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Author Topic: Simoscopy  (Read 25962 times)

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2016, 10:28:40 PM »
Well,, so much for the law of conservation of momentum :)

I have one that is spinning down very nicely,, and the springs can only hold so much,, so I will see how long it takes until the system reaches a stable rate of rotation.

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2016, 10:28:40 PM »

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2016, 11:42:42 PM »
Here is a pic of the rotation graph,, you can see the slow down.

The sim ran out of space so it stopped at this point,, I have it running from this point and it is still slowing down.

With the system I am using the springs are taking from gravity and then applying themselves against gravity,, if you will,, so the springs are burning up the momentum by means of a mechanical force phase shift,, I think anyway,, well that makes sense to me anyway.

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Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2016, 10:32:08 PM »
I have a wheel, on that wheel are levers, 2 sets of springs and  some weights.  One set of springs are a constant on, constant force, the other set of springs are constant force but pulsed on for a short time.  All connected to and spinning with the wheel.

This wheel is laying flat,, so no gravity.

As the wheel accelerates itself from the input pulse I need to increase the pulse force to make it spin faster,, so I think I am using the CF\CP of the weights to "push" against to spin up the wheel.

When the system is free to move,, not pinned to the background,, it does not move around, it pretty much stays in place.

Right now it is running with a 500Nm torque to slow it down and the weights are shifted out and are not being moved by the input pulse,, I am waiting to see how much it slows down and allows the input to start working again, and then if the input pulse is enough to keep it spinning against the resistance,, and then of course how much energy it takes to do that,, I am assuming it will be a loss but it is fun :)

and no errors from the sim either,, this one is very robust so far!

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2016, 12:19:45 AM »
This is slow,, slow computer doing the rendering,,

But,, not knowing the total mass of the system,, it is loosing about 1 degree per second per second of rotation,, so in the sim time it has gone from 1195 degrees per second down to 1185 degrees per second in 10 seconds.

No spring action yet from the input so it still needs to slow down more,, maybe more than the 500Nm of torque should be used,, but I will let it just run down the way it is,,


Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2016, 12:26:03 AM »
The server just crashed,, darn it anyway,,,

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2016, 12:26:03 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2016, 06:49:58 AM »
So,,

With several "runs" that I have tried it seems like 33% is about what the system does for conversion of input energy from the springs to torque out.

If I let it spin up to fast it starts to break the pins connecting the levers,, so I have been keeping it at kind of low speeds.

With that,, if I increase the two spring force values the system will change its rate of rotation with the load against it until the input springs cost is about 3 times the output,, so I can make it spin faster or slower but so far it seems to stick with the 33%.

Also if I adjust things to fast,, or too much at one time,, the system goes rather erratic and takes a while to settle down.

This is kind of fun being able to spin a disc up without pushing on anything outside of the system,, well there is the axle and arm holding that, but when let run free they don't move around,, Hmm,, I have not tried to spin it up faster while running free,, it does move a little bit and I am using the background for the reference to fire the spring pulse,, the grid that is.

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2016, 05:43:19 PM »
My latest tweak with gravity turned on is very interesting,, and I think I have found where  the missing input has gone,, it is cycling within the system,, that is there is a speed up and slow down of rotation,, while it is speeding up there is used input energy,, while it is slowing down it is giving that back to the springs, compressing them while they are under a force to expand.

It does appear to be very dynamic,, and needs to be adjusted better than where I have it,, that will take time since it takes a long time to render and it takes time to settle down into a rhythm.

Both the laptop and the server are providing the same results,, the laptop is way slower than the server however,, it is very old :)

P.S. I am running it with a load of 150Nm

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2016, 05:43:19 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2016, 09:44:58 PM »
Looking at the power of one of the input springs and the rate of rotation it looks like there is 1\3 of the power that is recovered to 2\3 the power that is spent,, not that that means anything but if the output is 1\3 the input then that would make it all a net zero,, which it must be or else there is a problem,,

This power split goes along with the change in rate of rotation,, so while it is accelerating it is using showing the 2\3 and while it is decelerating it is giving the 1\3,, and then there is the 1\3 output.

These are not crunched numbers,, just looking at the graphs

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2016, 08:01:36 AM »
This is very strange,, not something I would EVER expect,,

I have been tweaking with things and the wheel has slowed down with all the changes,, I just keep running it from where I started,, you know making changes and seeing what happens,,

well I had it almost at the net zero value,, that is I was putting in just a little more than I was taking out but the wheel had slowed down,, so I changed the output torque from -860Nm to 430Nm,, speed it back up right??? not so fast,, when the spring pulse is on it slows down the wheel while I am trying to speed it up,, strange behavior.

Right now I have 12m of spring force applied at -450N K,, not Kx,, per revolution, that force SHOULD be in assistance to the 430Nm  of torque but the wheel has stalled out at 60 Degrees\s.

This thing sure is dynamic ??

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2016, 07:24:50 PM »
Now that I have played with it more,, I think I can now expect this behavior,, well sort of, I mean I do not find it so unexpected.

I have been trying to normalize the rotation, make it constant.

If I try and accelerate the system by accelerating the wheel,, the system will try and slow the wheel down.  Within reason,, if I try and slow the system down by slowing down the wheel the system then tries to accelerate the wheel.

My applied input has a range where it accelerates the system and wheel and a range where it decelerates the system and takes back some of the input.  When I augment that moment where it is decelerating,, the system seems to respond by accelerating the wheel.

Also I need to let things settle down,, come into its own interaction with the forces at play,, so what I mean is I start it out at some RPM and apply the loads against it,, it will slow down and the interactions of when and where and how the moving parts move will find a balance point and bring the system back up to its starting RPM,, when it is quasi stable but below that point there is still some recovery happening within the drive springs,,

This could be a "program" error since it is doing the same thing on two different systems running the same program.

If it is a valid condition then I would say I am somewhat convinced that Besslers wheel worked.

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2016, 07:24:50 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2016, 06:57:20 PM »
This one is funny,, without gravity I am burning up about 30% of my input to maintain a small rotation with no other losses than the internal forces of the system.

The sim appears to be destroying energy :)  no heat cause there is no friction.  no air because I have it turned off and there is no gain in average rate of rotation.

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2016, 07:34:57 AM »
So,, force is not energy.

I have a sim of a closed system,, a wheel with levers arms and weights.

This wheel is operating in gravity and has no outside resistances affecting the rotation of this wheel or the movements of its parts.

I am not applying any other forces to take out what I am putting into the system.

The system rotates with a very nice oscillation maintaining the amplitude and frequency very nicely.

To keep this system rotating,, again with no outside added forces, no torques taken out or added in,, I am using 9060J per rotation.

I am picking up the weights and dropping them and keeping them within the confines of the wheel,, so same distance up as down.

Since force is not energy and all the potentials from the weights and gravity are conservative,,

Where is all that energy I am adding into the system going?

If I stop adding in the energy, the system slows down and stops, so it needs the energy added to continue.

Where is it going?

I have taken this same sim and set it up differently and had it run at close to 100% efficient in transferring the input to an output,, so I think the mechanics are in order.

It is not storing said input,, if I reduce that input lower it slows down and stops.
I am going to see how low I can get it,, right now it is at 300N to keep where it is,, 200N looks like it is slowing down,, it stopped at 200N

ETA: 250N for the spring constant seems to be the lowest it will go,, that is then 7550J being lost within the system.


Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2016, 08:02:29 AM »
At 250N on the drive springs and at the 7550J of input I CAN take out 200Nm,, 225Nm stops it.

If I use more drive spring force the RPM will go up,, not sure what those limits are but at 500N of input it averaged abut .2 degrees per second faster than with 300N and I would assume that I could also take out more torque.

Where does it go if I am not using it??

1414J is a fair amount LESS than 7550J

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2016, 06:17:40 PM »
If I try and take out any more the system comes to a stop.

I have 250Nm of torque as an output and you can see the dampers max tension and there distance is the same as the input springs which run at 400N constant,, so 4 input springs and 4 dampers.

The distance is the 9.4 minus the 1.85 so 7.55m

Per input spring that is 3020J
Input per revolution then is 12080J

Torque out is ~1571J
Generous on the dampers :)
65N 490.75J
55N 415.25J
total per damper 906J
Total per revolution 3624J
Total out per revolution 5195J

Maybe my math is wrong?

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Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2016, 09:59:35 PM »
I had a secondary spring in the wrong place,, it was applying too much force since it was moving a further distance than the other springs that are not the input.

I moved it to the correct location and the 250Nm was no longer able to be moved,, it is back down to 225Nm.

Without even looking at the numbers again I would assume that this change will bring the efficiency back down to the 33% range.

I have put graphs on anything that could be measured by the springs,, even tho only the input springs are the ones that are being pulsed and therefor are the only input,, it is in turning them off while the spring is being collapsed that makes them an input and not passive.

I would have to say at this time that the system is irretrievably consuming 66% of the input energy,, with no output for that loss.

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #44 on: January 22, 2016, 09:59:35 PM »

 

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