Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

Poplamp

poplamp

CCTool

CCTool

LEDTVforSale

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

OverUnity Book

overunity principles book

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 491699
  • *Total Topics: 14471
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 9
  • *Guests: 94
  • *Total: 103

Facebook

Author Topic: Gravity powered water generator  (Read 13651 times)

Offline Brutus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2017, 11:59:39 PM »
webby1: 

Thank you.  That was the analysis I was expecting and dreading.  I will concede to it. 

Still doesn't change my mind about the functionality of the idea though. 

I am wondering if I completely separate the two tanks and make tank A, (With my original assembly), just as I had first drawn it.  Then added tank B as an enclosed system with the air buckets as a secondary driver power source.  All being driven by the buckets, and with the power from the generator to help feed extra water to buckets to compensate for the losses, I think it will still work.   

So, The water pump, the air pump and the generator are all linked together, all driven by the bucket conveyors using gears and pulleys or chains. 

Have to think about the air buckets some more.  No one thinks the Rosch air designs works so I may just chuck the secondary tank idea. 


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2017, 11:59:39 PM »

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #76 on: August 05, 2017, 07:04:43 AM »
With a setup very close to what you are talking about I made a displacement pump to transfer the water from a low reservoir into the bottom of the tall tank,, I placed the pump itself inside the tall reservoir.  It was just a long rod going through a seal into a chamber that had a few one way valves,, so as the rod went down it would eject the fluid out of the chamber and into the tall tank and then when the rod was lifted up it sucked in fluid from the low reservoir.


I used a few "tricks" to get its efficiency up really high and I could use the discharge volume of water in a "bucket" to pull a drive string down that turned the system that ran the pump,, it was really close.
The displacement pump was more efficient than an electric pump ,, it was very close :)


I used a large plastic garbage can for the tall tank.


Offline Brutus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #77 on: August 06, 2017, 06:12:54 AM »
webby1; 

So say you had two tanks and one end of your pump was in the bottom tank and the other end was in the tall tank and you drew the water into the tall tank with a sealed suction device?  (Displacement Pump).    Neither tank in your set up had  a sealed/enclosed environment such as mine.  You transferred water from the shallow pool into the deep water at the deep water junction.   And you used the water to flow from the top of the tank into your "bucket".    I can see how that would be very good in getting around the problem of lift.   Would there be no or little resistance pressure to overcome when you expelled the water from the rod?  Oh that's right a displacement pump is known for its  resistance to  pressures.   

So would not a displacement pump work in my sealed tank scenario?  It would circumvent a large portion of the pressure problem, Right?  Whether I drew it out at the top or like you drew it in from the bottom it seems like the same thing.

You are drawing the water in to the tall tank in as similar a way as I would need to draw it out to the buckets.  The cause and affect are the same.   I could use your same idea here and forget the enclosed tank .  Just let it run out from the top to the buckets.

 Can you say your idea is more efficient than an Archimedes screw pump?   Like using a large tubing wrapped around a smaller shaft driven by the water buckets and so fill a reservoir at the top to then fill the buckets.     Or is the lift still losing to much energy?   

One of the members stated in a prior  post that the screw only needed the power to turn it, not the power to lift the water if I remember right.  And isn't it also a displacement pump? 

I was looking at some of the Displacement pumps on line, how they work and such.  I will need to study them further.  Thanks for your personal impute and working knowledge. 

 

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #78 on: August 06, 2017, 07:07:24 AM »

I had a connection pipe from the low reservoir going to the pump chamber that was inside the tall tank.


The displacement rod came down through the water of the tall tank into the pump chamber.


The pump chamber had a one way valve that let water out of the chamber into the bottom of the tall tank water.


There was a one way valve on the reservoir to the connection pipe that went to the pump chamber that only allowed the water to flow from the reservoir into the pump chamber.


As the displacement rod was pulled upwards it would create a low pressure in the pump chamber that would allow the water from the reservoir to flow into the pump chamber and the one way valve that went to the water of the tall tank stopped water from flowing from the tall tank into the pump chamber.


As the displacement rod went down it would increase the pressure on the water in the pump chamber and force open the one way valve that let it flow out and into the water of the tall tank.  The one way valve going to the connection pipe to the low reservoir would stop water from flowing out of the pump chamber and into the low reservoir.


The top of both tanks were open to the air.


This system was very close to being able to run itself, but it never got all the way there.


I posted a spreadsheet for a spiral pump,, a close approximation of what to expect and some build information if one chose to build a version of it.


An Archimedes screw can be setup with a closed outer tube around the screw so that the only thing needed is a bearing on each end of the shaft, a spiral pump can be setup the same way if so desired.  Neither of these are without loss however, as well as my displacement pump was also not without loss.


With the spiral pump the cost is not the lifting of the water per-say,, it is in the difference in pressure that is created by the action of lifting the water.  This non-direct leverage\torque is hard for most to see and get a reasonable understanding of unless you build one,, how can it make a torque if there is nothing for the water to push against directly to apply a torque,,,, but it does create a torque.


It is not always easy to see and understand where forces are and how they are interacting with a device,,,  it is a learning process to be able to find the forces and then to understand some part of the interactions.


If you drop a mass a distance,, say 1kg 1m,, then that mass MUST be lifted back up the same distance,, whether you use a very long slope or lift it back straight up,, so if you are going to use the force of it falling then that is the force that must supplied to lift it back up and there is nothing left over, same force down as the force back up, hence a conservative exchange.


Now,, ask yourself why an inner tube does not sink,, does the end of the displacement rod not also see the water the same way?  Just because it is heavier than water does not mean much,,  take a rock and drop it in air,, then drop it in a large tank of water,, it may fall slower in the water,, but you need to ask why?  You should weigh the rock under water,, tie a string around the rock and use a pull scale or use a kitchen scale with a stick that goes across the scale so you can make a "Y" string to go around the scale to the string holding the rock,, slowly lower the rock into the water and watch the scale,, a learning experience, hands on.


Offline Brutus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2017, 12:37:55 AM »
I see running the flow back up is a negative gain in any way you put it together manually.  (without an anti gravity device).  But I still haven't been shown how if I have the generator running from the initial water bucket force/ flow so the generator is at its peak output, then why I could not use the generated kw to supplement the extra needed water flow losses  with an additional electric (displacement) pump.   And so keep the assembly running.   I know you said it takes 5.5 kw to run 5kw generator but I am not running a generator to run a generator I am using the water buckets to run the generator to peak output then using the generated power to supplement the inherent losses of water to the buckets to maintain its continuous operation.   That is in addition to the already established pumping system, (which ever way I decide to go), which is also powered by the water buckets. 

 But on to another idea. 
 If I were to have the tall tank enclosed, filled with water to say approximately 4/5ths or less full, and pressurized with air so that the pressurized air would be forcing itself through an attached outside top and bottom of tank connected  pipe with enough pressure to keep the water from traveling back up the outside pipe, maybe using a one way valve at the bottom, and the air continuing back into the tank at the bottom,   would the air at the top portion keep recirculating through the pipe to the bottom and back up again, as inside the buckets for lifting purposes?  (I show this drawn on the last model where the pipe goes from the top to outside the tank and returns into the bottom of the tank to fill the buckets allowing them to rise using the air).   Or would it just reach a stable/neutral point and stop?   

I know if had no top on the tank it would only work if I used an air pump and one way valve in the pipe. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2017, 12:37:55 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2017, 04:05:20 PM »
I think you miss-understand.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt


A Watt is a unit of power,, not just electrical power,,,  HP is a measure of power.


There will be a difference in pressure that you must replenish,, the air goes under with a lot of stored potential and expends some of that potential moving upwards.


Air makes pressure by having its quantity stuffed into a smaller volume,, so higher pressure air under the bucket will expand as the bucket moves up towards the top where there is less pressure from the water keeping the air compressed.

Offline Brutus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2017, 09:21:17 PM »
I understand  the air is expanding in the buckets from the loss of pressure as it enters the water from where it started from.  I can also see how it expands more and more as it gets closer to the top due to less water pressure.  What I don't follow is when it reaches the top and encounters the original air pressure which moved it through the pipe at the start,  why it doesn't go back to its original pressure after it is released from the water back into the air pocket and so keep the air motion going.   In the enclosed environment I thought all things were constant.  The water is the same amount and the air is the same amount.  So does the water absorb the air like in carbonation?    What stops the air from re-attaining its original pressure?    If it is coming out of the water what stops it from going back through again?  I hear your saying there are expenditures/losses due to the water travel.  But I am just not getting that part. 

Ok, so if you say it will eventually stop flowing I have come to trust your knowledge.  Also all the others who have contributed in this forum.   And we're done with this..  So how about I go in another direction.  I appreciate you letting me bounce these ideas off on you. 

 
    If you had three enclosed tanks set up as in the scan below, and I attached an air pump on the pipe inside Tank A  going to Tank B and forced an air supply through to  "move/drive/force/rotate", the buckets up on the conveyor inside tank B.  (bucket assembly not shown in the scan of course).   Then the air goes into tank C using the same air and moves the buckets up and then returns to tank A  and rotates Tank A's  conveyor all with the with the same air.  It looks like I could get a lot of drive power utilizing the same air.  I could just as easily add as many tank drives as I wanted using just one air supply.   This is the Rosch air drive system on steroids.   His system only used one bucket assembly.  Mine uses multiple assemblies using the same air flow.    If needed  I could draw in more air if I have any losses.  But the pressure for the air flowing from tank to tank would be maintained by the pump operation. 

As an addition to this separate idea, I think you could incorporate My first bucket idea.  I think the added enclosed system gains could give me the extra power I need to pull/draw the water to the buckets to achieve a functional system.    I know it is getting pretty elaborate.    But it's not the price of the rocket, it's the moment of touching the moon. 
   
I would think I would be able to gain enough extra energy/hp,  if I put several of these assemblies together to run the air and generator.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2017, 09:21:17 PM »
Sponsored links:




Online citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #82 on: August 07, 2017, 09:53:01 PM »
Let's look at this one stage at a time.  Starting with the air pressure going to tank C the air pressure has to be high enough to overcome the pressure of the water at the bottom of tank C.  Now the air pressure going into tank B has to be high enough to overcome the pressure of the water at the bottom of tank B AND the pressure of the water at the bottom of tank C.  The original supply of pressurized air has to be high enough to over come the pressure of the water at the bottom of tank A AND the pressure of the water at the bottom of the other two tanks.  You will need some pretty high pressure air to overcome all that.  And that high pressure air will take some considerable power to be produced.  I hope this helps your understanding about air and water pressures.

Carroll

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #83 on: August 07, 2017, 10:18:57 PM »
To add,,


The higher pressure of the air has the quantity of air filling up a smaller volume,, now volumes is one of those things that can get people in trouble,, 1 cubic foot of air is a volume,, 1 foot by 1 foot by 1 foot,, now much air as a *quantity* depends on the pressure and temperature of the air.


So,, the higher pressure air gets its pressure REDUCED on the way up as it expands, same quantity now taking up a larger volume, so the air at the top of the tank is not strong enough to enter into the bottom of the tank by itself,, then to increase the pressure of that air you need to reduce its volume per quantity,, aka compress the air.


Soon you will need to get into buoyancy,, from there you will find out that the "lift" is equal to certain things but it is easiest to say that it is equal to the "weight" of the missing water.


Online citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2017, 10:58:53 PM »
Since webby brought it up, here is an article about buoyancy control jackets that divers use when diving.  You will probably want to skip down to the operation section instead of reading about all the different kinds of buoyancy devices.  As you read about the operation you will understand this is not as simple as you might have thought.  It does take some time and practice to get good at using a BC.  Most new divers don't get really adept at it until after making several dives at a lot of different depths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy_compensator_(diving)

Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #84 on: August 07, 2017, 10:58:53 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Brutus

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2017, 02:01:15 AM »
Ok, I admit I am probably rubbing my own nose in it, but here is another thought for the air bucket tanks.
  Unless there are air systems that work like webby1's home made differential pump using air instead of water I don't know if  the enclosed tanks can justify all the pressure needed to be overcome.   Only a build or a lot of math could figure that out.  I looked on line and found nothing I could afford that would get me that kind of air supply.   citfta showed how I would need to overcome the equivalent of at least three tank depths combined  to reuse the air.  as she said,  That's a lot of pressure and expense. 

So, my next thought is to just reverse the original system  and use the rope pump to bring air down to the buckets for the lift. I can't see where there is much back pressure involved as the rope pump is dragging the air down through a pipe and allowing it to escape through the exhaust port at the bottom.   The rope pump is driven by the buckets.  Initial start up is by crank handle or motor or my original water generator buckets.   Forget the enclosed system. 

Is there any difference?  You can add more buckets if you want for more lift.  I no longer need a compressor.

I am not losing energy lifting weight as in the original design.  But there are losses to compensate for. 

Though personally,  I still think my original idea is better.  (Just can't throw my baby out with the bath water).   

Webby1;  I to get a timed out message.  And no redo on the message.

Offline Thaelin

  • TPU-Elite
  • Hero Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 909
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2017, 11:06:01 AM »
Hi Brutus:
   For what its worth, you still dared to walk down that path that they say cant be walked down. You dare to question and that is how answers are found. I just finished a design that I was so sure that would work. It didn't but I did get to see where my quest went wrong. It may never go but it did spawn a new avenue that may well have the answer.
   Keep to your decided path as many will tell you, "you are just wasting time and money". Well hey it is yours and your decision. Then there is the thrill of the chase which you can not afix a value.

thay


Online citfta

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 526
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2017, 11:59:32 AM »
Brutus,

I like your last idea.  I can't think of any reason why it might not work.  I would do away with the tube and flaps idea and just use the buckets and chain to drive an air compressor with the outlet at the bottom.  It will take some real power to turn the compressor fast enough to pump enough air to keep the buckets moving.  But the proper ratio of gears or pulleys might solve that problem.  It would be interesting to see how close it could come to being self powering.  Do you plan to build it?

Good Luck,
Carroll  (I am a guy by the way)

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2017, 05:06:02 PM »
:)


There is a compressor,, that is where the air bucket meets the water and releases the air.


A float is only a float so long as the water above the float can directly communicate with the water below the float,, not that this is much good for anything.
I have tried using a sealed float bucket when it has air, pop cans really with a bladder inside them, then after some distance of rise take that air that is still under pressure,,  and transfer it into a lower float bucket,, not so good but interesting.


Another small point is in understanding the displacement issue,, even if you view the surface as an infinite area and you are only displacing a small amount of fluid,, that displaced fluid still "lifts" the top.


All of the math and "laws" fail in one area,, they do not have the ability to ask a question, all they can do is help answer a question asked, so the real trick is in asking the correct question.


Look into strange things as well,, what happens to a boat propeller when it is worn out and creates a lot of cavitation??? there are a lot of dissolved gases in water,, the gas is already down there, you really only need to release it and keep it separate from the water,,


I have failed hundreds of times and with each failure I have learned something new to me,, that is learning.  Do not be afraid to fail because from failure comes knowledge.


http://www.bing.com/search?q=cavitation&pc=cosp&ptag=C31N1D100915AA794BFC089&form=CONBDF&conlogo=CT3210127


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavitation


Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #89 on: August 08, 2017, 05:22:01 PM »
Just as a starting point about the dissolved gases.


http://www.sspinc.com/products/SSP-M823_21_product.htm


Not saying that this could supply the needed gas for a lift,, but it is a thought :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #89 on: August 08, 2017, 05:22:01 PM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: