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Author Topic: The bearing motor  (Read 34974 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2015, 02:47:08 AM »
MH
I have made no mistake.

 It's more complicated than that and I believe the current has to flow through the cylindrical magnet itself for the magnet to spin.



Exactly. ;)

In Faradays experiments using a ring magnet, with the magnet stationary, running current through the radius of the disk causes the disk to turn. But it does not happen the other way around. ;) Because there was no current sent through the magnet. ;)

And, if the ring magnet is mounted to the disk axle, so the ring magnet is spinning with the disk, applying current to the disk only, the magnet and the disk will spin.  This shows that the field of the ring magnet is basically not spinning with the magnet. The paradox. ;)

So the only way to get the ring magnet to turn with current through a stationary disk, is to also have current in the magnet itself. Of which Faraday doesnt show that he tried this back then. So the current flowing through the magnet must somehow bind the magnets field to the magnet in a way that now the magnet will spin with current through the stationary disk. ;)

Mags

Mags

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #75 on: June 06, 2015, 02:47:08 AM »

Offline Tito L. Oracion

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #76 on: June 06, 2015, 09:13:16 AM »
wow that's amazing!!!!


it's like when the water is coming out of the hose, it produce a force like this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiE58Ri5axQ


and this one, it can make a rotation to it. ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPqVvThyL1A


so it follows whatever direction we want. maybe that's the reason why ac and dc are capable to it as a source.  ;)
successive push and successive twist. ;) 


just water flowing. hmmmm :D


toits :)

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Offline synchro1

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #77 on: June 06, 2015, 04:00:08 PM »
Touching electrodes to the magnet instantly shorts the current through the highly conductve material.

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #78 on: June 06, 2015, 08:39:15 PM »
Touching electrodes to the magnet instantly shorts the current through the highly conductve material.

Yep.  As I mentioned in the other thread where I show the magnet rolling on the foil with current applied, I tested a broken neo mag, and the mag material shows very low resistance, as I was wondering if the nickle coating was the current carrier in those experiments.

Below is a pic of another bearing I acquired from our mechanic where I work. It is new but didnt fit what it is suppose to.  As soon as I opened the box, the ball cage caught my eye. ???   Most ball bearing assys have these and I neglected to think about how they apply to the currents through the whole.  The other bearings I had shown earlier, in this pic also, have plastic cages to hold the needle bearings in place.  One of them I have a hard time getting current to flow from the outer to inner race.  Need to clean it out. Been sitting for some time.  The other I am working on a fixture to try and run the bearing without an axle, just a conductive plug to fit inside with a center pin contact for the inner race connection and just mount as shown in other examples with the other input connection there.


Mags


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #79 on: June 06, 2015, 09:10:16 PM »
Yep.  As I mentioned in the other thread where I show the magnet rolling on the foil with current applied, I tested a broken neo mag, and the mag material shows very low resistance, as I was wondering if the nickle coating was the current carrier in those experiments.

Below is a pic of another bearing I acquired from our mechanic where I work. It is new but didnt fit what it is suppose to.  As soon as I opened the box, the ball cage caught my eye. ???   Most ball bearing assys have these and I neglected to think about how they apply to the currents through the whole.  The other bearings I had shown earlier, in this pic also, have plastic cages to hold the needle bearings in place.  One of them I have a hard time getting current to flow from the outer to inner race.  Need to clean it out. Been sitting for some time.  The other I am working on a fixture to try and run the bearing without an axle, just a conductive plug to fit inside with a center pin contact for the inner race connection and just mount as shown in other examples with the other input connection there.


Mags

This will be interesting to see.  My guess is that it will not turn without the shaft, but, that is what testing is about...
we will see. 

Good luck.

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #79 on: June 06, 2015, 09:10:16 PM »
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Offline allcanadian

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #80 on: June 06, 2015, 09:27:43 PM »
@mags
Quote
And, if the ring magnet is mounted to the disk axle, so the ring magnet is spinning with the disk, applying current to the disk only, the magnet and the disk will spin.  This shows that the field of the ring magnet is basically not spinning with the magnet. The paradox. [/size]


I had time to do a few tests and confirm my initial thoughts. The wire on the side of the magnet does experience a force in the opposite direction to the magnet... equal and opposite as tinman described. The magnet or the wire may move however the field direction in the magnet is opposite to the field external to the magnet. Which explains why the conduction path through the magnet (magnet rotating) moves in the opposite direction to the wire rotating (wire rotates). A conducting washer on the pole of the magnet but insulated from it confirms the field direction reverses at the side of the magnet as it relates to the field at the pole which was also confirmed with a hall effect probe.


I think the problem here may be one of perception as the conductive path through the magnet from side to center is still under the influence of it's own internal magnetic field. A magnet consists of millions of smaller magnetized pieces thus the conductive path through the magnet must experience a force just like any other conductor however as I said the field direction in the magnet is opposite to that external to it.


I should also mention that I have done numerous tests which confirm the magnetic field around a magnet is in fact stationary and does not rotate with the magnet.



AC

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2015, 10:51:10 PM »
@mags

I had time to do a few tests and confirm my initial thoughts. The wire on the side of the magnet does experience a force in the opposite direction to the magnet... equal and opposite as tinman described. The magnet or the wire may move however the field direction in the magnet is opposite to the field external to the magnet. Which explains why the conduction path through the magnet (magnet rotating) moves in the opposite direction to the wire rotating (wire rotates). A conducting washer on the pole of the magnet but insulated from it confirms the field direction reverses at the side of the magnet as it relates to the field at the pole which was also confirmed with a hall effect probe.


I think the problem here may be one of perception as the conductive path through the magnet from side to center is still under the influence of it's own internal magnetic field. A magnet consists of millions of smaller magnetized pieces thus the conductive path through the magnet must experience a force just like any other conductor however as I said the field direction in the magnet is opposite to that external to it.


I should also mention that I have done numerous tests which confirm the magnetic field around a magnet is in fact stationary and does not rotate with the magnet.



AC

"I should also mention that I have done numerous tests which confirm the magnetic field around a magnet is in fact stationary and does not rotate with the magnet. "

Thats what basically kills the idea of actual field lines for me. Field lines are a convenient way to describe the path and the density, but that idea of actual lines would tend to indicate that all those little magnets in the material may have their own lines and would move or rotate with the rotation of the ring magnet. To me anyway. But they dont, just as you say. 

So lets say we have a disk mag set up so that it dangles from a thread, N up and S down and we set up a current carrying wire as if it were in one of these demonstrations with a AA batt, disk mag and a piece of copper wire, but we dont have any current running through the mag, just the wire, the mag will move as a whole, but it wont spin like the demonstrations weve seen. Only when the current flows through the radius of the mag, where the current carrying wire is making contact, will the mag spin on its axis.


So this also indicates to me that mutual induction doesnt have anything to do with actual fields cutting a conductor, but it is the field strength change, polarity and angle included to get the desired result, at the mutually induced conductor that activates the induction currents.

Mags

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #81 on: June 06, 2015, 10:51:10 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #82 on: June 06, 2015, 10:58:38 PM »
This will be interesting to see.  My guess is that it will not turn without the shaft, but, that is what testing is about...
we will see. 

Good luck.

Bill

its weird in a way.  When we look at the fields produced in each component of the bearing, we cant look at them as magnets in the normal way.  There are no end poles on any of the components. They all act like fields around a current carrying wire and the fields are just circular loop fields around the axis of current flow through each component.  This is where I lean towards the tilting of these circular rings when the balls rotate with current flowing through them, causing an offset that causes the thing to move in either direction when started by hand.

Mags

Offline allcanadian

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2015, 12:31:49 AM »
Hey mags
Quote
So lets say we have a disk mag set up so that it dangles from a thread, N up and S down and we set up a current carrying wire as if it were in one of these demonstrations with a AA batt, disk mag and a piece of copper wire, but we dont have any current running through the mag, just the wire, the mag will move as a whole, but it wont spin like the demonstrations weve seen. Only when the current flows through the radius of the mag, where the current carrying wire is making contact, will the mag spin on its axis.


I would agree, and when an external force is acting on the external field it seems to appear as a force translating to the field as a simple repulsion/attraction thus acts on the magnet as a whole which seems reasonable. However when the force is internal it may act on the stationary field perpendicular to it producing rotation.
Quote
So this also indicates to me that mutual induction doesnt have anything to do with actual fields cutting a conductor, but it is the field strength change, polarity and angle included to get the desired result, at the mutually induced conductor that activates the induction currents.


I also agree and this notion of "cutting" these imaginary field lines does not seem intuitive whatsoever however if one is going to believe in lines then cutting is really the only option isn't it?. Thus we have limited our options as to what we perceive can or cannot happen. The other option is the particle/field theory however then we must resort to infinite element analysis in which case everything get's really complicated really fast...it's a quagmire at best, lol.


I was thinking of a test which would prove the force/field issue one way or another... do you have any suggestions in this regard?. I mean if someone has a test they would like to confirm I have everything setup to confirm anyone's suspicions one way or another.


AC

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2015, 02:05:25 AM »
Hey mags

I would agree, and when an external force is acting on the external field it seems to appear as a force translating to the field as a simple repulsion/attraction thus acts on the magnet as a whole which seems reasonable. However when the force is internal it may act on the stationary field perpendicular to it producing rotation.

I also agree and this notion of "cutting" these imaginary field lines does not seem intuitive whatsoever however if one is going to believe in lines then cutting is really the only option isn't it?. Thus we have limited our options as to what we perceive can or cannot happen. The other option is the particle/field theory however then we must resort to infinite element analysis in which case everything get's really complicated really fast...it's a quagmire at best, lol.


I was thinking of a test which would prove the force/field issue one way or another... do you have any suggestions in this regard?. I mean if someone has a test they would like to confirm I have everything setup to confirm anyone's suspicions one way or another.


AC

"I also agree and this notion of "cutting" these imaginary field lines does not seem intuitive whatsoever however if one is going to believe in lines then cutting is really the only option isn't it?."

It is THE option that seems to work for what we know so far.  But just the idea that it is put into our minds that we should look at it as lines has me thinking what if there is more to it all if we find another way to look at it. ;)   


"I was thinking of a test which would prove the force/field issue one way or another... do you have any suggestions in this regard?. I mean if someone has a test they would like to confirm I have everything setup to confirm anyone's suspicions one way or another."

As in that the field seems independent of the spinning ring magnet?

Mags


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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2015, 02:05:25 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2015, 02:10:34 AM »
This will be interesting to see.  My guess is that it will not turn without the shaft, but, that is what testing is about...
we will see. 

Good luck.

Bill


Also, say we replace the ball bearings with just brass bushings style bearings. Would it still spin, and in either direction? If not, then I have to conclude that we need those rotating balls in the bearing to do their thing. ;D ;)

Mags

Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2015, 05:26:54 AM »
Guy's
No current need flow through the magnet in order for the magnet to spin. The opposite effect to this can be seen in the homopolar generator. Here we know that the magnets can be fixed or rotate with the disc,and a CEMF will still be produced when a load is applied to the output current.
There is a flaw in the way that the homopolar generator is set up,and this flaw is what causes the CEMF-->wonder if you guys can work out what it is. The force produced in the homopolar motor that causes rotation of the magnet or wire will give you the answer.

When a current is passed through a magnetic field,there is a clamping effect that takes place between the magnetic field and it's producer(the magnet).The same clamping effect can be seen in the homopolar generator between the copper disc,and the fixed magnet version. Only when a current is flowing through the disc ,dose this clamping effect take place between the disc and the fixed magnets. When a load is applied to the current output of the disc,a CEMF is produced between the disc and the fixed magnets. Only your frame of reference has decided that the magnets art spining,as your frame of reference is stationary with the magnets.

Now-what about when the magnets are rotating with the disc. Well this backs up my claim that an equal and opposite force between the wire and the magnet is there. Here we have a case where no current is flowing through the magnets,but the magnetic fields have clamped to the magnet,and the CEMF is now between the magnets field and the wire/brushes that the current is flowing through on the outer edge of the disc-->the homopolar motor effect.


Offline gravityblock

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2015, 07:30:12 AM »
Seems to have a lot of torque.  Its odd that current runs through one bearing opposite of the other but both drive the same direction.  Makes me think that the wires could be just connected the the ends of the axle and give it a spin.  Other than that, the balls rotating with current through them must be altering the fields they produce, setting up a continuous push pull field orientation.  But for it to be able to spin either direction regardless of the current direction is the puzzle.

Mags

It can spin in either direction since the polarity of the magnetic field reverses with a change in the current direction (there's no net change, so the force is in the same direction).  This is a universal motor where it runs on both AC and DC.


Gravock

Offline gravityblock

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2015, 07:57:15 AM »
Tinman:

So what is the reason for stating that it's not surprising that the motor runs the same way when you flip the polarity?  The reason is very simple.  For starters we know that the motor runs because of the Lorentz force.  That force vector is the crossproduct of the current flow with the external magnetic field.   We also know that in this case the current flow itself produces the external magnetic field.  So if you reverse the current flow, you also reverse the direction of the external magnetic field.  So it's like a double-negative and you end up with a force vector in the same direction when you flip the polarity of the applied voltage and do the cross-product.

MileHigh


Well said!


Gravock

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Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #89 on: June 07, 2015, 01:14:22 PM »

Well said!


Gravock

Quote
So what is the reason for stating that it's not surprising that the motor runs the same way when you flip the polarity?  The reason is very simple.  For starters we know that the motor runs because of the Lorentz force.  That force vector is the crossproduct of the current flow with the external magnetic field.   We also know that in this case the current flow itself produces the external magnetic field.  So if you reverse the current flow, you also reverse the direction of the external magnetic field.  So it's like a double-negative and you end up with a force vector in the same direction when you flip the polarity of the applied voltage and do the cross-product.

MileHigh

No,not well said,and this was MH comment before he knew or read all the details.
The motor will run in either direction REGARDLESS of weather it is supplied with an AC current or a DC current. So once we use a DC current,then MH explanation go's out the window.

I think it would be a good idea gravock if you read the whole thread,and understand what is going on here before making faulse presumptions.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #89 on: June 07, 2015, 01:14:22 PM »

 

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