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Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 51811 times)

Offline shylo

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2015, 01:16:05 AM »
To see if I see OU, You can never see OU, It's endless, it's infinite.
How could you ever see the end?
I like what your saying though, makes sense to me.
artv

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2015, 01:16:05 AM »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2015, 05:53:22 PM »
Thank you Shylo.

I forgot to say. He said that this ring magnet which he magnetized as a whole, and later split, was from an old loudspeaker. By the texture of the metal from where it was cut, it looks like alnico, but may be iron or some other alloy.

Yes this didn't look like a fake. There is no way to prove in a video that something is not fake, but it was not likely, or then it was very well made.

Anyway, ring magnets from some old loudspeakers, demagnetize them, and then magnetize them in a circular way, this seems to be the best way to achieve a circular field. I guess for that the magnet shouldn't be magnetized very strongly, as this may increase the undesired interactions and distort the field. Also maybe the ring magnet has to be thick, though not sure. Most horseshoe magnets have additional poles, so the question is how to avoid that.

A ring magnet from an old loudspeaker, magnetized in a circular way. Make it to rotate, bearings in the middle, and put a pole of another magnet near it. When the field is really circular, the ring magnet starts to rotate. This is all what is necessary for a permanent magnet motor. If the field is really circular, that is. This video gives some hope, plus the things seen or heard that some have already made such devices.

Capacitors, i guess he charged capacitors, and put them in series, to get higher voltage for magnetization.

Interesting why he didn't try the interaction of two of these ring magnets. If  that theory of the other component of a magnetic field were true, the circularly magnetized ring magnets had to repulse each other, when put near each other with their flat surfaces.

Ring magnet, yes, has to be ring magnet, because it's the easiest to wind a coil on it to magnetize it in a circular way.

The only way by now i think a continuously rotating permanent magnet motor is possible.

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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2015, 04:56:41 PM »
The images below are from that video, a circularly magnetized old speaker magnet (iron or alnico) does not attract a paper clip, but the same magnet does, when cut to half.

About demagnetizing a metal magnet, what can i think. The temperature of a gas flame is said to be approximately 2000 celsius, 3000 f i guess. If there is no gas flame, maybe putting it on a burning charcoal is enough. It supposed to be demagnetized, that is the temperature is some 900 c, when it glows clearly red. Maybe it can also be demagnetized electrically, when magnetizing it in an opposite direction, but i'm not exactly sure in that.

Offline Jim36

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #33 on: May 29, 2015, 05:38:31 PM »
Ayeaye,

Yes the material can be demagnetised electrically. This wouldn't be required though as you can just re-magnetise it the way you require, rather than de-magnetising and re-magnetising. The material has a cocervicity point, this is the strength of magnetic field intensity required to demagnetise the material (in amps/meter) this is also the point to re-magnetise. This is what the BH curve of a magnetic material is all about, have a look into it. Wind it the way you want it magnetising (in this case toroidal winding style) and if low resistant wire is used and correct amount of ampere  turns are made to exceed the cocervicity point it can be re-magnetise with a battery. I will make an attempt this weekend and post the results here.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2015, 10:14:27 PM »
Thanks Jim36, great.

So it looks like that re-magnetization of these ring magnets is quite doable with means almost all people can afford.

One thing about this paper clip experiment though. It likely really is how it is shown in that video. But then this paper clip experiment is not enough to show that the field is completely circular. When the ring magnet is split, the field concentrates to poles, so the poles can lift a paper clip. But when the ring magnet is a whole, this field distributes more evenly around the magnet, this is certain, and no one has ever questioned it.

But then there may be additional poles, like say there are some 10 of them. The paper clip experiment really works the way it is shown, because each of these 10 additional poles are weaker than the poles when the ring magnet is split. Yet with 10, or even with 20 or more additional poles, the field is not completely circular, and thus the magnet will not rotate continuously.

The ring magnets in that video are also quite weak, alnico or iron, but likely a material which doesn't provide a lot of force. Like some horseshoe magnets, also alnico or iron, they can barely lift a paper clip. With so weak magnets, the difference between lifting a paper clip and not lifting a paper clip comes easily, because the magnet can barely lift a paper clip.

So this video doesn't really show more than is obvious, the field sure distributes more when the ring magnet is a whole. Thus this video does not prove really anything, shows nothing more than is already known.

Saying that, i still think that magnetizing a ring magnet is the best possible way to achieve a circular field, and may be the only way when a completely circular field is even possible.

The working device which i saw as a kid was also likely made that way, if that was not a dream as i said. It was nothing but a ring magnet, similar to that in that video. It rotated on some bearings, and another magnet was held against the side of it with pliers. This other magnet was like a small segment of a ceramic ring magnet, held against it as i remember, with a flat side, that is pole, towards the ring magnet. When the other magnet was close, the ring magnet rotated very fast. As i said, maybe it was a dream.

Nevertheless, it is worth to try, as it is not tested yet, and it is not entirely excluded that it may work.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2015, 10:14:27 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2015, 09:20:28 PM »
Magnetizing is not that easy i think, like they use 8000 amperes to magnetize the common neodymium magnets. 8000 amperes, though only for a brief moment. For magnetizing such weaker magnet, so much current is not necessary, yet i think it needs quite a lot. If one has a welding transformer, then this might do the thing. I'm not sure though whether a wire from a power cable is enough for a coil, certainly not anything thinner.

This guy used capacitors to get 300 volts, then discharged them through the welding fuse and the coil. This doesn't say much about the current, except that the current used for welding is as much as i know at least 100 amperes, very common is several hundred amperes. Apparently this was enough for magnetizing his ring magnet, though likely very weakly.

Capacitors, this may be because the house fuse doesn't let through as many amperes as necessary. When the current comes from capacitors, then that's not a problem. I guess he filled capacitors with 320 volts from three phases he could get. So then one needs a big capacitor, at least.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2015, 11:46:00 PM by ayeaye »

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2015, 04:55:03 AM »
One might just punch out some ring magnets from a rubber magnetic strip and then magnetize them by rotating them between two neodymium magnets.
Sounds a bit easier.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #36 on: June 01, 2015, 04:55:03 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #37 on: June 01, 2015, 10:52:15 AM »
One might just punch out some ring magnets from a rubber magnetic strip and then magnetize them by rotating them between two neodymium magnets.
Sounds a bit easier.
Right but, may be the worst option. Likely too weak, and a low quality material which is the most likely to produce additional poles, the very thing that should be avoided.

All the problem about magnet motors is to have more positive force than friction, see my experiment and repeat it, you may see there is overunity https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 . Means, with no friction, even such chain of magnets would rotate continuously, even without the field being completely circular. But without enough asymmetry, the overunity is not enough to overcome friction. The circular field is the most asymmetric, that is, an ideal case where in the field lines chain there are no field lines in the opposite direction. Also the Faraday's homopolar motor, which Jim36 described here, works because of the circular magnetic field. So that a continuous rotation with a circular field is possible, is already known.

We are in a very difficult situation here. We supposed to go to the extreme with something, with the highest quality, to see the maximum which is achievable. And at the same time we supposed to do that cheaper than most of the ordinary things are made, so that many can repeat it. And in such conditions no one knowingly has succeeded to achieve continuous rotation. Maybe some people call that a proof that there cannot be overunity, but to me it sounds more like a self-proving argument.

Furthermore, it has been made more difficult. Namely, overunity has been made like some all in one effort. Means, the only thing considered valuable, is when a single person solves it all, and maybe even provides some practical benefit to the rest of humanity. Means no one gets any benefit from any intermediate research, necessary to achieve the end goal. Means some do some work not to talk for free, but also without any acknowledgement. One may say many reasons why this is exactly how it should be, but still it seems like a kind of extreme milking. Plus plenty of hoaxes and hypes, promoted because some get money by lies. To distract just almost everyone who otherwise could contribute to the research. All that, no wonder, makes that great final result impossible in the reality.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2015, 01:48:36 PM by ayeaye »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2015, 12:34:17 AM »
One might just punch out some ring magnets from a rubber magnetic strip and then magnetize them by rotating them between two neodymium magnets.
Sounds a bit easier.
If you want to try it, sure do. I have nothing against experiments. I think it will not work, but then i may be wrong.

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2015, 09:13:15 PM »
Hi Ayeaye,

You can emulate a circular field in a ferromagnetic tube by using two magnets with poles flipped next to each other.

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2015, 09:13:15 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2015, 11:34:16 PM »
Hi DreamThinkBuild,

Thanks, great. I can make a cube out of 8 of my small rectangular magnets, which would be similar to that inside the tube. But i don't have a ferromagnetic tube. I have nothing ferromagnetic with the shape of tube, that is. Maybe that idea together with that rubber magnet idea by Lumen may work. If it is possible to demagnetize a magnet tape, or magnetize it circularly, then it may serve as a ferromagnetic tube. But this is just what i happened to think when reading this thread again, i'm not sure in that at all.

I don't say at all that it will not work, and i don't want to discourage anyone from experimenting. But the problem with that, i think, is this. A ferromegnetic tube, if it is thin, it has no effect whatsoever. But when it is thick, more than 10 mm or such, then it effectively screens the inner magnets from the outside magnet. What a ferromagnetic material does i think, is that it takes the field lines into itself, and thereby screens them for anything outside. So inside the wall of that tube there likely will be a quite circular field, maybe also somewhat outside the tube, but there it may be much too weak. But then, a positive force strong enough to overcome the friction, is all what the problem is about.

This topic seems to interest many, but then no one seems to have a proper means to really try it, such as a welding transformer. People used to think permanent magnet motors are easier to make, than other overunity devices. Maybe right about just showing overunity, like my experiment https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 , but what concerns a real continuous rotation, they may need much more resources. Maybe after all, solid state devices with a coil like this https://archive.org/details/ndischarge are much easier to make by people with limited resources, than permanent magnet motors.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 11:31:52 AM by ayeaye »

Offline lumen

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2015, 05:04:35 PM »
I think that if one could magnetize in a circular path, then the field might be fully contained within the magnet.
If there was any field leakage it would diverge away and no longer be circular.
 
That doesn't mean that this could not work as there could be some tendency to divert an incoming field in the same manner as a current carrying conductor.
 
The rubber magnet rings might work well because they magnetize easily and could be stacked to simulate a conductor with current.
If the working field was weak enough to prevent them form re-magnetizing they might work as a simple test.
 
 


Offline Jim36

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2015, 11:02:55 PM »
Sorry for no activity, been working lots,

Yes I see what you are saying aye aye, regarding magnetising materials requires very high current, I still haven't had chance to experiment with re-magnetising a loud speaker magnet. I know that usually high current is required but there was an interesting post put on this thread with a video from Jason Verbelli showing 'Perpetual Magnetic Current' he turned Steel into a permanent magnet with low current, though I don't know the details of the steel used as this may be explained by normal physics if it has a relatively low cocervicity.

As for a circular magnetic fields, if the material is magnetised in this way a few factors will minimise flux leakage or extra poles as you mention, the surface of the material needs to be quite smooth, I found this out when I made my own circular magnet which had dimples in it, these areas had flux / poles in the air. Also magnetic flux follows the easiest path (low reluctance) air has a high reluctance, so if the tubes are made well enough I think flux leakage/poles shouldn't be real problem. you mentioned the flux is kept within the material so an external field will ignore the flux inside the material, this is not the case the external field will interact with any field or any substance appropriately, if this didn't happen then a new discovery in science has been found at least!

Ayeaye, this is not the only project i'm working on as I'm also working on a new type of transformer (I've done about 1 years experimenting with coils and custom transformer geometries) this motor will hopefully spin a generator to power the transformer, the transformer design is such that the secondary doesn't create back EMF / MMF so to tap from the ether. Not much torque will be required from the motor. This is all hypothetical obviously but I have come across some strange phenomena which has pointed me to do this. It is too early to post the work here as there is a lot of detail, but I am passing the information to another trusted group so if it works I'm not the only holder of the information, this is why i'm posting the permanent magnet homopolar motor here as it is has much less detail. I've actually purchased the circular tube magnets from a manufacture so will be working on building the motor ready for when they turn up. They believe that the magnets can be made to this degree, I suppose I will find out soon enough. 

Jim

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2015, 11:27:40 PM »
Great, Jim36.

I have a strange phenomenon too, in my experiment. But in fact it is not a strange phenomenon, it it induction, the way it is known to happen, just has not been used properly. When a small current starts in a coil, then this induces an increasing magnetic field, and this induces voltage. And how great this voltage is, depends on how fast the current is switched on. Very low current may induce quite high voltage, it's as simple as that. But this is not about permanent magnet motors.

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Offline Jim36

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2015, 11:45:57 PM »
Good luck with your project,

There is some interesting stuff around, I've heard of resonance switching before which may be linked with what you are talking about (switching on and off power without mosfets) as silicon switches are not meant to be as clean cut? This giving a very sharp increase in voltage and then somehow resonance is used to aid? If I can find the video I will post it for you.

Cheers

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2015, 11:45:57 PM »

 

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