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Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 65181 times)

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2015, 01:09:51 AM »
The difference between the magnetic field from a conductor with current is different only in that it is a primary field.
What that means is that the field is circular and radiates in a circular path outward from the conductor without any merge points when placed in an external field.
This is the same as the field generated in the atoms of the permanent magnet before they combine to form a secondary combined field.
If you wind the conductor on a core and combine the primary fields to form the secondary fields, then the field is exactly the same as the permanent magnets.
 
Now because the secondary field flows from an object which has combined many primary fields, there are merge positions where additional field vectors will combine or merge to strengthen the established secondary field.
 
Once the field is a secondary field, there is no way to convert back to the primary without additional work.
 
I knew this before building the simulated conductor so I could test to see if there were any similarities between the two and if there were ways to increase the effect.
There are some effects that appear similar but appear not to be useful. Attraction to the edge of a magnet is stronger one way than the other but no actual rotation effect is noticed.
During this experiment I had a thought about applying something I noticed to another experiment I was doing, so it may have returned something of value but unknown as of now.
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2015, 01:09:51 AM »

Offline MagnaProp

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2015, 10:30:25 AM »
I tried to get  'scientifically qualified people'  to answer...
I don't qualify but your 2D images look similar to me. If we could shield one half of the permanent magnet with metal then bismuth, it might look more like magnetism from a wire that goes in one direction. That's only in 2D though.

The permanent magnet field in 3D is more like a wire that is connected to its self as in a ring or toroid shape which messes things up for us. So a permanent magnet is like having two wires next to each other with the current traveling in opposite directions, which would end up in no movement in a unidirectional motor.


Offline MagnaProp

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2015, 11:23:09 AM »
Or have two permanent magnets together but place a shield in between them so the magnetism still has to go the long way around to their respective poles. Don't want the flux taking the short route of going into their neighbors poles.

The blue is metal to soak up the half of the magnetic field we don't want radiating out and the red is a plate of bismuth to keep the two magnets and their fields separated.


Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2015, 04:07:27 PM »
The problem is not the shape, but the fact that it's a field passing through another object or a combined secondary field.
This leaves an open merge point where another field is attracted into the object.
There are no merge points in the field around a conductor, (essentially no attraction to an outside field)

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2015, 05:16:13 AM »
I'm not sure why this could not be possible, but why not re-magnetize some small cylinder magnets by placing a strong current through them so they would produce a field like a conductor.

If the domains could remain in that condition then it might possibly produce the same field as a conductor with current, only without any current!
A stack of these magnets would then rotate correctly as in a Faraday motor.

This will be my next test after the one in process, unless someone knows why this is impossible to achieve.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2015, 05:16:13 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2015, 05:32:14 PM »
To re-magnetize a small cylinder magnet to the polarity of a conductor with current, maybe a process similar to this.
1: Apply low voltage high current AC down the length of the cylinder magnet until the Curie temperature is reached and the AC has erased all previous magnetism.
2: Apply low voltage high current DC and simultaneously cool in water.
 
If everything works as planned and the domains are correctly magnetized, the circular field would be maintained without current.
If this was possible, we would probably already have free energy magnetic motors.

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2015, 11:50:01 PM »
It seems the best way to demagnetize a neodymium magnet is to stick it to a piece of silicon steel and warm with a torch until it falls off.
One dead magnet!
Still no luck trying to magnetize them like a conductor but there are a few things to try yet before I move on.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2015, 11:50:01 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #82 on: August 10, 2015, 03:18:44 AM »
It seems the best way to demagnetize a neodymium magnet is to stick it to a piece of silicon steel and warm with a torch until it falls off.
One dead magnet!
Still no luck trying to magnetize them like a conductor but there are a few things to try yet before I move on.
You have to overcome their coercive force with a big enough field.  The field doesn't have to persist for long.  Capacitor discharge is the most common method used.  The size of the capacitor depends on how low you can get the inductance.  The only caution is that you should use a pulse rated capacitor, and the whole thing should be put behind an explosion proof barrier.

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #83 on: August 10, 2015, 04:45:02 PM »
Reaching the coercive force does appear to be a problem. I originally demagnetized it so I would be able to see any indication of the new magnetization direction but there is no noticeable new field.

Usually a coil can be wound to provide the magnetizing field by a capacitor bank discharge, but to generate a field in such a way as to magnetize a cylinder with a field like a conductor makes it difficult to reach the coercive force.

The idea is to achieve a circular field like a segment of a conductor with a current flowing through it, in a cylinder magnet.
Just pumping a current through the magnet is either not generating a field inside the magnet, or is no where near the coercive force required to retain the field.

I thought a bit about winding a coil to achieve the correct field and I'm not sure it's possible. (toroidal maybe)

Still looking for some clues.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2015, 09:17:48 PM »
Reaching the coercive force does appear to be a problem. I originally demagnetized it so I would be able to see any indication of the new magnetization direction but there is no noticeable new field.

Usually a coil can be wound to provide the magnetizing field by a capacitor bank discharge, but to generate a field in such a way as to magnetize a cylinder with a field like a conductor makes it difficult to reach the coercive force.

The idea is to achieve a circular field like a segment of a conductor with a current flowing through it, in a cylinder magnet.
Just pumping a current through the magnet is either not generating a field inside the magnet, or is no where near the coercive force required to retain the field.

I thought a bit about winding a coil to achieve the correct field and I'm not sure it's possible. (toroidal maybe)

Still looking for some clues.
If you want the field to look the same as if a current runs down the central axis, then running a magnetizing current through the central axis is what you need to do.  You might be able to make it work by placing the magnet inside a copper tube just barely larger than the magnet and then pulsing the tube length-wise.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #84 on: August 10, 2015, 09:17:48 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #85 on: August 10, 2015, 11:10:36 PM »
If you want the field to look the same as if a current runs down the central axis, then running a magnetizing current through the central axis is what you need to do.  You might be able to make it work by placing the magnet inside a copper tube just barely larger than the magnet and then pulsing the tube length-wise.
I tried current directly through the magnet and the magnet inside a copper tube, but nothing.
I used a 51,000 MFD capacitor charged to 30V and direct discharge with less than 2" leads. Crack!
But still nothing.
I have two of those capacitors and they are rated 40V but I have no way to know how close that gets to the required coercive force to retain the field.
Probably will keep increasing the power until something changes unless there is a way to calculate the requirement.
It's bound to be very high because the field generated is not increased by winding additional loops like in a coil and in fact may be impossible to reach before the copper tube or magnet simply vaporizes.
 
 

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2015, 05:18:26 PM »
It does appear that a magnet either cannot be magnetized to generate a circular field or the field simply is contained inside the magnet.

Logically, the field is simply retained within the core the same as connecting several magnets to form a ring or even placing a keeper on a magnet and retaining the field within the magnet.

Just pondering why a conductor is so different I might think that a field is generated in the conductor core which pushes the moving electrons outward to the skin of the wire where another field is generated outside the wire in the air.

One field inside pushing electrons outward, another field outside expanding into the air.
If this were true it would be impossible to generate the same field by permanent magnets.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #87 on: August 15, 2015, 04:25:53 PM »
.

Offline guest1289

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #88 on: August 15, 2015, 04:44:03 PM »
.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2015, 04:49:43 PM »
It does appear that a magnet either cannot be magnetized to generate a circular field or the field simply is contained inside the magnet.

Logically, the field is simply retained within the core the same as connecting several magnets to form a ring or even placing a keeper on a magnet and retaining the field within the magnet.

Just pondering why a conductor is so different I might think that a field is generated in the conductor core which pushes the moving electrons outward to the skin of the wire where another field is generated outside the wire in the air.

One field inside pushing electrons outward, another field outside expanding into the air.
If this were true it would be impossible to generate the same field by permanent magnets.
Why don't you try using a lower coercivity material?  If the idea is to find out whether something can be magnetized to emulate the field that surrounds a wire, then a piece of iron or steel rod may be the way to go.  Then you can do an iron filing pattern test to see if the field persists as it should even though it will be weak.  Other experiments could include running a wire much longer than the diameter of a washer through the middle, and then energizing and deenergizing the wire.  The other thing that you should watch out for is that your magnetizer current doesn't oscillate thereby making something of a degausser.  A fast diode across the wire ends should take care of that.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #89 on: August 15, 2015, 04:49:43 PM »

 

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