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Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 73143 times)

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2015, 05:13:55 PM »
Why don't you try using a lower coercivity material?  If the idea is to find out whether something can be magnetized to emulate the field that surrounds a wire, then a piece of iron or steel rod may be the way to go.  Then you can do an iron filing pattern test to see if the field persists as it should even though it will be weak.  Other experiments could include running a wire much longer than the diameter of a washer through the middle, and then energizing and deenergizing the wire.  The other thing that you should watch out for is that your magnetizer current doesn't oscillate thereby making something of a degausser.  A fast diode across the wire ends should take care of that.

I am reasonably convinced that the field generated by current flowing in a conductor is unique and is impossible to emulate with magnets.
However, a new discovery on making non-magnetic metals magnetic, indicates it may be possible from the following quote:

"In the new study, the researchers have shown how to change the exchange interaction and DOS in non-magnetic materials by removing some electrons using an interface coated with a thin layer of the carbon molecule C60, which is also called a ‘buckyball’. The movement of electrons between the metal and the molecules allows the non-magnetic material to overcome the Stoner Criterion."


So it seems that if a thin layer with magnetic properties could be formed with the right field direction on the outside of a non-magnetic metal, it may be possible to build a non-electrical wire that simulates a wire with a current flow.


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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #90 on: August 15, 2015, 05:13:55 PM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #91 on: August 15, 2015, 05:21:47 PM »
Magnetization is just the process of aligning domains.  Since domains can take on any orientation, there is no reason that I can think of as to why you should not be able to magnetize circularly except right at the center of a disk.  I think that the problem you have magnetizing hard magnetic material is one of developing enough field strength.  That is why I am suggesting you experiment with relatively low coercivity materials to start.  Just eliminate reaching saturation flux as a requirement to start.  Assuming that you successfully magnetize circularly, as I think you should be able to do, then it would become a matter of engineering a magnetizing rig that develops an sufficiently intense field to magnetize the hard magnetic materal.

Here is a reference on defect detection using both circular and longitudal magnetization:  https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/FieldOrientation.htm

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #92 on: August 15, 2015, 05:30:30 PM »
My potential solutions to  the  'non-electric-faraday-motor'

Solutions
( 1 ) -  The  interaction in the  'First-Image'  I have attached below,  and applied in the ways below ( or combined with them ).

( 2 ) - The way  the  'non-electric-railguns' work,  but I thought I had seen one in which the  interacting  magnets were  90-degrees to each other,  but I cannot find it now.   (  but the angles of standard   'non-electric-railguns'  could work as well,   remembering,   the  static magnets  in the    'non-electric-railguns'  I have seen are all the same strength and angle,   perfect  )

(  I also  visualized  this solution  as a combination of the  two-rings( or 3 rings in my  Levitating-Object-Invention )  and my latest  New-Type-of-Magnetic-Bearing-Invention  )

(  I'm  not sure why I prefer the interaction of magnets at  90-degrees  to each other,  rather than other angles  )

(  And,  in a solution,  one or more of the interacting  magnetic-surfaces  might be made into  a brick-wall type pattern ,  and it would actually look like a standard  brick-wall pattern,  in order to get past  sticky points  )

The  second image ,   I have attached below,  another configuration and interaction I have found usefull for this problem

(  P.S. This site needs a  'function'  that when a   'Required-Scientific-Explanation'  is  'identified'  by it's  members,  and if it is deemed  important enough by a   'Person-Appointed-for-the-Function',    that then  the  'Person-Appointed-for-the-Function'  ensures that the  'Required-Scientific-Explanation'  is obtained from  appropriate sources.     The best example is this  'non-electric-faraday-motor'  problem .    Earlier,  I had noticed indications that  qualified  physicists( or from other fields ) do actually know the answer to this question (  although some think the explanation is too complicated for the members in this site too understand .   It's sad that members here are wasting their valuable time and materials and their energy in  'quasi-daft'  or  'overly complex'  attempted  solutions to an incredibly simple  problems,  that could be prevented from happening if they had  the  existing  'correct-scientific-answers'  from the correct sources .   )

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #93 on: August 15, 2015, 05:58:00 PM »
Magnetization is just the process of aligning domains.  Since domains can take on any orientation, there is no reason that I can think of as to why you should not be able to magnetize circularly except right at the center of a disk.  I think that the problem you have magnetizing hard magnetic material is one of developing enough field strength.  That is why I am suggesting you experiment with relatively low coercivity materials to start.  Just eliminate reaching saturation flux as a requirement to start.  Assuming that you successfully magnetize circularly, as I think you should be able to do, then it would become a matter of engineering a magnetizing rig that develops an sufficiently intense field to magnetize the hard magnetic materal.

Here is a reference on defect detection using both circular and longitudal magnetization:  https://www.nde-ed.org/EducationResources/CommunityCollege/MagParticle/Physics/FieldOrientation.htm

Interesting page but what they show is with current flowing to test the anomalies at the imperfections in the weld.

What I'm saying is that without the current flowing, the field attracts into the core and becomes locked in it's own reinforcing loop.

If you connect several diametrically magnetized cylinders into a ring, they suddenly become very non-magnetic even though nothing has changed within the magnet and it is still fully magnetized, the field remains in the core.

When the loop is broken the field returns as expected. So even if one did achieve a circular field in a cylinder, you would never know because it would loop only inside the core.

That's why current flow generates a special case where the field is excluded from the core or is pushed outside of it.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2015, 06:40:58 PM »
.
What you have just   highlighted  about the   viability   of a  magnetic ring ( the same fact I keep on forgetting, and remembering )  ,     makes  me realize  that if you sufficiently space out the magnets in the magnetic ring( in order to retain their magnetic-field )  ,   then  the  two-rings( or 3 rings in my  'Levitating-Object-Invention' )  could function successfully  or  semi-successfully,   and an unwanted  cog-wheel-frictional-effect  could  be eliminated by many  multiple  inner and outer  'magnetic rings',  overlapping each others cog-wheel-frictional-effect . 

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #94 on: August 15, 2015, 06:40:58 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #95 on: August 15, 2015, 06:58:55 PM »
.
What you have just   highlighted  about the   viability   of a  magnetic ring ( the same fact I keep on forgetting, and remembering )  ,     makes  me realize  that if you sufficiently space out the magnets in the magnetic ring( in order to retain their magnetic-field )  ,   then  the  two-rings( or 3 rings in my  'Levitating-Object-Invention' )  could function successfully  or  semi-successfully,   and an unwanted  cog-wheel-frictional-effect  could  be eliminated by many  multiple  inner and outer  'magnetic rings',  overlapping each others cog-wheel-frictional-effect .

Spacing the magnets will cause some of the field to be exposed but then the second problem arises, the circular field is no longer continuous but broken allowing merge points for the external field to attract into.
 
In a conductor the field is continuous and another parallel field is unable to merge into it so there is no attraction, unlike the broken field where a parallel field will attract into the broken spaces causing attraction unlike the conductor.
 

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2015, 07:39:43 PM »
Yes,  but I was only talking about how it could solve my   invention  in another  thread  .

______________

Regarding  :  The  Non-Electric-Faraday-Motor

(  The Following Would Not Work,  But I Should Type It    :    Imagine  this  'magnetic-ring'  made  of  spaced  strong-magnets,  you could then enclose  this ring in an outer shell made of some type (  or pattern ) of material,  that  could smooth out the field,      'But Then the Field in The Outer Shell Would Would Remain Inside The Outer Shell Material Because it is a Ring'    )

A Good Solution Could Be To Arrange The Magnets In  a 'Brick Wall Pattern'
The   'spaced-magnets'  could be arranged  in a   'Brick-Wall'  pattern,     to   'counter-balance'   each others    'Merge Points' ,  so that those  'Merge Points'   do not stop rotation.
(   And,  this  'Brick-Wall' effect,   to   'counter-balance'   each others    'Merge Points',   could be achieved in other ways,  such as multiple wheels  all  spinning on the same  axle,   and there are also other ways   )

And, we've done a full circle to return to the common problems in magnet-motors

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #96 on: August 15, 2015, 07:39:43 PM »
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Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #97 on: August 15, 2015, 09:43:50 PM »
Another  possible  solution to achieve the  'replication'  of  the  'magnetic-field'  of an  electric-wire( carrying DC current )  by just using   'permanent-magnets',    for the   'Non-Electric-Permanent-Magnet-Powered-Faraday-Motor'   .

In the image below,  is a  drum  covered in the blue magnets .

(  But the drum could be without the magnets,  and be replaced  with a  cylinder-shaped-magnet   ) .

Around the drum,  is the  'Coiled-Magnet' .
(     One way to make an 'almost' equivalent of a  'Coiled-Magnet' ,  could be to,  for example,  get a small-flattish-round-magnet,  then join a short section of  'Coiled Metal' to it,  and repeat this process until the coil is long enough,  and maybe you could fit what you've made into  a  Coiled-Pipe,  so that it doesn't collapse  )  .

The drum ( or magnets on the drum ),  will  never  detect  either end of the coil ( the  merge-points )  .
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 01:03:03 AM by guest1289 »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #98 on: August 16, 2015, 03:01:46 AM »
Interesting page but what they show is with current flowing to test the anomalies at the imperfections in the weld.

What I'm saying is that without the current flowing, the field attracts into the core and becomes locked in it's own reinforcing loop.

If you connect several diametrically magnetized cylinders into a ring, they suddenly become very non-magnetic even though nothing has changed within the magnet and it is still fully magnetized, the field remains in the core.

When the loop is broken the field returns as expected. So even if one did achieve a circular field in a cylinder, you would never know because it would loop only inside the core.

That's why current flow generates a special case where the field is excluded from the core or is pushed outside of it.
The remnant magnetization retains the same orientation as when the field is applied.  The coercivity of the material and the strength of the applied field determines the strength of the residual field.  If you want to assert the idea that the field shape changes rather than the field strength changing, I think you need to either find experiments where that has been shown, or perform experiments that show that idea is correct.  A simple test with iron filings surrounding a washer should be adequate.  You could even run the test (this has been done many times) with just iron filings on a sheet of paper or plastic with a wire running through the center. 

The citation establishes that the orientation you seek is commonly obtained and exploited.

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2015, 03:52:55 AM »
The remnant magnetization retains the same orientation as when the field is applied.  The coercivity of the material and the strength of the applied field determines the strength of the residual field.  If you want to assert the idea that the field shape changes rather than the field strength changing, I think you need to either find experiments where that has been shown, or perform experiments that show that idea is correct.  A simple test with iron filings surrounding a washer should be adequate.  You could even run the test (this has been done many times) with just iron filings on a sheet of paper or plastic with a wire running through the center. 

The citation establishes that the orientation you seek is commonly obtained and exploited.

I might do a few additional tests because I found a piece of a Sony magnascale core and that rod takes on a field very easy.

You are however skipping the fact that the field orientation is not actually changing. In a horseshoe magnet, the field orientation does not change when a keeper is placed across the ends but yet the external field is gone.

Forming the ring of diametric cylinder magnets did not change the field orientation but still the external field is gone.

The logical prediction is that a cylinder with a circular field will have no external field because it will be retained inside the core, just like all other magnets forming a circular field.

The citation is for the detection of welding flaws and is simply showing the field with current flowing and how the flaw will show up with a distorted field if there is a pocket or crack in the weld and this is understandable. It's not indicating the field will continue to extend off the surface after the current stops flowing.

If such a magnet could be made then it would be very easy to build a magnet motor simply by placing it in another magnets field correctly.
I would like this to be real and work as dreamed, but that does not make it true.



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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2015, 03:52:55 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #100 on: August 16, 2015, 04:43:01 AM »
I might do a few additional tests because I found a piece of a Sony magnascale core and that rod takes on a field very easy.

You are however skipping the fact that the field orientation is not actually changing. In a horseshoe magnet, the field orientation does not change when a keeper is placed across the ends but yet the external field is gone.

Forming the ring of diametric cylinder magnets did not change the field orientation but still the external field is gone.
Apples and oranges.  The keeper is a highly permeable block that changes the field concentration.  It dramatically changes the magnetic path length.   Energizing or deenergizing a magnet does not change the magnetic path.  It changes the magnetic excitation.
Quote

The logical prediction is that a cylinder with a circular field will have no external field because it will be retained inside the core, just like all other magnets forming a circular field.
There is a world of difference between zero and some.  The more permeable the material the less the leakage.  But there is always leakage.  If you go get an iron pipe and energize a wire running through it, yes the leakage will be low, but it will still be there.  You have been wondering if you can get a PM to produce the same field pattern as a copper wire.  The answer is yes.  The material having a higher permeability than copper means that the model is of a powered copper wire inside a core of that permeability.
Quote

The citation is for the detection of welding flaws and is simply showing the field with current flowing and how the flaw will show up with a distorted field if there is a pocket or crack in the weld and this is understandable. It's not indicating the field will continue to extend off the surface after the current stops flowing.
Yes, and so what?  The first requirement is that you can get the same field shape.  The second is retaining the shape.  If your objection is that a field will concentrate in highly permeable material, that has nothing to do with being able to magnetize in a circular pattern or not per se.  Since you would like most of the field to remain outside the core, then that is a matter of materials choice.  You could for example sinter a core of powdered ferrite magnet or ceramic magnet material so as to greatly reduce the permeability, and thereby greatly increase the proportion of the field that extends beyond the core circumference.
Quote

If such a magnet could be made then it would be very easy to build a magnet motor simply by placing it in another magnets field correctly.
I would like this to be real and work as dreamed, but that does not make it true.
You are going to need to explain why you think that would be so.  I don't see where such a conclusion follows at all. 

A motor operates by repeatedly changing the location of the potential energy minimum.  Moving the PE minimum location when the system is at any location other than the new minimum takes work.  Some of that work, and in a well-designed motor almost all of that work, conveys to the motor mechanical output.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #101 on: August 16, 2015, 12:24:01 PM »
Lumen, i believe you. It seems that there is no way with permanent magnet motors, or well, any magnet motors.

There seems to be overunity like in my experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 when the magnets are some distance apart, then some field lines going from pole to pole are still outside the magnets. But this overunity is not enough to overcome friction. Maybe it is possible to achieve continuous rotation, like with magnet bearings, but this is not important theoretically, as it can be shown that there is overunity more easily. And it has no importance whatsoever practically, as the propulsion is so small that it can barely make it rotate. Maybe an effective show to these who don't believe, but i don't know how much the people who don't understand a simple experiment with disk and magnets, should be convinced.

I really made a conclusion that magnets are no way to go, after doing my experiment above. I concluded that the overunity that can be achieved with magnets, is too small for any power generation. And i achieved the theoretical goal, in finding that there is overunity, so i saw no reason to go ahead. So i switched to experiments with a coil and induction http://overunity.com/14925/negative-discharge-effect/#.VdCK7NcuviY where i see there really is a perspective of some power generation. The experiments which i think really makes sense to do, but i cannot afford to do them any more. That is, i now have all the equipment, but i cannot afford the time spent to it.

I mean, what should be the advantages of these magnet motors? That they are simple. But now, when going very far, i would say these experiments are not more simple any more than the experiments with coil, and at that they appear to be much more expensive.

So good luck to all of you, i really appreciate the efforts to still try the last possibilities what concerns the magnet motors. But i also think that it is likely a waste of effort, with much too little benefit, an effort which likely would give much more results, if made in the more promising fields such as coils.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #102 on: August 16, 2015, 04:05:52 PM »
The  magnetic-field  produced by an  electrical-wire( carrying DC current ) would also contain  an  'Electric-Field'. 
(  there's a  wikipedia page for  'Electric-Field'   )

An   electrical-current   in a wire would also produce   'An Electric-Field' ,    which is actually different from a magnetic-field (  even though they are unified in the special-theory-of-relativity ).   

   Think of how the end of one wire ( connected to a battery ) can detect the nearby other end of another wire ( connected to the same battery ),  so that it knows when to spark it's current  across to the end of the other wire,    or think of   lightning-clouds etc.

And,  I assume this  'Electric-Field'  could also be moving,  in a direction I'm not sure of.

The  'Electric-Field'  may  also interact  with a permanent-magnet  in some way,  SO THAT SHOULD BE TESTED,  A TEST TO SEE how an  PURE  'Electric-Field'  interacts with a  permanent-magnet .
___________________

If you achieve  'properly magnetizing'  a  'donut-shaped-magnet( toroidal permanent-magnet)'  made of,   for example,   tiny-spheres-of-iron,  and fine sand,   then the results would be either of the possibilities below  :

    ( 1 ) -  The  individual   tiny-spheres-of-iron   will have those same   magneti-field  lines you see in the diagrams of  bar-magnets .
            (  But at this very small scale,  the   merge-points  may not be as visible to another magnet it is intended to interact with  )

    ( 2 ) -  If the  individual   tiny-spheres-of-iron  are  close enough to  each other ( on average, in the mixture )  and if that distance was was  'Just The Right Distance',   then some of their   magnetic-flow   would  flow to the  next   tiny-sphere-of-iron,  and go right around the donut-magnet ,     and,   the rest of their  magnetic-flow  would behave the same as the  diagrams of  bar-magnets  .

   So,  you could try and prove if   'Scenario ( 2 )'  is possible,   by finding if   'Just The Right Distance'  can be found in  a  ring  made  of  individual  'flattish-round-magnets'  spaced apart with just air or some material,   the benefit of this method is that you could constantly change the distances between the magnets,  with your hands.
_____________________________

If I could,  I would get a  'donut-shaped-object'   made of  iron( I don't know what alloy ),    I would then somehow use another   'very-powerfull-permanet-magnet'   to induce  a   magnetic-flow   to go in  one direction  around  the   'donut-shaped-bject',    and then on the other side of the   'donut-shaped-bject'  I would make it interact  with  a third  magnet  to see if any  unexplained  movement  can be produced.

______________________________

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #103 on: August 16, 2015, 05:26:07 PM »
Apples and oranges.  The keeper is a highly permeable block that changes the field concentration.  It dramatically changes the magnetic path length.   Energizing or deenergizing a magnet does not change the magnetic path.  It changes the magnetic excitation.

The keeper is closing the magnetic loop to retain the loop inside the magnet. It's the same as bending the magnet ends to make a closed loop so the external field is reduced to near zero.
Quote
There is a world of difference between zero and some.  The more permeable the material the less the leakage.  But there is always leakage.  If you go get an iron pipe and energize a wire running through it, yes the leakage will be low, but it will still be there.  You have been wondering if you can get a PM to produce the same field pattern as a copper wire.  The answer is yes.  The material having a higher permeability than copper means that the model is of a powered copper wire inside a core of that permeability.
I agree there is some leakage, but the more circular and consistent the field is, the less leakage exists.
Quote
Yes, and so what?  The first requirement is that you can get the same field shape.  The second is retaining the shape.  If your objection is that a field will concentrate in highly permeable material, that has nothing to do with being able to magnetize in a circular pattern or not per se.  Since you would like most of the field to remain outside the core, then that is a matter of materials choice.  You could for example sinter a core of powdered ferrite magnet or ceramic magnet material so as to greatly reduce the permeability, and thereby greatly increase the proportion of the field that extends beyond the core circumference.
That entire magnetic weld tester is dependent on the flaws to cause more field leakage, that's how it works. Without the flaws there is near zero leakage.
The permeability of the core changes nothing, a ring of weak magnets leaks the same as a ring of strong magnets.
Quote
You are going to need to explain why you think that would be so.  I don't see where such a conclusion follows at all. 

A motor operates by repeatedly changing the location of the potential energy minimum.  Moving the PE minimum location when the system is at any location other than the new minimum takes work.  Some of that work, and in a well-designed motor almost all of that work, conveys to the motor mechanical output.

If all motors worked on that principal then there would not be any reason to pursue the circular field.
However that is not the case in a Faraday motor using only a single field of uniform strength.
A single conductors circular field will direct more flux from the uniform field to one side of the conductor without itself interacting with the uniform field. This imbalance is what pushes the conductor in a continuous circular path in the uniform field as the field tries to maintain uniform spacing.
 
If a magnet could be made to produce the field of a conductor with current, it would be a simple matter to replace the conductor and have a fully permanent magnet motor.
 
 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2015, 05:44:42 PM »

The keeper is closing the magnetic loop to retain the loop inside the magnet. It's the same as bending the magnet ends to make a closed loop so the external field is reduced to near zero.
You are saying almost the same thing.  The small but important distinction is that it keeps most, not all of the flux within the magnet and the keeper.
Quote

I agree there is some leakage, but the more circular and consistent the field is, the less leakage exists.That entire magnetic weld tester is dependent on the flaws to cause more field leakage, that's how it works. Without the flaws there is near zero leakage.
I agree.  But the point is that the field can be shaped the way that you want, which is Step 1.  Step 2. is to get the field to persist in that pattern with the power turned off.  And Step 3. is to get a useful amount of the flux to distribute outside the core.  Step 1 has been shown as in the inspection methods.  Steps 2 and 3 are matters of material selection and coming up with a strong enough magnetizing field.
Quote

The permeability of the core changes nothing, a ring of weak magnets leaks the same as a ring of strong magnets. 
Oh, no that is just not true.  Go get two toroids, one made of a power ferrite with a uR of 2000 or so, and another made of powdered iron with a uR of 50 excite them well below the saturation of the ferrite and compare the leakage.
Quote

If all motors worked on that principal then there would not be any reason to pursue the circular field.
I contend that principle is fundamental to all electromechanical actuator designs, not just motors.  You are of course free to argue differently.
Quote

However that is not the case in a Faraday motor using only a single field of uniform strength.
A single conductors circular field will direct more flux from the uniform field to one side of the conductor without itself interacting with the uniform field. This imbalance is what pushes the conductor in a continuous circular path in the uniform field as the field tries to maintain uniform spacing.
I contend that if you do the math, you will find that as long as the motor runs, the conductor never reaches a state of minimum potential but does constantly move towards it.  The position of minimum potential constantly moves with the conductor. 
Quote

If a magnet could be made to produce the field of a conductor with current, it would be a simple matter to replace the conductor and have a fully permanent magnet motor.
That I completely disagree with.  Perhaps this will help:  In order to sustain the current through the conductor, over and above the I*R voltage drop, the power source has to overcome the BEMF.  The useful power conveyed through the motor is limited to the product of the torque generating current and the BEMF voltage.  So, if you make a permanent magnet emulate the field from a wire, in this particular case a straight wire, then you eliminate the I2R losses of the motor, but do nothing to replace the torque current * BEMF product.  That's what PMDC motors do: Eliminate the copper losses associated with creating a magnetic field.  The power that is conveyed through the motor still has to be supplied from the outside, PMs or no PMs.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #104 on: August 16, 2015, 05:44:42 PM »

 

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