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Author Topic: Gravity powered water generator  (Read 15030 times)

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #90 on: August 08, 2017, 10:29:35 PM »
Thanks for the  encouragement. 

First Carrol:  Sorry, My bad.   Yes I would like to build it.  It's my passion.  But I would like to go large enough to make it worth while in the end.    But I want to make sure I get it as close to right as humanly possible.  That is why I am so grateful to all of you for your  interest and impute.   I think with all of your help this project has evolved  considerably.  I now have much more knowledge to make a more feasible enlightened approach to the build as I could never have done alone.  And yes,I should probably do a scaled down version first so I'm not sleeping in the dog house later.  (Happy wife, Happy life).   I will look into a straight compressor as you suggested.  It would save a lot one way but create more in another.  But it did make me pause and give more to think about.  I am for any idea that makes the system better, more functional.   I had intended to use the bunch of bicycles I acquired for this purpose and so have some wheels and multiply gearing capabilities at hand.  I thought of making the U-Tube Wilkerson step up gearing plan mentioned on the 1st page, but I have found the shafts are going to be a problem getting them from one spot to another in the step up process.  I don't have access to a machine shop any more as I did for twenty years.  That's why I drew the step up gears using  stronger shafts, gears and chains.   It sounds like I am kind of late to this rodeo.  All of you have traveled this freight train before. 

webby1;  I looked at your suggested sites and something popped into my head.  It is kind of a different approach  to a compressor of sorts.  Don't know if it would even be functional except in my head.  But scan 26 shows a really rough outline of the idea.    Wish I could draw.

 
Sorry it's sideways;  The idea is, if I use an impeller, like in a water boat, or some other type item that will agitate and push the mixture through, if I could use a pipe with air and a pipe with water coming together then going through the turbine/impeller, and causing a (cavitation/frothing) of the mixture and sending it out to a pipe to the buckets where the air would rise out of an opening, or a separator of sorts,  filling the buckets with air and  leaving the water to continue down and out farther on.    This would be driven by the bucket conveyor.   With a step up gear array.

 Another way could be to set up partly on the surface to get the air and partly submerged to get the water and then forced down through the pipe servicer.  Though that may be to much distance to keep the air and water combined.     It's just an idea at this point to ask if it is doable.  Placement is up for debate as to best application.  At least your home work assignments are getting me to think.

Kind of goes with Carrol's ballast  homework also. 

Also, just as a side bar;  I was looking at a Toyota Prius water pump 2004-2009 on u-tube and was impressed with the volume of water it pumped with just a 12 volt solar panel.  I could use that as a secondary to add to the water buckets to  keep the needed water coming.  (covering the losses).  It is still in keeping with my off grid theme.  I might have to  use two to get a decent flow to that height. Just from the water level it shot what looked like a 5/8 to1 in.diameter stream about 3 to 4 feet into the air using no pipe.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #90 on: August 08, 2017, 10:29:35 PM »

Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #91 on: August 09, 2017, 02:11:37 AM »

Interesting,, made me wonder what would happen around the turbine,, as in would it form an air bubble, or would the added air increase the drag at a stall speed by allowing more water to get moved,,


What if the turbine blade was hollow with some diffuser holes and the air pipe went into the hollow space,,  could the low pressure suck in air and fill the trailing edge void???


The turbine would have the least drag and therefore lowest draw when the system was stalled,,pump spinning with no moving water,, so with no moving water would you end up with only a centrifugal air pump??


My knee-jerk response is that it wont work,, but you do not know until you do,, that is why I build and play with things,, once I DO something I know :)


Offline citfta

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #92 on: August 09, 2017, 05:58:45 PM »
Hi Brutus,

Here is an online calculator that you can use to determine the water pressure at the bottom of your tank.  You will then only need enough air pressure to overcome the water pressure to get air into your buckets.  Hope this information is helpful.

http://www.calctool.org/CALC/other/games/depth_press

Carroll

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #93 on: August 11, 2017, 11:35:13 PM »
citfta:  Thanks for the calculator.   I am old school in that I don't know meters and such.  So what do I put the bottom right list on?  If I want to see what the answer would be if I was  9 feet deep?  I got 1.3 with what was set there already.  Or I will just study it more and learn how to use it properly.  I just don't know what any of the initials, (letters),stand for. 

I have been looking into my last idea and found I am way behind.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGrfNn9nUdQ  As usual, many have come before.  I found just googling that there are several methods that do exactly the same thing I was trying to do. 

One method was  a tank liquid agitator/aerator called an Eductor.  Simply a miniature, compact version of what I thought I had come up with.   But it did show that my idea was possible. 

 Another was a Venturi Aerator.  The problem with these two ideas is I would still need to generate a water flow to make them work.  And each may not be as useful as just a compressor would be.

  A third was what caught my interest the most as it fits better in my set up.  It is along the same thought webby1 had I think.    It is called a turbine vortex generation aerator.  It simply uses a shaft to turn a special built turbine that spins the water to a point where it creates air bubbles.  From the materials I have been reading I assume it is the boiling point of the water creating the Phenomena.   The simple one I saw on the U-Tube video  was only operated by a hand drill.  It was made from some disks put together.  Kind of reminded me of a Tesla pump with out the casing. I don't know how it was put together.  (what was in between the disks).  I could probably build one if I knew.  Maybe impeller type blades.  I would need to encase the general area around it though due to the turbulence/spin it creates, or capturing and guiding the air bubbles would be a problem. 

 So I now have several methods to choose from on the large build. Not sure yet of the best method to use.   I am not above asking for any one's opinion.  I know citfta says an air compressor.  But with all the additional dialog may have changed his mind.  Just looking for the best approach and function.    I can use the buckets and a step up array to power it.   I know many of you have been down this road already so your impute is worth it's weight in gold. 

I had already bought the wire cable and plugs for the air pipe system.  That with the bicycles, wheels and sprockets I acquired and are on hand, I might just try that way first on my small test model.   Just need the pvc pipe and plug stops to complete the list.   Just wondering if the drag from all the plugs going through the open side in the water would negate the gain.  They are made from pine so they would have a little float to them.   Wait a minute.  A new thought.  (Thinking out loud).

 I think if I were to make the plugs out of some air filled membrane, like plastic plugs, or slightly elongated air sacks for even more lift,  I could  eliminate the problem of water drag all together.  And, actually gain more lift and more energy for the system.  Working two air lift systems, the plugs and the buckets.  Sounding better all the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpmEQctfqcI  (Venturi effect)

And lastly.  I think the collapseable buckets are more efficient.  Using a plastic type membrane, (Webby1's idea),  or clothe like a water bag type or just leather totes.  Just so they would open when filling with air and collapse when dumped at the top.  That would drastically reduce the drag from the bucket system while rotating to the fill point.  And so provide more energy/thrust gain.  I am thinking the plastic would be better.  Totally less drag, friction and smaller presence. (Foot print). 

Foot note:  I am amazed and excited at the progress and alterations this idea has come to.   It is on the verge of a working model. (In my opinion).  With just a few more  conceptual items, (mentioned above), to work out, I think, thanks to all of you,  we have done it. 

Set up the assembly with collapseable buckets and air filled plugs on the air drive system and waa laa.  I have no doubt it would run its self.  The taller you go,  the bigger the buckets, the more thrust/hp would be available to run a generator for home power.  My original desire to find an off grid system.  ( Me Thinks).

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2017, 12:05:08 AM »
Forgot to put in the vortex aeration U-tube site; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MrYcbpREjQ

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #94 on: August 12, 2017, 12:05:08 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #95 on: August 12, 2017, 12:31:54 AM »
http://www.metric-conversions.org/converter.htm


One stop shopping :)


Just blowing bubbles up a pipe will lift water,,  :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airlift_pump.


Offline citfta

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #96 on: August 12, 2017, 02:00:13 AM »
Hi Brutus,

To use the calculator I linked to just go to the two rectangular boxes with the down pointing arrows.  In the top one click on the arrow and choose feet.  In the bottom rectangle click on the arrow and choose psi which is way at the bottom of the list.  Then when you enter the height  of your water tower it will give you the pressure in pounds per square inch or psi.  That is the pressure you will need to overcome with your air pressure in order to force air into the water.

I do like the idea of some sort of collapsible scoop or bucket to catch the air so it will have less drag coming back down through the water.  Some sort of bucket type device might also work if it had a lid that was hinged and could swing easily.  It would need to be sealed on the top side when closed.  The rising air would push the lid up until it sealed and then raise the bucket.  On the way down the water would push the lid open and create less drag.  Kind of the reverse of the old time well buckets we used as a kid.  They had a flap in the bottom of a long piece of round downspout.  As you let it down in the well the water pushing up opened the flap.  When you pulled it up the water above the flap held it closed and allowed you to raise a pipe full of water.

Take care,
Carroll

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #96 on: August 12, 2017, 02:00:13 AM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #97 on: August 12, 2017, 05:03:56 PM »

  So far this topic has focused on how to get the water to the top.  The drawings attached have been of a top and bottom wheel with the buckets both upward and downward in a vertical configuration.  I would like to bring back my point of the advantage of leverage.  Lets say we have a typical 10 ' water wheel that has 12 spokes like the face of a clock.  We change the the rope and bucket so it follows a " D " shape with the straight back of the "D" running up through the center of the water wheel from 6 o'clock/ through the center of the hub to 12 o'clock.  If we start with a bucket at the bottom and another at the top and rotate the D wheel clockwise 90 degrees till the bottom bucket reaches the hub and the top bucket is at 3 o'clock. Swap the rope for bungee cord so the longer circumference of the wheel can stretch from the shorter distance of the straight back.

Each bucket has 20 lbs of weight but at the hub that bucket is basically sitting on the fulcrum of a lever with no advantage or cost of leverage.  It is the bucket that is sitting out on the 5' radius (lever) of the 10' diameter water wheel that is doing 5 times the work when the energy is extracted at the hub and not from the 20 lb bucket falling. Everyone has used a breaker bar correct? Would the added torque to the hub help in the lift?

Sorry I got off the topic of the lift but if we can also improve the performance of the drop it may be worth investigating. 

Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #98 on: August 12, 2017, 05:27:02 PM »
Wanted to add that with all the buckets full - the buckets at 1-5 O'clock are all adding some amount of torque/ Leverage to the hub.

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2017, 02:42:13 AM »
bw100007:   I had the same thought  as you at the start of this discussion.  On page one smOKy2 addressed this issue in reply 2, 4, and 6.  Instead of repeating it here just go there and read it.  I also thought that stretching/elongating the buckets out like you suggest was a way to go.  More buckets out farther the more torque.  Not sure I fully grasped the reasoning but  I think he was saying gravity was the same for the amount of water used.  No matter how far you go out it still takes the same energy to get the water back up.  Minus losses.  Maybe the members can explain it to you better. 

I saw a demonstration of a model  on a u-tube video that when it came to the point of rotating each weight over to the downward side it basically slung an elongated arm with the weight attached out to throw a torque/thrust factor into the rotation and then receded back again at the bottom so one side was always farther out.  This seemed to cause the perpetual motion/rotation of the assembly  By giving the assembly an extra weight thrust on one side.  That was why I thought your concept was the way to go. 

I think, as I have modified the assembly at this point, To stretch the assembly out would only give me more buckets full of air and so more torque.  But the same could be done just by adding more buckets to a straight up, vertical conveyor. I see no gain in the stretch except to maybe shorten the distance up.  I could use a shorter tank  and thus giving me less pressure to over come with the air pump.  Actually, might not a bad idea.  But smOKy2's words are coming back to haunt me.  He said it would only travel farther and take more time and losses.    But in this instance it may fairly work for the pressure easement.   I think your still thinking of my original idea.

 I believe the assembly, as constructed/imagined now, with the collapseable  air tanks and the air filled plugs should be self generating/operating.  Now I have to build it to prove it.  But I am wondering if it would be over kill to use this assembly as an enhancer to my original system.  That would give me that extra that every one says I need to make it work.   But one thing at a time. 

As a note;  I am picturing a replacement of the bucket with a soft plastic bag that is hinged, or not, on the bottom and so as the water drains at the top of the water level, the bag flaps closed from the water dragging over it on the way down.  and so it has very little foot print.  When it gets down to the air impute nozzle it will open from the force of the air drawing it open.  That way there is no need for  the displacement of the water with air factor involved with the bucket/bag.  The bag opening will have a little plastic piece mounted across  the lip and bent/concave slightly so it will have a small opening to allow the air to gain entrance and fill more easily.  It would have to be mounted top and bottom to the chain guide with appropriate hardware for stability. 

The air assembly plugs could be as simple as coated stirafoam or a plastic donut.  Will look into that further.  Something that will give the most lift and come as close as possible to the diameter of the pipe for air pull without causing a dragging effect on the sides any more than necessary.  Maybe a leather flap on the plug would suffice. 

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2017, 02:42:13 AM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2017, 07:50:52 PM »
I have never seen a water wheel that has the buckets in a vertical configuration.  This link may help you in determining your bucket size and possible power once you bring the water to the top or the head height and ft per second flow.  You have to look at the power at the hub. 


There are many sites that discuss this.  Once you have X amount of water flowing at an X amount of speed from a x height you can calculate the power you can generate on the way down.  There are also many hydro turbines on the market



http://www.backwoodshome.com/design-calculations-for-overshot-waterwheels/

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #101 on: August 14, 2017, 05:50:03 AM »
O.K.    I finished the schematic mock up of my second try at the water generator.  It is drawn as to the way it will operate, not as to the materials.  I discussed that in the last post.  But it is basically the same as the original idea just reversed to incorporate the impute from all those who helped in this discussion.  I am still trying to do the math which I was never a good student.  I am using a 9 foot deep tank so I can use 14 buckets.  I can only keep 6 filled at a time for lifting to seven feet.   If I use a wide, short canvas bag/tote  for a bucket I can get around 1 to 2 gallons of air in each.  If I get the same lift weight as water weight I think I should get approximately 48 to 96 lbs of thrust.  I am trying for a rotation speed of at least 3 rotations a minute.  (Don't have a clue as to what it will actually do).  And, I haven't got a clue at this point as to what size generator this set up will turn.   I am using a three inch diameter pipe for the air pulley system.  So I also need to figure out the needed flow rate of air to fill the buckets.  This will be done with a chain driven gear ratio from the buckets to the air pulley system gear. So it will a consistant flow of air.   As shown in the schematic.  (Sprocket). 

I am hoping the air plugs rising in the water medium can offset the  air pulley system draw of energy so I can save some of the energy gained for the step up gears and generator needs.  I did a drawing of the first concept and this last idea put together as a companion to each other but I think it is over kill for now.  I need to see if this one works first. 

I think I can use less step up gears than are in the drawing by about four or five gears. 

bw100007:   I like this elongated conveyor style over a round wheel because a round wheel dumps its water way to soon.  My way retains the air for approx.
 6/7ths of its cycling time.  (On the Filled side).

As in the first schematic I don't show the framing holding everything in place.  That would get to hard to see the concept art at this stag.    As for the electrical, One just needs to google it.  Most solar or electrical places can tell what you need to wire up the generator. 


Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #102 on: August 14, 2017, 07:56:46 PM »
This is just an after thought.  webby1 showed an air lift pump site on post 95 and got me to wondering if this idea would work.  I had started this tall tank idea as a secondary power supply to enhance the main first idea of the gravity water buckets.  So, the idea here is in that vain I was wondering if I could split the air flow going to the tall tank air bucket supply in tank B and a secondary air lift pump system in the main tank A.   The pressure is built in already from the compression in Tank B.  So forcing the air through the lower water pressure in tank a should give me the needed rise of water to supply the losses in tank A from its main gravity fed system.  Note: This is an addition  to the already operating system of tank A.  It does put more work on the system in tank B.  But if the whole purpose of tank B was to gain enough energy to make tank A operate then this should do it.   And I believe with both tanks running I could get a lot more hp to run a generator.   This is just a concept at this point. 

The newer pump lift system portrayed on that same site could work as well but I would need to build a rotating two or three bucket container to hold air until it tips and allows the air bulk to rise in a pipe and push the water up like a geyser.  More work than I would like to do.  But it should work.  At least that is how I think it should work. 

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #103 on: August 15, 2017, 03:55:32 AM »
This scan is not related to this topic.  It is a water powered generator, but not the topic.   I just wanted to share something I came up with today.  No need to discuss it.  I was just watching so many U-tube video's of people using a pelton wheel or a vortex turbine to generate power from a stream or such that  I just thought why not put a bunch of them together and get some real power going. 

It is a tub with water in it.  I picture a washing machine tub.  Or bigger.  It has a motor mounted on the top with a vortex turbine or other type blade at the end of the shaft.  It will simply spin the water which will in turn spins the side mounted Pelton wheels to run generators mounted on the Pelton wheels.  I picture the motor in the bottom of the washing machine capable of spinning the water also.  (ready made).  A smart drive motor I hear can get up to 1watt per revolution.  (They claim).  So four smart drives could give you 4 kw at 1,000 rpm.  And so on.  The bigger you build, the more generators or alternators you add, the more power you claim.  You need to modify the tank and Pelton wheel placements the faster you spin the water of course.  The Pelton wheels need to be big enough to turn your generator and small enough to get as fast a spin  as possible. 

You can also mount the Pelton wheels so as to utilize a belt pulley drive mounted on the outside in case you go with an alternator so you can step up the rotation to a higher speed.  Many possibilities. 

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #104 on: August 19, 2017, 05:35:08 AM »
Here are some numbers that some had wanted. 

3" diameter water pipe times 6 foot long  at .3673 gallons per foot = 2.204 gallons.

18 foot air pulley diameter divided by 3 = 6 foot of 2.204 gallons.

1 revolution of air pulley = 6.612 gallons.

14 air buckets = 14 gals.divided by 6.244 gal. = 2.242 air pulley revolutions for 1 air bucket conveyor revolution.

or, 4.284 air pulley revolutions for one 2 gal. air bucket conveyor revolution. 

So say ratio of 2.5 to 1 revolutions for 1 gallon buckets and 5 to 1 revolutions for 2 gallon buckets to accommodate the spillage of air into buckets.

     Now for my guess work.  I tried to follow the guide of the Design calculation for water wheels.  Don't know if it really fits this design  but it is all I have. 

Power is equal to the flow times head divided by 11.8. .
So 1 cfs times 7 foot head divided by 11.8= .5932.        .5932 divided by 11.8 = .0502kw.              .0502 times 6 buckets = .301kw.   

                                                                                       .0502 divided by .746 = .06729 hp             .06729 times 6 buckets = .4037 hp. 
                                                                                        double this for 2 gallon buckets and so forth. 

If I made a mistake please feel free to rectify it. 

I modified the schematic for the last time to fix some discrepancies. Like a wheel on the top of the air pulley.  The drag that would have occurred  with the pvc pipe guide that WAS there is now eliminated by replacing it with a free turning  wheel.

 The air buckets are showing the deflation factor as it rotates around allowing for less drag.  This gives a better visual of the actual process in motion.  Also the air is shown coming out of the pipe and air bucket for extra visual effect showing the impute and exhaust points better. 


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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #104 on: August 19, 2017, 05:35:08 AM »

 

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