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Author Topic: Gravity powered water generator  (Read 13117 times)

Offline Brutus

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Gravity powered water generator
« on: September 09, 2015, 12:15:00 AM »
Hey;   I have tried to put together a system which, I think, will run itself,  is cheap and easy to assemble. I would like some usful feed back.  It is based on  three combined systems.  The first is an elongated conveyor bucket assembly which is fed water at the top from a rope pump assembly and is all connected to a step up array of gears which will increase the rotation allowing enough rpm's and torque to power the rope pump and the generator at the end.    I know there are people who have similar ideas but this one is a bit different and combines ideas from many others.  I am only looking to help get to a free energy supply for all.  If any wants to use this idea feel free.    I don't know enough of mathmatics to figure the needed weight of the water in the buckets to generate the force needed to run the gears and the generator.  I thought at say five gallons per bucket and having say ten buckets filled with water would give me around 400 lbs of downward force.    Seems like that would drive all the gears and generator.  But help in that area would be appreciated.  I have enclosed a file showing the assembly for anyone wanting to see the full assembly.   I just drew up a fair rendition as I have little knowledge in drawing.  It is shown without the framing needed to better see the process.    I think bigger buckets and or more buckets to get to the needed driving force should not be a problem.  All the assembly needs is enough driving force to turn the rope pump and say a 5 to 8kw generator and you have enough power to run your home.    Also scan 7 is a first draft and a more detailed view of the rope pump assembly.

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Gravity powered water generator
« on: September 09, 2015, 12:15:00 AM »

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2015, 07:26:52 PM »
I would like to say I am grateful to all the people who have helped me by puting their ideas out there for others to see and use.  Like the rope pump comes from an idea By Paul Crites over on u-tube.  Who made this great rope pump to water his back yard aquaponic garden.  The step up gear assembly has been used several ways and times in history and, the conveyor has a long history, also.   All these ideas have many inventors  showing many different approaches.  It is up to all of us to use  these and new ideas to enhance our situation for the betterment of all.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Kbj9Bd-JDY&feature=youtu.be  This is Pauls U-tube video showing how well the rope pump works and how little energy is needed to run it.  So it fits well with my generator assembly.

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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2015, 05:44:21 AM »
these are the elements of concern: 

 the amount of water that falls into the buckets, at a certain height, over an amount of time.
   say it takes 4 seconds to fill a bucket.

Then, every 4 seconds you will have (X) amount of energy available from your bucket generator system.
      and (X) = height (in meters) of bucket when filled x weight (in kilograms) of a filled bucket x 9.8 m/s/s
Your answer will be in Joules, which you can then convert Joules to watts, and multiply by 900 to get the value in KW/hrs of electricity.
This is the most energy you can possibly attain using the most efficient generator man hasn't invented yet.

The other element is the amount of water being pumped by the rope-pump, to a certain height, over an amount of time.
these numbers should look a lot like the first element.
and using the most efficient water pumps mankind hasn't invented yet, it will require exactly the same amount of energy
as you will attain from the generator, using said amount of water.

the other mechanisms, gearing, and whatnot, will just further reduce efficiency and reduce the energy output of the system.
there is not any value excess to generate electricity for your house.

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2015, 04:05:07 PM »
Yes . I agree if I only had one bucket to work with.  But, I have multiple buckets which can be filled prior to filling the last one going around which gives me a larger force that can be maintained by the pump.  You have a point in that loss is a factor.  So, I could from time to time add extra water manually to supplement the pump.  But at say ten or more filled buckets  of force used to fill only one bucket there, you would think , must be some extra power to use on the generator.  Even with transfer losses.  Thank you for the reply.  At least now I have some math with which to use.  Will work on it. 


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 06:50:00 AM »
Yes . I agree if I only had one bucket to work with.  But, I have multiple buckets which can be filled prior to filling the last one going around which gives me a larger force that can be maintained by the pump.  You have a point in that loss is a factor.  So, I could from time to time add extra water manually to supplement the pump.  But at say ten or more filled buckets  of force used to fill only one bucket there, you would think , must be some extra power to use on the generator.  Even with transfer losses.  Thank you for the reply.  At least now I have some math with which to use.  Will work on it.

you can simply multiply the math by the number of buckets. Adding water manually, the "energy" you expend is equal to the mass of the water times the height of the bucket times gravity. this is your initial input energy for each bucket.

assuming the pump can keep up with the water flow in the time it takes all of your manually filled buckets to reach the bottom, then the system could sustain itself for some number of cycles until the manually inserted energy is dissipated.

any amount of energy you extract for other purposes (generator, machinery), will have to be supplemented manually.
you could do away with the water all together, and turn a hand-crank on your generator.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 06:50:00 AM »
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Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 10:47:16 PM »
I am not disputing your analysis.   I will have to work on that a while.   It looks like sound science.  By the way I thank you for the extra math assist.  But just for simplification your saying that if I start with say 1.000 lbs of force and if it takes  100 lbs. of that force to run a water rope to maintain the filling of the  top bucket in time for the next buckets approach and, say fifty lbs. to run the gears and whatever else is needed to run the generator that I will never have enough energy to keep the assembly running. And no amount of starting weight would matter.   I can follow how  you're saying, if the assembly is maintaining a consistant flow of water that always keeps the same amount of water in the buckets the assembly must run down  because your math says I have losses.  Ok , as it must,  then I still say supplement with something like  solar or wind to charge a battery to run, as an example, a secondary centifugal type pump for the extra water.  Or maybe a weighted geared pulley system with a tall pole like a flag pole to run an extra rope pump.  Several methods are available.  This would still simi- self maintain the process.  I still think it is a sound idea.  Just needs a little tweaking.  This was the reason I put the idea out here, to get others to discuss and give their thoughts and ideas to it.  To maybe find answers or simply to accept something as not workable.    Also, on an additional side note.   I would add an evaporative cooler type water supplier with cut off  float to maintain the water level in tank.    Another thought.  Would, if you do like some of the others here at Overunity are attempting to do, by extending the weight,( or in my case buckets),  out farther on the down (weighted) side, give you extra force by being farther out from center?  Maybe that would help.   
So, as I understand you,  I need to put in enough extra water(energy) to, at minimum, maintain or negate the losses of the system. I appreciate your feed back and if you have any suggestions as to how to make this work please do.   My wife says she's not cranking any handles. 

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2015, 07:20:51 AM »
lol, I don't blame her

here's the short answer:   two buckets, one tied to each end of a rope. strung over a pulley.
fill one up with more water and it will fall, raising the other.
fill them both equally, and they will balance like a scale.

this is because gravity imparts the same amount of force over the same distance on two equal masses.
now - consider that the water being pumped to the top is the same amount of water that is falling down with the buckets.
The force of gravity must be overcome by the pump. regardless of what type of pump is used, this is the energy required to lift that much water.
Energy is equal to the mass times the force of gravity times the height (E=mgh)
the water, once lifted, holds that same amount of potential energy (E=mgh). The same energy that can be regained by allowing it to fall.
By allowing an object (in this case a bucket of water) to fall through the gravitational field, you are converting the potential energy
     - into kinetic energy, but it is still the same energy. (E=mgh)
If you then use this kinetic energy to turn the pump rope, it will lift the same amount of water back to the top.
With zero losses in the system, the water falling will lift the same amount of water back up to the top.

The cumulative losses from every part of the system will deduct from this available kinetic energy. Most of this will be frictional heat loss.
but it will be visible from the very first test model you assemble. The amount of water pumped back up to the top will be slightly less then it was the first cycle
and even less the 3rd or 4th cycles.

I recommend building a test rig. the math scales up perfectly from the tiny to the very large, with little variances below the 10 meter height.


if you elongate one side of the bucket chain, or use some odd-shaped elliptical track, or otherwise alter the distance from the weight to the axis of rotation
with the intent to increase leverage or torque.........
You are overlooking one very important factor - by changing the track the buckets ride on, you are also changing the distance traveled, and the time it takes to do so.



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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2015, 07:20:51 AM »
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Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2015, 12:29:55 AM »
OK,  I get that the assembly as shown will not run itself due to the losses inherent in the system.  My argument still is that if I have enough water weight in the buckets "initially" to run the entire assembly, including the generator," before" water is added to sustain its motion, then, it seems to me, I just need to continue the addition, into the assembly,  of enough water to keep the same weight being used as at the first.  Which should, as I see it, continue the operation as began.  I now know, thanks to your impute, that this additional maintaining weight MUST be from an outside source.  So my thought is this.  If I have a 5kw generator being driven by the initial weight of the assembly then why could I not use the  already available generated power and tap it to run an additional pump system?  Surely there are pumps that can run a sufficient enough supply of needed extra water to keep the system sustainable.   Like you said, I need to build it to see the results you are talking about.  It just seems feasible.  I saw on U-tube the Wilkinson assembly of a 45 lb. weight on a pulley driving a step up assembly of bicycle sprockets he could use to run at the speed needed to operate a generator.    I know 45lbs. only ran the step up sprockets but the idea there that the losses to run the sprockets were not that drastic.  Only the weight needed to run the generator would be a large factor.   My beginning need , when I started this posting, was to find out how much weight it would take to turn a 5 or 8kw generator through a step up array of gears.  This was what I would necessarily need to know to even begin to build the assembly. That is with out trial and error.  To equate the needed weight to the horse power needed to turn the generator at running speed.  Say 750 or 1500 rpm or whatever was needed for that particular model.  This not being a simple equation due to the several small to large and large to small gears in the step up assembly. To reiterate, the assembly, with the addition of a secondary pump system, in my opinion , should work as depicted.  As long as it maintains the initial water force which drives it.   I thank you for your interest and analysis.  You have obvious greater knowledge than I and I respect that.  There is also much truth in your comments.   This will give others who read these posts a more complete and better understanding of the rational, science and mathematics involved.  Which was one of my main purposes.  Now they can make up their own minds and make a more reasoned judgment call.   But, I have picked the apple and want to see how it tastes.  Worms or not.
       I found what one could use as an idea for the second pump.   This is already patented but the idea is similar.  Just add a second set of buckets aligned with the original ones to double the weight or adjust flow to need.  Also a couple of ideas for other pumps.  There are many to choose from.   
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 04:00:15 AM by Brutus »

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2015, 08:48:27 PM »
To those who are looking at this as a possible project.  I want to add a few comments.  I have thought about how to minimize the guess work of how many and how big the  buckets would be have to be to achieve the "initial" weight to drive the assembly (how many gallons per bucket times number of buckets = needed total  starting weight).  I suggest building the step-up assembly and installing the  generator first and then hooking up a temporary drive cable pulley system to it.   Such as the U-tube( Wilkinson generator)  model. This temporary pulley system will be used so that you can add, in graduations, more and more weight to the pulley to find out how much weight will be needed to run the complete assembly.  This way you can start the build of the bucket conveyor with a more acurate number.  As an example, if you use a five gallon bucket at 8.34 lbs. per gallon then each bucket will have 41.7 lbs. of water weight.   As  there are many generators to choose from, it has to be that you need to start this way in order to find the proper weight to run that particular generator at the speed needed with the step up assembly and the adjustible volume rope pump combination.  The weight you need is going to be at best (Approximate).  If you look at the large Rosch generator you can see a basic construction idea already built for the conveyor, the step-up gears and a generator.  His design pumps air into the buckets from the bottom.   Mine pumps water into the buckets at the top using a rope pump and, thanks to smOKy2's imput, I have added a necessary supplemental water pump run by the generator.  On looking back at previous post I don't think you need to add a second bucket assembly just leave room in initial buckets for more water coming in from the secondary pump to maintain weight.    I have looked at many different conveyor designs and  would suggest you also look closely at them.  I see a lot of weight in the buckets and just chains links with small hook up attachments like on light weight applications may not be appropriate.  I am thinking an elongated chain  system would work better as it has a greater holding ability.  Just depends on how larger you plan on going with your unit.  Maybe just a conveyor belt with buckets attached might be good also.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23qGQlcDLtI (Wilkinson idea).   http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Thrust_Kinetic_Generator_by_Rosch_Innovations_AG  ( assembly possibility)

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 08:49:16 PM »
I am seeking funding to build this device so If your interested in helping further this idea to completion I would be very grateful for any help given in this regard.  I have started a Go Fund Me Campaign to help accomplish this at this location. Thank you for your help.  https://www.gofundme.com/dashboard-gravity-powered-water-generator-share-getpanel-pan   

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2017, 08:49:16 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2017, 11:49:47 AM »
Hi Brutus,


You are essentially lifting the amount of water that is required to fill a bucket. The bucket with water and the water pumped up into it, is the same water.
This idea is like expecting a bucket of water move up and down without involving external energy, and in addition expect that you need less energy to lift that amout of water than the gained potential energy on the top. It will not work. The force of gravity is the same on the way up as the way down.


Vidar

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2017, 12:41:59 PM »
More or less twenty years before I reed about this " gravity powered water (wheel) generator"

https://www.google.com/patents/DE4304132A1?cl=en&hl=de
then I did the investment calculation, more/less : 2000 Euros/KW "engine" costs( no profit) by later mass production ,
( only the electric low rpm generator each KW 1000 Euros ).

Does it works ? I heared from his sister (he died several years before my talk with her)that 1 prototype has been constructed and explored in the western Germany for a mine exploration.

Question : a. believe/trust/testing ? b.price/cost per KW ?

For an artist his work is free from calculation,for the power industry the main point is : costs/costs/costs



                                   Is a perpetuum revolving machine that worth ?
                           The ROSCH AKW is not cheaper,in the 10 KW range (without mobility advance)


Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2017, 07:40:04 PM »
Vidar;  I address your concerns in reply # 7.  smOKy2 also said the same thing as you and suggested I build it to prove it.  This is what I would like to to but it takes funding which I lack.  This is why I have started a Go Fund Me campaign.  I still believe if you take the electricity generated by the initial starting weight to the generator you can supplement enough extra water flow to sustain the motion indefinitely and still have extra power to use for whatever.  I realize the losses from the system would eventually make the system come to a halt, but if you utilize the power generated to sustain it through an additional water pump, it should be perpetual and have extra power. 

Offline Brutus

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2017, 08:12:26 PM »
LancaIV;   The difference between the Rosch unit and mine is the way the weight is used to generate power.  Rosch uses air to lift containers in a water medium to turn its generator.  This is a very wasteful idea.  They need a completely separate machine using great amounts of power to generate air to run the conveyor.  Mine uses only an initial starting weight  and an additional supplemental power supply which is gained from the generator of the unit itself to add more water through the addition of a secondary pump to turn the water  bucket conveyor which should keep it moving. Using gravity to drive the conveyor is  much more efficient.  I only need to add an additional amount of water flow to the initial starting weight to over ride the inherent losses.   


Offline webby1

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2017, 08:22:43 PM »
This is what I would like to to but it takes funding which I lack.

You do not need to build the complete system to test,, a bicycle wheel some string and a bunch of cups is all you need,,  don't bother with a generator,, just have it lift the water back up.  You will find that you can lift almost all of the water that you need,, it will tease you.  Learn to use the math you need for your idea,, this costs no money if you use a spreadsheet program and the internet to flesh out your ideas,, and the changes you will come up with.

The idea is to test the concept before all of the expense of a real build is incurred.

The system as you have described,, I never got it to work,, and if you are going to play with a spiral pump,, well it needs to be designed for the use,, then it can achieve a very high efficiency,, but less than 100%.
Displacement pumps with repositioned valves can also achieve a fairly high efficiency,, but less than 100%.

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Re: Gravity powered water generator
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2017, 08:22:43 PM »

 

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