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Author Topic: Gravity powered water generator  (Read 15033 times)

Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2017, 05:48:04 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvK-jL3SzxQ
Each turn dumps into a bucket at the top and would need back flow valves to keep the water from flowing backwards.  In a screw pump you are not lifting the weight of the water you are expending the energy to turn the screw. 


Water always seeks its own level.  lets look at 1 wrap or turn of the screw.  Think of a clear bike inner tube that is 1/2 full of water.  The water from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock is held in place by the exact amount of water from 9 o'clock to 6 o'clock.   As the tube is rotated the water always stays in the bottom 1/2 of the tube at low speeds. 
As the tube is rotated clockwise the weight of the water from 6-9 o'clock pushes the weight of the water from 3-6 o'clock always staying level through each turn of the screw. 

Lets go big or go home.  Say each turn of the screw is 9 ft in diameter and 1 foot wide and it is 1/2 full of water.  About how much does the water way?

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2017, 05:48:04 AM »

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2017, 08:46:09 AM »
bw100007; 
      Yes I think I addressed that issue of back flow with a ball valve.  I just didn't put it in the drawing.  It is just a basic sketch.  I figured I would get more thoughts and decided to wait for further impute before doing a final draft.  I think I will go with a back ward curved, radial type impeller blade centrifugal pump.  And as you say, a one way valve, or else the water will just flow (equalize) down and out the open end of the tank. 
      I don't see how an Archimedes screw can be sealed good enough.  Well maybe, if I had it totally submerged and it only forced water through the pipe with a one way valve to stop the air sucking back in.  Possible.  But that is doing the same thing as the centrifugal pump but longer application. 
      I will use the power of the water buckets  to drive the water pump.  I can set up a system similar to  bicycle step up gearing to get proper rpm on the pump and so by doing that, get the needed  flow rate of water to refill the buckets. 
      I already addressed the leveling effect of water already.   I also did not put a one way valve on the air pump side in the sketch as yet either. 
      It is going to be difficult for me to draw up another total system sketch like my original starting design as I don't have,(as you can see), good skills in mechanical drafting.  But if no one has any further impute into my design and  or possible flaws, I will attempt to do one more complete revised sketch.  But, it will only be different in that I have  tried to enhance  the bucket line to maybe get more thrust with the addition of the extra tank.  Giving it an added air flow power enhancement.  AND, saving a lot of power by pumping the water from the top of the tank instead of the bottom, thus, saving a lot of wasteful energy with the water pump. 
       And I am dropping the rope pump assembly all together.  With the addition of the second tank It is not needed. 
       Still looking at the under water drag of the buckets.  By possibly using collapsible  buckets.  (Maybe leather bags).  To alleviate more of the under water drag.  I am trying to streamline it in every way I can. 
      The math is unknown in this system as yet.  There are to many things like water drag on the buckets.  How much actual lift you get from the air in the rising buckets. the loss due to gears and shafts,  the force needed to turn whatever generator you will be using, etc.  So I can only build the basic model and  see through experimentation how big and how many buckets it will require to run the system. 
       If I were as smart as  the majority of people on this site are,  I could probably get pretty close. 
     
     

Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2017, 02:52:01 PM »
Lets go big or go home.  Say each turn of the screw is 9 ft in diameter and 1 foot wide and it is 1/2 full of water.  About how much does the water way?


4.5^2×π=63.617251235×.5=31.808625618×62.477= 1987.307502711 lbs


PI*r^2*length,, now if you are talking about a 1 foot diameter tube on a 9 ft radius the number will be different,, but your 9 ft diameter disc 1 ft thick half full of water will weight aprox. 1987.3 lbs


Offline memoryman

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2017, 03:23:08 PM »
If you were as smart as  the majority of people on this site are, you would know that this cannot work.

Offline citfta

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2017, 06:37:37 PM »
Hi Brutus,

I didn't comment on your latest design because it is clear you refuse to believe that it will take just as much energy to get the water back to the top as you can get out of it falling.  And with the normal friction losses you will lose energy.  It doesn't really make any difference HOW you raise the water to the top it is still a losing situation.  You just can't beat gravity at it's own game.  But until you prove it to yourself I think the rest of us are wasting our time trying to convince you.  So I am done here.   Good luck.  I would love to see you prove all of us wrong but really don't think it will happen.

Carroll

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2017, 06:37:37 PM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #50 on: July 31, 2017, 09:07:48 PM »
Webby1  --- 9 ft diameter disc 1 ft thick half full of water will weight aprox. 1987.3 lbs, 12.7 lbs short of a ton of weight. 
This is the same number I  came up with.

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2017, 12:11:05 AM »
I think most of you have been very polite and extremely generous in your evaluations.  I appreciate that a lot.  I know disagreements can be trying.   Especially when you think your right.  Even if I am proven wrong, I think you all have helped me to get to a better model.   I believe if you get all the can'ts off the table you are left with the cans.  I don't  believe you have addressed all my points. 

FIRST, I am using air pressure at the top of the second tank to draw and to mostly maintain  the water level in the second tank at its constant level.  (I believe).  So basically I am not losing or using any power in that process.  The water naturally draws itself back up the second tank.  So as the water pump pulls water out into the buckets from the top of the second tank air pressure inside the top of the tank is pulling the water back in to maintain its pressure point.   I know water finds its equal level if you have two sides.  But this is a forced  level.  Using the air pressure to maintain the water level. 

SECOND, I have moved the water pump up to the top of the second tank to alleviate most of the losses from pumping the water up to the buckets.  And to accomplish the FIRST.    I just need to push water out of the tank in a mostly horizontal line.  So little power is needed there.  That is accomplished by using the power  derived from the gravitational force of water and air forcing the fall and rise of buckets to drive the whole assembly.   I just hook up a second driver to the main drive  to turn the water pump. ( As my rope pump was designed to do).   And all of these things are incorporated into the whole assembly power system.  So from the  START I have enough DRIVING POWER to make the whole assembly function self sufficiently.  At least initially.   

This is the point that every one does not seem to grasp.  I think that if I have enough starting weight, (water and Air), to drive the whole assembly with a little extra water flow that can bleed off, (spill over), or use if necessary,  I could maintain the needed force to keep it moving.  (Self Sufficient).  I think  an air pump driven by the water buckets is also a good idea.  So all of it is combined and driven by the water and air buckets. 

THIRD,  I haven't seen anyone address the fact that in this process I am also using the water and air assembly to drive the 5,000 watt generator, all the gears, everything.   Whether or not it is cog free or not does not matter in this set up.  Understand. The buckets drive the whole assembly.  That is the way it is designed.  So I have 5,000 watts of energy at my disposal to use any way I need to.    I can utilize some of  this electrical power to generate the air needed in the second tank to fill the air side buckets.  Or any other fine tuning necessities.   Or if it works like I think it should I would just get free energy from the generator.  Also, you can build this to any proportion you wish, smaller or bigger, depending upon your needs.

NOW, The only thing I have need of is for some one to tell me that what I have laid out is false and why. 
Will the water maintain its level in the second tank as I think it will or does something else cause the water not to draw back up if I maintain the air pressure?  Or same amount of air?   If you go into a cave air pocket you can lower the water by adding air and you can increase the water by letting air escape, right?  Same principle. 
 Would an air pressure regulator be good to use in this scenario?  Or would the air as I have stated maintain itself? 

I think I have addressed your concerns.  A water wheel turns because one side is heavier. This gives power to generate and utilize in what ever form you wish to use it.  If it is put into my scenario and the water is brought back up to a level as I do and re-used,  then why cant you make extra energy from natures natural forces?    Nature is actually  helping to over come some of its own laws in this assembly.   Well, not change any laws but using its laws to my advantage. 

As I said.  Initially, at the start, the whole assembly is running from the buckets with a little extra water over flow to add to the assembly if necessary for adjusting the losses inherent in the system.   Or a 5,000 watt generator to tap into if needed to  use in what ever extras are needed.   

None of this I have stated means anything if one fact is not a fact.  And I will concede it won't work as described.   And that is,  will the water pull itself back up into the second tank by using and maintaining  the air pressure at the top? 

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #51 on: August 01, 2017, 12:11:05 AM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #52 on: August 01, 2017, 12:40:06 AM »
Webby1 you have already scooped and screwed.  Screw a ton of water on a fulcrum[/size] 3 ft from center and lift it 10 inches just by rotating the cylinder and not lifting the weight how much power can you generate? you need A number of screws to get the best answer. 

Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #53 on: August 01, 2017, 12:45:15 AM »
measure the power at the fulcrum and not the drop to get the 3ft of leverage along with the ton of weight dropping.

Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2017, 07:29:31 AM »

Hi BW,

Here is a site with some information that may help on what it takes to turn the device.


There are other methods I suppose but this method works for spiral pumps.


http://lurkertech.com/water/pump/belcher/fish/


You may not be directly lifting the "weight" of the water but you may be dealing with the pressure created by the weight of the water pushing back against the other water and air and or screw faces,, so the site I posted deals with the pressure component, for a manometric  motor or pump.


Here is a pdf for an Archimedes screw pump style.,, it is a 2.3mb file
https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~crorres/screw/screw.pdf

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #54 on: August 01, 2017, 07:29:31 AM »
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Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #55 on: August 01, 2017, 04:24:29 PM »
I am not sure  how you see the air pressure raising the water level.  if you have a u shaped system with tanks a and b at the top and you withdraw air from tank b and add it to tank a the level in b will rise and tank a will fall.  If you use that rise in tank B for your buckets how do you get more water to replenish tank a?

Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #56 on: August 01, 2017, 04:51:35 PM »
I am not sure  how you see the air pressure raising the water level.
in a closed system the air pressure change will be the same change value as the change in the water levels,, the air pressure in tank B will not be the same as in tank A.
Quote
if you have a u shaped system with tanks a and b at the top and you withdraw air from tank b and add it to tank a the level in b will rise and tank a will fall.  If you use that rise in tank B for your buckets how do you get more water to replenish tank a?
or how do you get more water in tank B?


That water came from tank A via the U tube so the bucket would then need to pass its water back into tank A unless you were to use an external supply of water.


I guess I am not understanding your question so my answer may not be in line with what you are trying to discuss.

Offline bw100007

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2017, 04:57:46 PM »
lets try to simplify it.  If you have a teeter totter with a bucket at each side and 1 side is pre filled.  When that is allowed to drop it will create X amount of energy.  if you lift the water back to the top that will take = to or more energy than is gained from it dropping due to losses. 


The advantage of the screw drive to move the water uses the fact that water always wants to seek its own level.  Lets say we modify the screw drive i added in the video above a little so that is more in the shape of a spring. 1 full wrap at the left, a helical wrap to shift the water from left to right and a full circle wrap on the right.  Think of the wraps on the right and left as your buckets or reservoirs. as the screw is rotated the water exists the left bucket and enters the transfer helical wrap that moves the water from left to right and another turn moves it into the right bucket.  If you mount the whole pump on the teeter totter ( lever and fulcrum) Then the water moving from left to right could move the lever.  The energy input is not in lifting the water but in rotating the screw the water will seek its own level all the way through the screw and into the other end.  This does change with the greater the angle of the screw and the higher the lift.   The other advantage is the fact that the farther you move the water out on the lever there is a gain due to leverage. 1 bucket does the work of 3 at 3 ft when taken at the fulcrum and not the dropped end of the teeter totter.  Reverse the direction of the screw and the water moves back to the left and the full cycle is completed. No water is ever added or removed once it is pre-filled. 
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 07:14:32 PM by bw100007 »

Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2017, 05:23:35 PM »
O.K.


So not like this then.

Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2017, 05:27:04 PM »
Nor like this,, you have to imagine a second system on the left side instead of the counter balance.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2017, 05:27:04 PM »

 

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