of 1m per second,, so a 10m high start will take 10 seconds to hit the bottom.

If you have 10 buckets on the rope then each bucket will need to hold 56kg of water.

You will then only need to lift 56kg of water 10 meters in one second to refill the next bucket.

Your cost will then be 56kg*10meters,, we have the kg to N conversion up there so that is 550N*10M = 5500 roughly,, per second.

The extra weight of water.  Where does it come from and where does it go?  If you fill up an "extra" then for it to do work for you under the influence of gravity it must fall down,, this means you must lift it back up.

Converting your "pull" into torque and the energy and power and stuff there is easy.

there are 2piJ per full revolution per N-m, so if you have a 1m radius and apply 1N of force for 1 full revolution you have 6.283185307J,, then use revolutions per SECOND to convert to Watt.

Small note,, if I have a 1m radius then the circumference is 2r*pi which is 2pi in this case and so the circumference distance traveled for 1 full revolution is 6.283185307m, then that *1N gives you the distance and force per revolution.

A lot of rotating stuff is done using radians per second,, there are 2pi radians in 360 degrees,, so 1 radian per second at 1N-m of torque is 1 Watt per second.

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2017, 11:12:27 AM »
Yes,there are many water falls and dams worldwide,natural and artificial.

The biggest falls under water,with falling heights up to several thousands meters and huge water mass : beside Groenland/Gibraltar.

                                    But there are several doubts about mobility and portability . ;)

To get a water powered engine http://www.overunity.com/watermotor/index.htm is not the problem,
to get a complete energy transforming device,
which gives a "total system OU-performance" under generator/consumer no-load/half-/full-load and poor bemf is more complex,
including the load inrush current phase.


"How get the electron gas (= Plasma,electricity) stimulated to reach a total system OU break-even !?? "
L.A.S.E.R.,M.A.S.E.R.

What happens on the surface from photo-/phono-voltaic cells and on/in the npn pnp-layer ? chain reaction : electron gas flow

What happens on/in a coil/foil (un-/treated(coated) ?


Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2017, 12:36:22 AM »
Webby1, Low Q, Lanca IV:  Thank you all for engaging in very compelling  dialog.  I appreciate all your learned impute.  I could not even begin to challenge your obvious intellectual prowess.  I  have just been stating from a plain ordinary idea,  the thought processes of my idea.  I value all your discussion on the merits and the scientific and also mathematical  problems and in analyzing this assembly.  Culminating,  in a consensus  of all of you as to the non-workability of this idea. 
Sorry but I don't think you have addressed the points I have been making as to why this process works.  You keep saying how I can't create a power  source which can self maintain.  Tell that to the guy with the tank generator I mentioned earlier.  He is using gravity to fall through a pipe with 30 plus in line generators which gives him 4,000 watts of power and only needs one pump to send it back to restart.  According to thx1138's rendition at the same post. 
I guess the only way to really see is to build it.  I promise when I do I will come back and give you the verdict good or bad. 
I have given as many explanations as I can to let you understand the process and I don't think you got it.  The unit is functioning fully (completely self running at the point of start up) to all degrees and the generated power just has to cover necessary losses.  No math as yet has convinced me otherwise.  So 5.5K to run 5k sounds good but the energy is not to the point of doing that.   I already have the power running, it just supplements it.  More later.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2017, 12:36:22 AM »
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Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2017, 05:23:54 AM »
To All"   I will try to explain this as simply  as I can and as I have envisioned it.   
Forget the water buckets for now.  I am starting with a set of weights, separated by a little bit from each other.  I am using those weights to force a step up gear system to run a generator at optimal speed so as to maximize the output power.   I am getting say 5,000 watts from this driving weight to electrical power ratio.  As long as the weight stays the same I will be running the generator the same speed and the power output will remain the same.  Now when the first weight  gets to the bottom it must be sent back to the top and reapplied to the system to continue the same operative functions, and the power to do that is built into the system through the weights already on the rotating line.  It has all the weight it needs on one side to make every thing run and enough weight to also bring the bottomed out weight back up to the top on the other side with a fast motion so no loss in rotation from weighted side has occurred.   Perfectly balanced and choreographed motion.
  Now In my perfectly balanced system I would not need any power to send the weight back up to the top because it would already be in the initial weight plan allowing for that motion to occur.  Thus, at that point it would be self rotation (or self sustaining).  But, since I have losses, which all of you have pointed out, being caused by the "work", (such as drag from the gears, chains, bearings, gravity, etc.) the system must be supplemented to compensate for those losses to keep the system operating  or the weights will not be able to keep up with the losses and the operation will slowly come to a stop. 
 Now enters  the generator which is steadily putting out 5,000 watts of power with nothing to do.  Just wasting away.  I propose to utilize that power to compensate the losses of the system By having it add as much more weight to the system as it should need to keep it moving at its designated speed.  (say for imaginative purposes, filling  a bag of sand or whatever at the moment of need and adding it to the weighted side).
 So I have adjusted my first balanced system plan to allow for your imputed must do's.   ( Though to be honest, my simple brain cannot figure out why if the system is running itself throughout the whole process from the use of the weights why I would need to compensate anything.  It is already functioning through the full cycle). Repetitively from the weights.    I see that if I used the generator power I might get a drag effect from that as it try's to slow down from the draw.  That's one you might know of. 
Like I said in earlier post there are generators no with little or no cogging effect.  But if that was already built into the weights at start up then that would not be a factor. 
So I just don't get why you say it can't work. 
Say I was pulling a lunch wagon.  If he never fed me I would eventually have to stop.  But if the man kept feeding me I could keep pulling the wagon.   And If I could not pull the wagon due to not having enough muscle I would just add more muscle.    Same principle.

P.S.  I used the word conservative as in "preservative",  Not to use any more than is necessary to do a function.  And also to find the most efficient methods and materials available to create as little drag  on the system as possible.
Webby1:
Back to the water buckets. 
 Your idea of just one pump is very practical and (conservative).  I could have enough starting weight driving the system to allow for more water going back up than necessary and just bleed off the unnecessary amount  and there by sustain the system without stealing from the generators power.   

Water is easy to work with.  So I chose water to power the system through a bucket conveyor.  It is easier than moving solid materials.  I can put any amount of water into a bucket system and have as much torque as I need for driving any "work" I need to.   I used a Rope pump assemble  to draw water to the top to resupply the bucket system, also being powered by the bucket system.  So if I need more water to maintain the system at any point I feel I could just add more water weight in the buckets to power the extra need at the start.  Like I said it all starts with more than enough water driving force to supply the motion of the assembly.  The buckets also are driving the step up gears which in turn are driving the generator.  So all the power from the buckets are driving the entire system completely.  AND a little extra water coming to the top from the initial power drive to enable fine tuning the systems needs. 
So if you say it won't work then we stand at a point of disagreement, only a build will cure. 
     

Offline fritznien

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2017, 05:40:59 AM »
put some real numbers on your device.
what energy you get from a descending weight,
what it will take to reset that weight.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2017, 05:40:59 AM »
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Offline Acca

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2017, 07:01:22 AM »
I gave up on this 4 years ago.. and so it's back .. I hope it will work as to "your" formulation...

 Why the GAIA ROSCH buoyancy power plant
 (kinetic power plant) will never work
 
 
 
http://gaia.ws1.eu/mmr_en.php
 
 
http://gaia.ws1.eu/index_en.php
 
http://www.overunity.de/1797/rosch-auftriebskraftwerk-gaia-auftriebs-kraftwerk-wie-es-funktioniert/3585/
 
Acca..
 
p.s. It’s the numbers …that are real..
 
 However if you use a permanent magnet rotor generator China type.. Strange effects happen … Who knows ?? [/font]

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2017, 12:26:05 PM »
@Brutus


Calculate the energy output of a perfectly balanced system.
Yes, you said it yourself. You got a perfectly balanced system.


The story about the assumingly working gravityplant is not true.
Just face it. It will not work.


Vidar

Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2017, 02:52:43 PM »

Like I said in earlier post there are generators no with little or no cogging effect.  But if that was already built into the weights at start up then that would not be a factor. 
So I just don't get why you say it can't work. 

So if you say it won't work then we stand at a point of disagreement, only a build will cure. 
   

No cogging does not mean that it does not take power to run the generator with a load on it.  If this were all it took,, a "no cogging generator" to make it a "no input work required" thing.

It takes the same amount of work to lift the water\weight\whatever the same distance it fell,, conservative in this respect.  It takes power supplied to the generator for the generator to output power.
I showed you the basic math,, I am no expert but I am sharing what I have learned from "doing",,

So, yes,,, we will have to agree to disagree and good luck with your build.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2017, 02:52:43 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2017, 03:40:40 PM »
Cogging is just a result of uneven distribution of forces. Cogging or not does not change the final outcome.


Vidar

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #41 on: July 11, 2017, 07:48:06 PM »
To All :  I do appreciate your impute and I have tried to apply it.  So instead of starting a new posting idea I have decided to let you see it and tell me if it is just as bad as the last one. 
I utilize the same water generator idea but with a twist.  I drew it up to be as simple to follow as I can.  I am sure between your accumulated knowledge base this is probably a no brainer.  (No pun  intended.)  So here goes;

The process is using water buckets filled at the top of gear one and drives the conveyor which will resemble Scan #10 on reply # 7.  This will accommodate the turns required in the conveyors path.  The buckets already full of water as they enter the tank will cause minimal slowing. 
The buckets then travel past gear two on toward gear three which will then turn upward where it will be filled with air, displacing the water.  That will cause the buckets to gain a pull power of their own. 

The buckets then travel up to and over gear four which will release the air into air pocket at the top of the tank.  And so travel back down after filling up again with water. 

On the side of the tank I have fitted an air pipe from the air pocket at the top of the tank and installed the other end into the bottom of the tank which I am hoping will fill the buckets with air at junction of gear three from the pressure.
 
My question to all of you is,   will this maintain a constant and stable air supply?  The air stays in the tank and not released anywhere as far as I can tell.  Maybe a minute amount one way or another from the buckets coming and going?

I have put a direct tube from the tank just under the water line to flow out to fill the buckets.  The water inside the buckets as they travel to gear three are full of water so that it releases into the tank to replenish the tank again.  Maybe a better placement to assure this?  Farther up maybe?   The conveyor gear placement is negotiable like for shorter distances to points traveled or taller overall for more travel time. 

The air pressure at the top of the tank should keep the water at a constant height, Yes?

I forgot to mention at the start there are two parts to the tank if it is not obvious.  The base goes all the way from wall to wall.  Then you have a second section which is basically inserted into the main tank like an upside down glass into a bucket.  The center wall goes under the main water height to allow the tall tank to hold the water.  You all know of this fact.  I just need your feed back as to the functionality  of this idea. 

It seems I would be gaining more power from this idea than just the buckets coming down would offer. 


Offline citfta

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #42 on: July 11, 2017, 08:36:35 PM »
Sorry again but it can't work.  The water pressure at the bottom of the tank will force the water back up the tube instead of letting the air flow out to fill the buckets.  Also air will flow into the tube that is supposed to be filling the buckets and this will then let the water in the higher side flow over to the other side and out onto the floor.

Get a container of water and a plastic disposable cup.  Fill the cup completely full of water and then with the open end down raise it until most of the cup is above the water level.  Now poke a small hole in the cup down from the top a little.  Watch what happens.  Did water flow out of the hole?  Did air go into the hole and water ran out the open end of the cup?

I admire you wanting to do something and you have some original ideas but you really need to get an education in basic physics.  I am sure there are some online classes you could take to help you.

Respectfully,
Carroll

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2017, 10:52:58 PM »
citfta:   Your right.    I knew most of your points.  And great analysis.   I just thought that with enough air pressure at the top it would maintain my idea.  I can see that the pressure is much larger at the bottom than the top so it can't work this way.  I remember now that water will always seek a perfect level.   That would just fill the pipe to the exact level as in the tank.   I will have to use an outside source for an air supply.    I would also have to install a pressure gauge/ outlet/inlet device  to maintain the same pressure so the water does not  lower to the bucket fill pipe.  I knew that would be catastrophic.  I am testing a plastic bottle with straws to see about the water flow pipe.  Will get back with you.  I am waiting for the glue to dry. I know it will suck air in and lower the water level back into the lower tank if it is allowed to reach the air pocket.  I may have to put in a small pump to push the water through and not use an open hole application.   It is cheaper energy if I use the water up high than to use the water down below and bring it up to fill the buckets as in my other design.   
    I am just  debating if I am drawing the water out at the top of the tall tank, if more water will come in to replace it and remain at the same level if the air in the tank remains the same.  I think so.  That's the balancing act I am looking for. 
     How about a  small air pump sucking out the top air in tank and forcing it down into the side air pipe. for filling the buckets.  Then the water would not fill the pipe.  And the air would return to the top in the buckets and so keeping my initial pressure and level still in the tank.  Using a ball stop I could keep the flow going one way.   And, would all this cost me to much in used energy to justify the build? 
Some things to ponder.
   I am thinking I would be saving a lot with a pump to fill the buckets if it were stationed at the top so I would not have to pull so much so far.  As, in thx1138's tank  pump  idea.   Basically, just cut it from the top few inches.  And with the air flow giving more power I think this idea just bumped up My last generator idea.  (Course all of you may feel differently).  Thank you for the help anyway.
   


Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2017, 11:13:59 PM »
citfta:   I just did a remodel according to your specification of the problem areas.  I know you all think it won't work any way but I did address your issues.  Scan 22 is the fix.   Thanks.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2017, 11:13:59 PM »

 

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