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Author Topic: Simoscopy  (Read 20938 times)

Offline webby1

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Simoscopy
« on: August 29, 2015, 07:12:25 AM »
Simoscopy.

I have been playing with a simulation program, a 2D simulation program.

While having a conversation with my friend Mondrasek he politely pointed out that it is very easy to misinterpret what the sim shows.  He also mentioned the piece TK did on Scopeoscopy and how that demonstrated the right way of using a scope and how to better interpret what the readings mean,, or show,, and then he mentioned that it would be good if someone did a Simoscopy vid.

So, is there such a thing for simulation programs?

The one I am using, with how I have figured out how to use it so far, only gives me power values,, I think it can do Energy values and all that but all I can use directly right now is power.  I could dump the data file into a spreadsheet and then do a step by step evaluation,, but some runs are several thousand frames, up to 32K for the longest one I have had.

So I have this sim that has the input power less than the output power and am tempted to think that that means there is a gain, but that can not be correct, or it can be correct but not meaning that there is a gain in energy,,

So again,, has any one done a Simoscopy vid?

Or can those that are good with simulation programs provide good insight on what NOT to do to avoid misinterpreting the results as well as what one should do.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Simoscopy
« on: August 29, 2015, 07:12:25 AM »

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2015, 11:05:16 PM »
This is the torque graph from 2 identical runs on the sim with the only change being that I have one using the system and the other not,,

The curvy line is using the system,, the other is not.

Which one looks like it puts out more torque?

They both used the same input force over the same distance,, basically a 40:1 lever, and the damper, aka torque reading,, is taken from the pivot point for the 40 side lever.  They are connected through the system.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2015, 12:18:01 AM »
Try integrating those two curves (find the areas under the curves).

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2015, 12:40:16 AM »
Hi TK,

Actually I have not done that with that one,, most of the ones I have dumped the data file out and compared to the actual input costs are just under,,

FYI,, that is 9.72m for the 10N input force and 14.44 degrees of rotation,, down to horizontal.

I have one that is way better, ramping up to over 1000N-m using the same basic system and the same input :)

I make sure that I remember that this is a sim,, and as such is non-real.

If I could believe the sim,, then I have achieved a work gain,, but in reality that is not so likely :)

I think there is a way to use the program to do all that,, but I am just clutzing along with it having fun and trying to "see" some of the thoughts I have, and then trying to sim it up,, well that is a challenge and is actually kind of fun as well.


Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 03:12:28 PM »
:)

I am using 3 constant force springs.

I ran as long as the program would let me,, it has a limit,, then I cleared the data and kept running,, it takes a while to render,, but it looks like the power out from the rot-damper is going down.

This was an accident,, not planned,, the input that started it was spring 138,, 100N over about 7m,, maybe less but still a lot in and I am wondering how long it will run on that "charge".

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2015, 03:12:28 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2015, 03:20:48 PM »
here are the other two springs by themselves,, kind of hard to see them within the large one :)

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 07:57:06 PM »
Here are just the damper outputs for another 2 runs,, that is extending from the first run.

I am running the sim on another system and am having the same,, but not identical, results.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2015, 07:57:06 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2015, 07:39:07 AM »
the difference between energy and power is the "on time", or duty cycle
E = Pt
P = VI or V^2/R or RI^2

power is an instantaneous measurement, whereas energy is the amount of power consumed over time.



Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2015, 07:43:10 PM »
An asymmetrical mechanical force???

This is one full cycle,, down and then back up.

Interesting,, very interesting.

113 is a constant force.
56 is a constant force

The stroke on 56 is
3.8m @5N +- each way 5.53570839 degrees each way

113 stroke length is

0.0022925m @3300N each way

It is getting compressed on the way down,, the first part of the graphs,, and is making more torque out,, expanding on the second part and is making less torque out.

The lever is 40m,, so that would be 200N-m input


Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2015, 08:56:09 PM »
This is what it looks like if I manually change the constant force springs direction of force at the end of each direction of travel.

Now they look the same,, just upside down :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2015, 08:56:09 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2015, 08:44:45 PM »
Spring 18 is a constant force spring,, so K not Kx and is set to 1N + -

The peak from Zero is .7m,, so one full cycle is 1.4m

The rotation is from -4.57 to 0.96.

One half cycle,, :) is from -4.57 to 0.96 and back to -4.57,, the system auto flips direction of rotation with the same spring motion continuing,, so the spring force flip happens at -4.57 degrees.

I find it interesting that the output rate and level is not the same for a + spring compared to  - spring,, considering that they are the same spring within the same system moving the same distances.

There is that erratic,, well if I flip the spring just right,, and the slop within the system is just right,, I get that,, so it is an outlier and is thrown out :)

What is funny is that I was not expecting the auto flip part.

I was expecting the difference in output,, that is what I am trying to "build" to,, but not that it would go to the end point of travel and reverse its own direction while the spring continued on.

I was shooting for about ~5 degrees with an average of about ~5N-m,, I think I am close :)

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2015, 06:35:00 PM »
 small note,,

If you are using springs for an input,, like I am,, make sure they are set correctly for what you want them to do,,,

K or Kx,, makes a difference :)


Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2015, 05:06:45 PM »
A funny observation,,

I have been making sims of testbeds I have built and played with,, but unlike the real world the sim gives me errors.

My latest sim of a testbed behaves close to what I observed from my real testbed but I get an error from the sim, well all of them behave similar really.  What is more interesting in the latest sim is that when I leave out a pulley system or 4, the motions within the system accelerate and then I get the error,, with the pulley systems in place I get an error within like 7 frames.

So I get this "condition" from several sims of real testbeds I have built,, I find that funny :)

Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2015, 10:26:44 PM »
An interesting note,,

I am running WM2D on a server that is using W10 and running the program in compatibility mode,, I have a sim that when I ran it on that platform I got a system that accelerated using nothing but springs, levers and gravity.

I sent the file to a friend and when they ran it it did not accelerate but rather oscillated in direction of rotation,, as what would really be expected,, I also ran it on my laptop which is running Windows XP service pack 2 and had the same thing,, random oscillations and not a constant direction of rotation.

After looking at a few things I noticed that if I saved the file with some frames recorded that the center for a few of the weights had,, I guess,, shifted,, that is the pivots for those round weights was moved towards the center of the wheel with red lines attached.

I changed those pivots to rigid and now the sim does the same basic thing on the server version as it does elsewhere,,

However,, me being me :)  I took the second run file that I saved and made the pin changes,, this is with the system working in a constant direction of rotation, CCW, and the sim is doing, with the changes, the same thing it was doing without,, that is from the continued conditions of the messed up run 1,, so the wheel speeds up and slows down and the weights move up to a higher position and lower,, and at times the wheel is spinning faster and the weights are up higher than where they started.

I find it all interesting,, that the operating system could interfere with the  sim software in such a way.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline webby1

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Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2015, 12:25:29 AM »
Well then,,

IF I have excised the demons from the sim.

IF the sim can be trusted.

THEN and ONLY then,, I have a sim of a wheel that is self accelerating using nothing other than weights, levers, springs and gravity.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Simoscopy
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2015, 12:25:29 AM »

 

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