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Author Topic: The bearing motor  (Read 35622 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2015, 07:01:46 PM »
Quote
I see you did what everyone else dose when i ask the question MH,your answer is just to quote the lorentz force without explaining why the lorentz force acts in only one direction. The lorentz force direction is an aplication,not an answer. It is just the same with the magnetic field-->we dont know what the magnetic force is-it just is.

What do you mean by "only acting in one direction?"  A force can only act in one direction.

It all stems from the fact that there is a force on a charged particle when it is moving in a magnetic field.  Here is a three video set explaining it all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdh2srqH57M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w41Zijsv46o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcVzfTAK8fk

The Lorentz force is an extrapolation of the analysis of the forces on moving charged particles because a stream of moving charged particles is the very definition of electric current.

The real issue is this:  Look at the geometry of the wire and look at the geometry of the magnetic field and then apply the Lorentz force equation to the particular setup and determine the outcome for the homopolar motor.  The homopolar motor and the silly spinning aquarium "vortex"  are easily explainable through understanding the Lorentz forces at play.

If you balk at this then it's just the same old pattern on your part where you refuse to accept something until you understand it.  Just put in the work to understand it and then apply it to the homopolar motor.  You should get to the point where you understand exactly how the homopolar motor works after examining the setup for a few minutes in your head.

If you get how the homopolar motor works then I challenge you to explain the silly "magnetic vortex" business in Acca's aquarium videos all by yourself.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2015, 07:01:46 PM »

Offline Magluvin

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2015, 07:22:53 PM »
Here are the 2 bearings I spoke of earlier. Grease is cleaned out and worked in graphite. They spin when the wind blows.  ;D

Will try some things tonight. The larger diameter will allow the rollers to spin faster during race rotation. If the fields in the balls/rollers tilt as I had suggested, then the tilt should be more with higher roller rpms.  Also coming up with a test using an iron disk to emulate a ball in a bearing. Will set it up on a drive motor with a + brush on top edge and - brush on bottom edge and see if we can detect(compass?) if there is any tilt during rotation of the disk.  By tilt I mean, being the balls/rollers/disk is iron, it is possible the iron is dragging the fields created by the currents, causing them to be offset while in motion as compared to stationary.  Its possible copper(non magnetic) instead of iron may produce a dragging effect(due to lenz) also, if the theory is good.

Mags

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2015, 08:31:09 PM »
Quote
Below is a pic of the magnetic field around a current carrying wire. The field is uniform,and the arrows mean nothing. There is also a pic of the field around a PM.You will see a red dot-that is our current carrying wire touching the center of a rod magnet. So picture the wire coming from your eyes,and going straight into the magnet. So as we can see,we have a static field around the wire imerced in a static field around the rod magnet. We apply current and the magnet spins.

Why would you say that the arrows mean nothing when in fact the arrows are critical information and mean nearly everything?

Quote
So now,why is the force from the wire pushing on one side of the magnetic field of the magnet,and not the other side with the same amount of force-when both magnetic fields are uniform. The field from the magnet is exactly the same in front of the wire as it is behind the wire. The field around the wire is also uniform. So why is there a force in the direction of the green arrow,and not the blue arrow-as everything is the same as far as fields go.

Feel free to make an actual technical argument like you are suggesting above.  Please go ahead and explain your thinking for there to be two forces, one in the direction of the green arrow, and one in the direction of the blue arrow.  Text only will not cut it, you need to advance your argument with diagrams with a complete explanation.

You state "everything is the same as far as the fields go" with respect to the full setup with the magnet and the current-carrying wired that goes into the center of the magnet as per your diagram.  Is everything really the same?  Look at the setup again and show how "everything is the same."

Quote
And since when did applying a force to a magnetic field cause the magnet to spin?<--in this situation. The same should apply in reverse. We should be able to spin the magnet,and create a force-right?. No ,we cant,because the field on either side of the wire is uniform.

The above text has seriously flawed logic to the point that it doesn't even make sense.  So your first step would be to rewrite your statement so that it at least makes sense, and then we can examine your statement to see what's up.

Quote
It's like i said,most dont stop and have a really good look at what there being asked to accept.
This is much like the homopolar generator-why do you have to spin it to get current from it. Why dosnt it matter wether or not the magnets spin with the disk?. The reasons given are just another hack job at what isnt yet understood,and that is the magnetic field.

Nope, it's more like you don't understand and you take a position that magnetic fields are not understood well enough to explain various observed phenomena.  You use it like a proverbial "Get out of Jail Free" card to avoid just doing the required work to understand what's going on.  All of these concepts build up layer by layer where you start with the most basic situations and then use that knowledge to explain more complex situations on the higher up layers.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2015, 09:30:34 PM »



Quote
Why would you say that the arrows mean nothing when in fact the arrows are critical information and mean nearly everything?

Well feel free to tell me what the arrows mean MH. We know that they dont mean north/south.
Let me take a guess here-->they represent flow-!right!. Ok,well then tell me,the flow of what?.

Quote
Feel free to make an actual technical argument like you are suggesting above.  Please go ahead and explain your thinking for there to be two forces, one in the direction of the green arrow, and one in the direction of the blue arrow.  Text only will not cut it, you need to advance your argument with diagrams with a complete explanation.

I wasnt making a claim MH,i was asking a question-->one that you need to answer.
How is a force generated in 1 direction when the magnetic field from the PM is equal in strength and flow on each side of the wire,and that wire has a uniform field around it-->both depicted by the pretty arrows.

Quote
You state "everything is the same as far as the fields go" with respect to the full setup with the magnet and the current-carrying wired that goes into the center of the magnet as per your diagram.  Is everything really the same?  Look at the setup again and show how "everything is the same."

This i have explained above,but lets try and explain it using water flow.
We have a stream of water flowing downward(lets say a water fall),This is the PM's field,then we have this jet of water (the field around the wire)being shot into our water fall at right angles. So now,how do we get a third streem of water shooting out to the left of our jet of water,and nothing out to the right?.How dose this uniform jet of water being shot into our water fall push the water of the water fall to the left and not to the right.

Quote
The above text has seriously flawed logic to the point that it doesn't even make sense.  So your first step would be to rewrite your statement so that it at least makes sense, and then we can examine your statement to see what's up.

There is no flaw MH,you just fail to understand what im trying to say. If current flow causes rotation of the magnet,then the opposite should apply,in that rotation of the magnet should cause current to flow-which it dosnt,i have tried with RPM's up to 10,000

Quote
Nope, it's more like you don't understand and you take a position that magnetic fields are not understood well enough to explain various observed phenomena.  You use it like a proverbial "Get out of Jail Free" card to avoid just doing the required work to understand what's going on.  All of these concepts build up layer by layer where you start with the most basic situations and then use that knowledge to explain more complex situations on the higher up layers.

Im begining to understand MH,but im afraid my understanding isnt in line with yours. Below is another pic that i have modified. In this configuration,the magnet still spins. Now how be that, when apparently the two forces at right angles to the wire are in opposite directions?. This i found based around Mags experiment,only he used ali foil as the second wire.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2015, 07:14:24 AM »
Quote
Well feel free to tell me what the arrows mean MH. We know that they dont mean north/south.
Let me take a guess here-->they represent flow-!right!. Ok,well then tell me,the flow of what?.

It means that two fields from two separate sources can add or completely cancel out and that is highly significant.

Quote
How is a force generated in 1 direction when the magnetic field from the PM is equal in strength and flow on each side of the wire,and that wire has a uniform field around it-->both depicted by the pretty arrows.

Put the two fields together and is everything still "uniform" or not?

Quote
This i have explained above,but lets try and explain it using water flow.
We have a stream of water flowing downward(lets say a water fall),This is the PM's field,then we have this jet of water (the field around the wire)being shot into our water fall at right angles. So now,how do we get a third streem of water shooting out to the left of our jet of water,and nothing out to the right?.How dose this uniform jet of water being shot into our water fall push the water of the water fall to the left and not to the right.

Your analogy is no good, it doesn't even make sense.  As a result it falls apart.

Quote
There is no flaw MH,you just fail to understand what im trying to say. If current flow causes rotation of the magnet,then the opposite should apply,in that rotation of the magnet should cause current to flow-which it dosnt,i have tried with RPM's up to 10,000

Sorry, but I am starting to run out of gas.  If you are told your analogy is no good, one would hope that you would go back to it and try to figure out what could possibly be wrong with it and then tweak it and make it make sense.  Not everything is reversible like you are trying to imply.  However, if you are not willing to go back and re-examine your analogy with a critical eye and look for possible problems, then the only viable alternative is spoon-feeding.  It's not going to sink in like that so the ball is in your court.  You can look for flaws in your logic and try to fix things, or not.

Quote
m begining to understand MH,but im afraid my understanding isnt in line with yours. Below is another pic that i have modified. In this configuration,the magnet still spins. Now how be that, when apparently the two forces at right angles to the wire are in opposite directions?. This i found based around Mags experiment,only he used ali foil as the second wire.

I attached your graphic again.  Is the left grey arrow coming out of the page or going into the page?  This is an ongoing issue with you, not providing enough detail.  Are you supposed to be showing a homopolar motor or the grasshopper oscillator?   One more time, what you presented here is a mess where what the graphic is suggesting and your text do not jive, so I am not going to comment.  There are a handful of issues in your points here and without any resolution to those issues I won't comment.

Sometimes you need to take a break after you write something up.  Just wait a day and then reread your points and you might be somewhat shocked at how many things are either missing, or don't make sense, or are ambiguous.  I am a details person and you are not a details person.  It makes a technical discussion very difficult.

Again, I can only recommend the following:

1,  Obtain complete mastery over the way the homopolar motor works.
2.  Explain exactly how the swirling aquarium business works.
3.  Then you are in a position to tackle the bearing motor and figure out exactly how it works.

MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #64 on: June 04, 2015, 07:14:24 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2015, 08:16:16 AM »
It means that two fields from two separate sources can add or completely cancel out and that is highly significant.

Put the two fields together and is everything still "uniform" or not?

Your analogy is no good, it doesn't even make sense.  As a result it falls apart.

Sorry, but I am starting to run out of gas.  If you are told your analogy is no good, one would hope that you would go back to it and try to figure out what could possibly be wrong with it and then tweak it and make it make sense.  Not everything is reversible like you are trying to imply.  However, if you are not willing to go back and re-examine your analogy with a critical eye and look for possible problems, then the only viable alternative is spoon-feeding.  It's not going to sink in like that so the ball is in your court.  You can look for flaws in your logic and try to fix things, or not.

I attached your graphic again.  Is the left grey arrow coming out of the page or going into the page?  This is an ongoing issue with you, not providing enough detail.  Are you supposed to be showing a homopolar motor or the grasshopper oscillator?   One more time, what you presented here is a mess where what the graphic is suggesting and your text do not jive, so I am not going to comment.  There are a handful of issues in your points here and without any resolution to those issues I won't comment.

Sometimes you need to take a break after you write something up.  Just wait a day and then reread your points and you might be somewhat shocked at how many things are either missing, or don't make sense, or are ambiguous.  I am a details person and you are not a details person.  It makes a technical discussion very difficult.

Again, I can only recommend the following:

1,  Obtain complete mastery over the way the homopolar motor works.
2.  Explain exactly how the swirling aquarium business works.3.  Then you are in a position to tackle the bearing motor and figure out exactly how it works.

MileHigh

I made it very clear MH as to what direction the arrow is pointing in my description. It would seem that you fail to realise that we are talking about a rotation here.
Quote: Now how be that, when apparently the two forces at right angles to the wire are in opposite directions
So,the original arrow shows a force that would push the wire away from us,and cause the magnet to spin in a cloclwise direction looking down on top of the magnet. So as i stated that the force on the other wire is in the opposite direction,this force would cause the magnet to spin anticlockwise looking down on top of the magnet.
I am not sure how that is not clear to you when you consider that the forces create rotation in this case.

I have done the aquarium test many time's--Have you forgot?.
Do you remember that i completely insulated the outer perimeter of the magnet,and the magnet still spun-->that one had many of you baffled-->back in Theo's thread it was.
Then i did the same test with an electromagnet,and there was no spin-->remember.?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2015, 12:24:40 PM »
Quote
I made it very clear MH as to what direction the arrow is pointing in my description. It would seem that you fail to realise that we are talking about a rotation here.

I told you that it's messed up.  The current directions in your diagram do not make a spinning motor, yet you claim it spins, and your added arrow in the diagram itself is ambiguous.  You are supposed to make the direction for the arrow clear in the diagram itself.  If you are not going to follow-up and at least have a look at what I am saying there is no point.

Quote
I have done the aquarium test many time's--Have you forgot?

Yes, I was aware of your testing but I did not really follow your experiments or watch your clips.   I simply asked you if you could explain what is observed in a typical Acca-type aquarium vortex clip, and I assume that your clips were very similar.   So in response to my question you don't answer it and instead make reference to your own tests.  That doesn't answer my question and I am not convinced that you can explain the infamous vortex in the aquarium.  I am simply asking you as a challenge and as a lead up to understanding the bearing motor.  I figure if you get the homopolar motor and the aquarium vortex stuff then you will be in a good position to tackle the ball bearing motor.  I honestly don't have a solid explanation for how the ball bearing motor works with the actual source for the torque nailed down and fully explained.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2015, 12:24:40 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #67 on: June 04, 2015, 12:42:37 PM »
Quote
So,the original arrow shows a force that would push the wire away from us,and cause the magnet to spin in a cloclwise direction looking down on top of the magnet. So as i stated that the force on the other wire is in the opposite direction,this force would cause the magnet to spin anticlockwise looking down on top of the magnet.

The above is an example of your near-continuous shifting of gears and changing the subject matter or responding about subject B when the question was about subject A.  In a homopolar motor the magnet does not spin, the paperclip does the spinning.  This whole discussion has not been about spinning magnets at all.

Also I have been thinking about a homopolar type of setup where the wire remains stationary and the magnet does indeed spin.  My preliminary thoughts are that the magnet will spin but not because of some kind of a pushing force on the magnet due the force on the external wire.  It's more complicated than that and I believe the current has to flow through the cylindrical magnet itself for the magnet to spin.  You could have a very similar setup where there is no current flowing through the magnet itself which I believe will result in no magnet spinning.  Likewise, if the wires do make contact with the magnet then the actual reason for the magnet spinning has nothing to do with forces on the external wires.  All of this is with moderate to high confidence and if I had a setup I would do some tests to confirm or deny all of this as well as making a diagram to explain it.

So as you can see, the issue of the magnet in a homopolar motor spinning could be a whole new ball of wax with a completely different explanation for the process.  Hence the desire to stick with one subject at a time with no switching topics on the fly.  I am balking because now you are switching over to talking about spinning magnets and when you think of a homopolar motor you think about the spinning paperclip and not about a spinning magnet.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2015, 01:55:25 PM »

Quote
The above is an example of your near-continuous shifting of gears and changing the subject matter or responding about subject B when the question was about subject A.  In a homopolar motor the magnet does not spin, the paperclip does the spinning.  This whole discussion has not been about spinning magnets at all.

Well i dont know where you have been MH,but all the homopolar motors i have made have the magnet spining while the wire remains stationary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s138-oe79_I

Quote
Also I have been thinking about a homopolar type of setup where the wire remains stationary and the magnet does indeed spin.  My preliminary thoughts are that the magnet will spin but not because of some kind of a pushing force on the magnet due the force on the external wire.  It's more complicated than that and I believe the current has to flow through the cylindrical magnet itself for the magnet to spin.  You could have a very similar setup where there is no current flowing through the magnet itself which I believe will result in no magnet spinning.  Likewise, if the wires do make contact with the magnet then the actual reason for the magnet spinning has nothing to do with forces on the external wires.  All of this is with moderate to high confidence and if I had a setup I would do some tests to confirm or deny all of this as well as making a diagram to explain it.

So as you can see, the issue of the magnet in a homopolar motor spinning could be a whole new ball of wax with a completely different explanation for the process.  Hence the desire to stick with one subject at a time with no switching topics on the fly.  I am balking because now you are switching over to talking about spinning magnets and when you think of a homopolar motor you think about the spinning paperclip and not about a spinning magnet.

Well,see there lies the problem.
I have all along been talking about the spining magnet homopolar motor,as it relates to the bearing motor,where thw wires dont spin,and the ball's(which may be the magnets)are spining.
I have also on many occasions mentioned Mag'e experiment with the rolling(spining)magnet,and stationary wires.
I think you got one thing in your head,and it stuck. While me and Mag's were refering to the version where the magnet is in motion.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2015, 06:18:32 PM »
You are right there is a problem.  This is bloody ridiculous so I am giving up.  The average person thinks about a spinning paper clip on top of an AA battery that is sitting on top of a cylindrical magnet when you say, "homopolar motor."   I did the YouTube search and the vast majority of of homopolar motors on the first two pages of search results are the spinning paper clip type.  There are some with spinning magnets also.

There are some with spinning magnets but what the hell are we agonizing about the Lorentz forces on the wires of the paper clip for if the wires don't even move?  That's what the force vectors on the wires are for - to explain what makes the paper clip spin.  Look at my attached diagram with the two wires that make contact with the cylindrical magnet and the subsequent discussion about the forces on the wires to make the paper clip spin.   If you are talking about a spinning magnet then you should be talking about explaining the forces on the magnet itself to make the magnet spin.

I annotated your graphic to make it fit what you are actually supposedly talking about.   Note the force vectors on the wires are removed because they have absolutely nothing to do with what you are talking about.  There must be a force on the magnet itself which you haven't discussed or tried to explain properly.  The current on the left wire is in the wrong direction and you never tried to correct it and in fact it would be in the wrong direction for a spinning magnet or for a spinning paper clip.  If you wanted to make what you were talking about clear you would have put an arrow on the magnet to show the fact that it is spinning as a standard accepted convention for drawings.

It's a mess Tinman and I am giving up.  You need to learn to communicate clearly and effectively.  Now that we know what you are talking about I challenge you to explain how the spinning-magnet version of a homopolar motor works.  Likewise I am not convinced that you can explain the swirling water in the many Acca aquarium videos.  I think both a worthwhile challenge for you if you want to pursue this exploration and learning experience before you address the bearing motor but it's up to you.  I am bowing out of this discussion.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2015, 06:18:32 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2015, 12:32:20 AM »
You are right there is a problem.  This is bloody ridiculous so I am giving up.  The average person thinks about a spinning paper clip on top of an AA battery that is sitting on top of a cylindrical magnet when you say, "homopolar motor."   I did the YouTube search and the vast majority of of homopolar motors on the first two pages of search results are the spinning paper clip type.  There are some with spinning magnets also.

There are some with spinning magnets but what the hell are we agonizing about the Lorentz forces on the wires of the paper clip for if the wires don't even move?  That's what the force vectors on the wires are for - to explain what makes the paper clip spin.  Look at my attached diagram with the two wires that make contact with the cylindrical magnet and the subsequent discussion about the forces on the wires to make the paper clip spin.   If you are talking about a spinning magnet then you should be talking about explaining the forces on the magnet itself to make the magnet spin.

I annotated your graphic to make it fit what you are actually supposedly talking about.   Note the force vectors on the wires are removed because they have absolutely nothing to do with what you are talking about.  There must be a force on the magnet itself which you haven't discussed or tried to explain properly.  The current on the left wire is in the wrong direction and you never tried to correct it and in fact it would be in the wrong direction for a spinning magnet or for a spinning paper clip.  If you wanted to make what you were talking about clear you would have put an arrow on the magnet to show the fact that it is spinning as a standard accepted convention for drawings.

It's a mess Tinman and I am giving up.  You need to learn to communicate clearly and effectively.  Now that we know what you are talking about I challenge you to explain how the spinning-magnet version of a homopolar motor works.  Likewise I am not convinced that you can explain the swirling water in the many Acca aquarium videos.  I think both a worthwhile challenge for you if you want to pursue this exploration and learning experience before you address the bearing motor but it's up to you.  I am bowing out of this discussion.
MH
I am not sure where you turned left when the rest of us went right. The homopolar motor issue came about when Mags posted his rolling(rotating)magnet experiment,which i fel is related to how the bearing motor works.

The two examples here on the homopolar motor opperate in the very same way,and is why i asked you to explain how and why this force from the wire is in one direction,and how a force exerted on a magnetic filed in this example can cause rotation.

The two examples work in the same way-->either the wire spins in a clockwise direction,or if the wire is fixed,then the equal and opposite forces cause the magnet to spin in an anticlockwise direction. So now maybe you understand as to why i asked-->how dose a force exerted on a magnetic field in this situation cause the magnet to rotate.

So now you need to think about the aquarium experiment. Is the water and bubbles turning in the direction that the wire would turn in,or are they turning in the direction that the magnet would want to turn in.?. Remember here we have ion's carrying the current,and not electrons.
Lets see if you get it right.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #71 on: June 05, 2015, 02:49:28 AM »
It just never ends Brad.  You think in half-steps when what you want to do is try to think two steps or even three steps ahead.

Quote
So now you need to think about the aquarium experiment. Is the water and bubbles turning in the direction that the wire would turn in,or are they turning in the direction that the magnet would want to turn in.?. Remember here we have ion's carrying the current,and not electrons.
Lets see if you get it right.

I can feel it.  You are thinking that if it is positive ion current that it's going to deflect in the opposite direction than what we would expect if it was say a current that stems from the motion of negative electrons.

Notice that you failed to sate if you were talking about positive or negative ions but I suppose that you meant positive ions.  Your mind is failing to go that next half step and define which kind of ions you are talking about.  This stuff happens all the time.

But here is the big problem:  If negative electron based current goes from say top to bottom, then positive ion based current will flow from bottom to top - effectively they both represent current flow in the same direction.  Therefore any force on downwards flowing electron current or upwards flowing positive ion current will be in the same direction.  You just have to stop and think and go that next half step in your analysis of the situation to realize this.  The problem is that you are stuck at the first half step and you go no further.

Like I said, I am done here.

Offline tinman

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #72 on: June 05, 2015, 12:20:08 PM »
It just never ends Brad.  You think in half-steps when what you want to do is try to think two steps or even three steps ahead.

I can feel it.  You are thinking that if it is positive ion current that it's going to deflect in the opposite direction than what we would expect if it was say a current that stems from the motion of negative electrons.

Notice that you failed to sate if you were talking about positive or negative ions but I suppose that you meant positive ions.  Your mind is failing to go that next half step and define which kind of ions you are talking about.  This stuff happens all the time.

But here is the big problem:  If negative electron based current goes from say top to bottom, then positive ion based current will flow from bottom to top - effectively they both represent current flow in the same direction.  Therefore any force on downwards flowing electron current or upwards flowing positive ion current will be in the same direction.  You just have to stop and think and go that next half step in your analysis of the situation to realize this.  The problem is that you are stuck at the first half step and you go no further.

Like I said, I am done here.
MH
Im not stuck,as i have done all these experiments,and seen the results with my own eyes-->no books ;)

So i need to clarify here(as i should). In the video you posted,the guy actually touches the magnet with the wire,where as i use only the water to carry the current. So in this case,the current is being carried by ion's(mostly).
My question about which way you think the bubbles/water should rotate is a very valid question,as i was quite supprised by the results my self. All is not what it seems MH,this you can be sure of.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #73 on: June 05, 2015, 02:37:59 PM »
Yeah Brad in reading between the lines in your last posting it's apparent that you didn't think about the fact that a positive ion flow of current and a negative electron flow under the influence of the same source of potential difference will in fact be deflected in the same way by an external magnetic field.  So you were wrong.  Can't you ever simply own up to your mistakes and acknowledge that you didn't think things through?

I am burning in the point because if you are going to share some experimental data and assume a quasi teaching or data sharing role then it's doubly important as the presenter of the information and data to own up to your mistakes.  For some people it feels like they are going to faint if they admit that they are wrong.  It's not the end of the world and you aren't the pope.

That's one of the big reasons I am bowing out of this thread.  It's simply too frustrating to see/hear you go mute when you make a mistake or do an incredibly sloppy presentation of your data or setup with oversights and omissions and mistakes and then say nothing when that is pointed out to you.  I have no idea if you agree or disagree or learned something or are simply going to ignore the issue at hand like some kind of technical zombie walk.

There is not a single damn thing that is unusual or to be discovered or to be learned when it comes to sticking two live wires into a tank of water with a magnet at the bottom of the tank and watching the swirling bubbles form.  All is exactly as it seems when it comes to something as trivial as this.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2015, 05:45:54 PM »
Yeah Brad in reading between the lines in your last posting it's apparent that you didn't think about the fact that a positive ion flow of current and a negative electron flow under the influence of the same source of potential difference will in fact be deflected in the same way by an external magnetic field.  So you were wrong.  Can't you ever simply own up to your mistakes and acknowledge that you didn't think things through?

I am burning in the point because if you are going to share some experimental data and assume a quasi teaching or data sharing role then it's doubly important as the presenter of the information and data to own up to your mistakes.  For some people it feels like they are going to faint if they admit that they are wrong.  It's not the end of the world and you aren't the pope.

That's one of the big reasons I am bowing out of this thread.  It's simply too frustrating to see/hear you go mute when you make a mistake or do an incredibly sloppy presentation of your data or setup with oversights and omissions and mistakes and then say nothing when that is pointed out to you.  I have no idea if you agree or disagree or learned something or are simply going to ignore the issue at hand like some kind of technical zombie walk.

MH
I have made no mistake. All i have done is asked you some question's,that you keep avoiding,and insisting that it is me making the mistakes here.

I know the outcome of the test MH,and it would seem that from a previous post of yours,you were a little lost as to how the magnet might spin if the wire is held in position. You were about to embark on a mission to see how that may be happing,and yet it happens the same way as if it were the wire spining.

I think some times MH you get lost in thread's,and this one has left you behind. I knew that this may be a topic that you didnt understand when you said that the bearing motor would only rotate in one direction. But here you are saying it is me that is lost,and bumbling everything up.

Quote
There is not a single damn thing that is unusual or to be discovered or to be learned when it comes to sticking two live wires into a tank of water with a magnet at the bottom of the tank and watching the swirling bubbles form.  All is exactly as it seems when it comes to something as trivial as this.

And yet you had to go and think about how the forces must be acting to get the magnet in a homopolar motor spining
Quote: Also I have been thinking about a homopolar type of setup where the wire remains stationary and the magnet does indeed spin.  My preliminary thoughts are that the magnet will spin but not because of some kind of a pushing force on the magnet due the force on the external wire. It's more complicated than that and I believe the current has to flow through the cylindrical magnet itself for the magnet to spin.

This is what i mean MH.
In both cases the current flows through the magnet,and in both cases the current dosnt have to flow through the magnet,as long as the magnetic field is present in both cases. So this means that in both situations,the force creating either rotation(magnet or conducting wire)is the very same thing,only in the opposite direction to each other.

So please MH,dont come here and try and belittle me when you yourself missed something so obvious. If this is where your books have taken you MH,then i am in no way interested in them. This is a very good example where actual experiments trump book's.

When this sinks in,then you will find my question (how dose a force imparted on a magnetic field cause the magnet itself to spin in this situation) not so stupid. You hold the wire in place,the magnet spin's-->you hold the magnet in place,and the wire spins in the opposite direction-meaning the force doing the work is the very same,and has nothing to do with having to send current through the magnet it self.

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Re: The bearing motor
« Reply #74 on: June 05, 2015, 05:45:54 PM »

 

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