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Author Topic: Gravity powered water generator  (Read 14442 times)

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2017, 09:40:57 PM »
webby1:
Thanks for the impute.   It would be better to build a smaller version to test before building a larger one.   It seems the only way to convince everyone, or myself, of its ability to perform as I see it.   I just can't come to grips with the idea that if you have an initial starting weight which will operate all the functions of the unit to its peak performance, ( That is the balance of driving power in a perfect no loss scenario),  why using the already generated power from the systems generator can not be utilized to maintain itself.  That is what I need to test.  I need get the generator to put out more power than is needed to continue the operation, (water flow), of the unit.   So I am thinking a wheel with enough water weight to initially operate the assembly and generator and then add a secondary electric pump powered by the units generator to add necessary extra water weight to counter losses.   Sounds easier than a Rosch size unit.   

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2017, 09:40:57 PM »

Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2017, 10:25:00 PM »
It will fail if for no other reason than the inefficiency of small scale motors and generators,, this is also why testing the concept is important.  These small scale units can be as low as 50% efficient.

You acknowledge that you will need to add the extra fill in water, so after the initial extra water is used,, that is allowed to fall and spin something, then the extra water cost to lift comes into play,, and that cost recycles with the unit doing its thing,, running 2 pumps is less efficient most often than running one larger pump.  What this means is the "extra" weight is only freely adding into the system for the first time it is used, after that the cost of the extra weight is being paid for by the system, so no free usage anymore.

Rambling a little :)
With the spiral pump,, I played a lot with that one,, as the water and air move towards the discharge wrap the air is compressed,, but the water is not, so the volume the air occupies is smaller than it started out with BUT the volume the water occupies is still the same, so you design the wraps so that the final volumes are the same and work it out for the pressure to volume change that the air goes through,, that being with the pressure the air needs to be at equaling what is needed for the weight of water in the head pipe (head pipe is the pipe going up that the water is in)
Another thing is that as the water pocket and air pocket in the head pipe move up, the weight of the water on the air goes down as each water packet on top of the lower water\air packets dumps out over the top of the head pipe,, so the air expands some on the way up.
The thing that fools some people with this is that the water goes up way higher,, but the quantity of the water is way less, the air fills in and acts like a spacer making the water per meter of head pipe lighter,, half filled with air then half the weight and half the pressure,, not sure if that makes sense,,,
The other thing is surface area,, the water gets a little lazy if the surface gets to large,, it will "pop" the air bubble sending the air up the pipe and the water down


Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2017, 11:29:11 PM »
webby1;  I also have spent time looking at many water delivery systems.  I don't know if you have looked at my scan #10  (scroll to second picture) on reply #7.  It shows a Wirtz modified inclined coil Pump.  It uses two coils into one delivery pipe.  I thought might be a possibility for my build.  I was undecided as to which might be better the rope pump which looks very effective or as does the Wirzt Pump.  I have also looked at rewiring possibilities on the Fisher/Paykel washing machine motors to alleviate the cogging effects if I were to use one of those for a small generator. It would reduce or eliminate the drag you get.   Have you had any experience in these areas?  I have  looked at your last reply and will give it consideration.  You and smOKy2 have the same outlook on my idea.  Something to think about.
       

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2017, 11:59:48 PM »

Well, here is the thing:
You say you will use a generator that can store energy to lift the water in addition to the already falling bucket of water.
If you use a generator, you must take into account that the kinetic energy in the falling bucket is not longer based on the gravitional acceleration of 9,81m/s/s. Because the generator will break the bucket down to less than this acceleration.


You can't both have 9,81m/s/s acceleration of the bucket AND produce energy from the generator at the same time. If you, in worst case scenario, short circuit the generator, it will be very hard to turn the shaft. This is because the magnetic field from the rotating magnets will produce an opposite and equal magnetic force in the windings of the stator. This opposite force will always be there from the tiniest load to heavy load. A tiny load isn't useful, A heavy load isn't useful, a suitable load isn't useful. The sum will not be greater than the generated power and the kinetic energy of the falling bucket.


The break effect will slow down the falling bucket, and can therefor not longer be able to deliver enough energy to lift the same amount of water up. You take energy from the falling bucket, and convert it to electricity. You cannot produce electric energy for free.


Many people fall into this misconception about generating energy from falling objects. You are about to do the same.


That does not mean you can't try. Learning by doing is the best way of learning. Build a small version. If it turns out to be over unity, it does not matter the size of the project. Forget about foundings. You can do this experiment with kitchen equipment and a small electric toy motor.


Have you ever considered that, if over unity existed, there must be some place in the universe this is happening by chance? Maybe everywhere? Have you any thought about how this will end up after 14 billion years of evolution? The entire universe with the present known extent might be a trementous black hole due to the exponentially increased energy and mass from its birth till now.


Good luck.


Br. Vidar





Vidar;  I address your concerns in reply # 7.  smOKy2 also said the same thing as you and suggested I build it to prove it.  This is what I would like to to but it takes funding which I lack.  This is why I have started a Go Fund Me campaign.  I still believe if you take the electricity generated by the initial starting weight to the generator you can supplement enough extra water flow to sustain the motion indefinitely and still have extra power to use for whatever.  I realize the losses from the system would eventually make the system come to a halt, but if you utilize the power generated to sustain it through an additional water pump, it should be perpetual and have extra power.


Offline lancaIV

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2017, 07:49:45 PM »
Yesterday I reed about the potential energy from 1000 Lt./1 cbm of water
falling from 100 meters height : 0,27 KWh 

How much is to spent energetically( inclusive mechanical-technical losts)to bring this quantity to this high level ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2017, 07:49:45 PM »
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Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2017, 08:42:08 PM »
Low-Q:   

I Did not say I was going to store the energy (as in Batteries)  but I could.  I would use the power directly for an extra (supplemental) water supply.  Force is what is driving the assembly (gravitational, or what ever you want to call it).  I keep saying I am starting with a set weight (in the water bucket conveyor system) already supplied within the unit at start up which will completely drive the assembly and the generator to its full output ability.  That means it is rolling along at the speed designed to run everything including the generator at the speed necessary to get the desired output power from the generator.   Now the only problem left is to supply enough extra water weight to "maintain" this same output. 
There are many companies out there now which have eradicated the cogging effect so as to allow the system to work very efficiently.  I can buy right now any number of out puts (5,000, !0,000, 30,000 Watt generators with little to zero cogging effect.  This is accomplished with split rotors and 18 phase wiring.  Not to sell any products but here is a company for you to look at for reference.  http://www.ftcinnovations.com/StarPower/  Also one with smaller generators is http://www.rockyhydro.com/Generators.php.   I have seen other companies selling no cogging generators also.  So if I have no drag on the unit other than the inherent assembly processes like water pulley, generator  and step up gears which have already been set in motion,  I see no hindrance to being able to generate enough power to supply the additional flow of water to maintain the assembly and have extra power left over.    I can't imagine having a 5.000 watt generator  worth of power and not being able to pump as much water as I could possibly need at my disposal.   You can even rewire Fisher and Paykel washing machine motors to a little or no cogging effect generator with 7 phase rewiring.  Great for wind mills or water wheel adaptations.    I know of one person who has designed multiple inline generators into a long pipe from a water tower.  It is a fascinating idea.  http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/20152-tanked-water-free-electricity-complete-home-generation.html?s=1860c79cfb6e8bb4ae27d56342965599.   So there is evidence in working models of gravity being utilized appropriately to gain power.   It is called assisted gravitational force.   There are additional schematics made by senior member thx1138 which enhance and give greater understanding to the idea at the same posting.  Worth a look. 
  As a side bar I also came up with another  concept utilizing ASSISTED  magnetic power to generate multiple magnetic generators from one power source.   If your interested.  http://overunity.com/16058/assisted-magnetic-generator/new/#new.   With the advancement of the no cogging generators this idea has greater working possibilities.

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2017, 09:17:02 PM »
Lanca IV:  Ask Some one like Low-Q or Other brainy people.  I missed that class.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2017, 09:17:02 PM »
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Offline memoryman

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2017, 10:30:12 PM »
0.272 kWh is correct. Since gravity is conservative, 0.272 kWh is needed to return the water to 100m.

Online citfta

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2017, 10:43:20 PM »
Brutus, I think you are overlooking something here.  You may be thinking that you only have to raise enough water to the top to fill the top bucket or container.  But at the same time you have to have going up some more water to fill the next bucket  and the next bucket.  So you have to have just as much water being lifted as is going down or you will soon run out of water.  In a perfect system with no losses you still will need just as much power to raise the water back up as you got from it on the way down.  I was a volunteer firefighter for 26 years and I know it takes a lot of power to raise water against gravity.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2017, 11:36:52 PM »

Potential energy of 1000kg at 100 meter hight is exactly 982000 Joule.
Hence, the kinetic energy at the moment that mass has dropped 100 meters is 982000 Joule.


So, you need 982000 Joule to lift 1000kg 100 meter up.


Loss / friction is an unknown variable which cannot be included.
So the answer should be:
More than 982000 Joule to lift it
Less than 982000 Joules in the fall.


Too bad one cannot get more Joules on the way down than the way up.


Vidar.

Yesterday I reed about the potential energy from 1000 Lt./1 cbm of water
falling from 100 meters height : 0,27 KWh 

How much is to spent energetically( inclusive mechanical-technical losts)to bring this quantity to this high level ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2017, 11:36:52 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2017, 12:49:19 AM »
Citfta:  I am not losing water or power from the lower buckets.  They are constant weight.  They are rotating on a conveyor which is being fed continuously from the rope pulley system to the top of the conveyor..  The conveyor is what runs everything, through the water weight in the buckets.   The  water is sent back  to the top after emptying buckets with the turning of the conveyor by the rope pump assembly.  This, as has been pointed out, will manifest in a certain loss due to the power consumption of the assembly in motion.  The power I am gaining through the generator, which  you will remember is generating now at peak output,  (I believe) is enough to supply an added water pump to supplement the conveyor bucket weight to keep the same processes working, negating the losses.  The thing every one does not seem to understand is I have a system which will run itself at the initial start up through weight in the water buckets from the conveyor.  I t will have enough weight to operate the water pulley system to draw water up to the top of the conveyor.  It will have enough weight to power the step up gears to gain the rpm's necessary to turn a generator to optimal speed.  All this is built in to the initial assembly with enough water weight to cause all of these processes to work simultaneously. (Initially).  Now  I have to deal only with the losses as a secondary function to keep the system moving. I have already explained I need not worry about cogging as we now have generators that do not have any or at least very little cogging (or Drag) from which I can choose.  This is  the point here.  I just need to allow enough extra water to be added to the conveyor bucket assembly to offset the inherent losses from the initial assembly functions.  If I can't do that little thing from a 5,000 watt generator supply I should just quite now.  It seems I am the only one that gets this concept.  Please look at the U-Tube video I think around the second posting which shows my water rope assembly by the guy who built and uses it at home in his back yard.  It is so cool to watch.  It's his idea.  And the Rosch video (which most claim is fake), But it shows my process in action, only I use water weight and he uses inefficient air power.  But the gear and generator assembly is close to what I had envisioned.
Even if I had to crank the system manually to get it started, that would be nothing big.  Once rolling it would be self sufficient. 
 Maybe I should just abandon the whole rope pump assembly and concentrate on just a pump motor supplied by the power of the generator.  Just crank  handle it started initially.   Then I could adjust it to fill as needed.   Something to think about. 
Thank You for your service Sir. 

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2017, 09:50:59 AM »
Brutus,


What is the difference in lifting the required amout of water via buckets or other methods?
You must lift the same amount of water as the water you fill in the buckets.
This will result in a perfectly balanced system, like a seesaw with the same weight and location on each side of the seesaw. No matter how you position the seesaw it will remain stationary.


Vidar


Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2017, 07:16:09 PM »
Low-Q:    The idea is to find the most conservative approach you can to deliver the necessary extra energy which is being lost due to the units consumption of working energy.   If you can find a more conservative way of delivery to maintain the process, then great.  I have only listed a few as I have found them.  I'm sure you could come up with many more.  It is only a concept at this point.  This is just my vision of how it could work.  Like I said in the last post, I could just eliminate the water wheel pump and install a regular water pump with the required amount of flow to fill as needed and install an adjustable output method to control it all.   All powered by the units generator.  The conveyor is the initial power source.  It must maintain a required amount of weight to allow the unit to function.    The required driving force (weight) is the only non-negotiable part of this. 
 I have even thought of using an impeller, like is used in water craft only bigger.   It starts big at the bottom and funnels into smaller and smaller channels till it gets to center pipe and then up to the top  for release into buckets.   Looks similar to an enclosed washing machine agitator but is more elongated in its impute channels and is spun by the power of the buckets. It has breakers on the sides of the water tank to prevent water from spinning in the tank.   Like I said there are as many ideas as there are people.  If you can make a better widget please do.  I'd love to hear about it. 
I could even put a weight on it to manually drive the extra pump.  But, I don't want to have to resort to anything manual.  I want a self sustaining unit.
Your see saw idea is not taking into consideration the losses.  The unit is not stationary.  Motion requires energy.  Someone has to push in order to move the see saw.  So energy is used.  You have to feed the people in order to have them push the see saw into motion.  Thus added energy to accomplish and maintain the motion. 

Offline memoryman

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2017, 07:42:28 PM »
Brurus, I suggest you learn what is meant by 'conservative system'.
The path you take in such a system is irrelevant, as is the method of moving the mass.


Offline lancaIV

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2017, 09:39:57 PM »
Brurus, I suggest you learn what is meant by 'conservative system'.
The path you take in such a system is irrelevant, as is the method of moving the mass.
I do not think so !

Brutus("you,too ?" Julius Gaius Caesar) is not interested in a kinetical engine,
he wants to convert force (potential,gravitational)power to electrical power.

How get the electron gas (= Plasma,electricity) stimulated to reach a total system OU break-even !?

C.O.P.>1 but the generator ever <1 : ergo thermo/kineto-dynamic cycle

the syphon-principle is hereby included,if water/liquid is the intermittent medium.

BTW,Brutus,
what do you think about the Karpenko/Marukhine ram pump generator ?
Working efficiency data ? Analysis object !
They only worked out the analytical results from an other russian academical scientist. Theorem to practizising

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2017, 09:39:57 PM »

 

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