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Author Topic: Permanent magnet motor  (Read 51813 times)

Offline Jim36

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2015, 10:33:51 PM »
Hi Webby,

I found a company in the states that can make it as one hole magnet! Though the material is FeCrCo not neodymium as I would of liked, I need to check the properties of this material.
What is a PMH? I’ve thought about making my own but I would have to find the blank magnetic material to do so.

Hi Ayeaye,

You might be correct, my design might not work and I may have to resort back to a ‘standard’ homopolar design, who knows I will play? The conventional interaction of magnetic fields may be incorrect for homopolar motor?

I understand your design and it could work too, I see what you mean by using a large cylinder / tube magnet so to keep only one half of the magnet in the stator field. Thanks for the additional idea as I had not thought of that one. I don’t think there is a problem with bearings as these type of magnets do not have a field external to the material so the bearings are not attracted.

You may off seen something like that when you were a kid or it could have been a dream? When I spoke to my father about what I’m doing, he claims to have seen something similar years ago (when working as telecoms engineer at a property in the sticks) the guy showed him and said it has been spinning for a few years? These glimpses may give us the ‘energy’ to keep pursuing the goal! 

Jim

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2015, 10:33:51 PM »

Offline webby1

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2015, 12:02:18 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFwXdRddvwQ

Here is a 15 minute video,, it is kind of long but shows the PMH,, Permanent Motion Holder,, Ed L. considered the magnetic field to be in motion and this setup seems to trap that motion internally.

I would be concerned as to how they would be polarizing it,, seeing that it is "charged" between a N and S plate.

In some old copiers there is a round long magnet and it is used for alignment and focus and stuff,, or something like that,, this magnet is made solid with a central shaft hole but has several poles on it of different arc coverages,, but there is an external N and S facing pole,,

A small note,, the physical center of a PM may NOT be the field center.  Also, the field center can be pushed by an outside source.

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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2015, 09:04:10 AM »
I tried it a bit with magnets and my disc, it didn't seem to work. This is not the best device to experiment though, as i cannot hold things in place. If you can make the magnetic field of the stator magnet on my drawing, perfectly circular, then it has the best chance to work, as circular is perfectly asymmetric. It is like a magnet where you can imagine the pole to be anywhere on that circle, and everywhere the field lines are only on one side of that pole. But i doubt that it is possible to achieve so circular field with permanent magnets.

How should this design be named? This could be named a homopolar  magnet motor, but then it would mistakenly thought to be a homopolar motor, as this has a magnet as well. So maybe it's better to name it a one pole magnet motor, to distinguish the two.

I have only used magnets to show overunity, for which they are good. But i have thought that magnets and electromagnets cannot be used for generating any continuous energy. For that i thought the solid state experiments using a coil, such as my "negative discharge effect" experiment, are the way to go, and worth the effort.

I noticed also when hanging a small magnet from a thread, then it started to circle the pole of the big magnet quite intensively. But then i couldn't get any good results when fixing the thread somewhere. It was very difficult to hold the magnet in any one position, when hanging it from a thread. Nice toy though.

But if the one pole magnet motor or such is what you want to try, then good luck. I think then at first you should make a test device, which enables to put the small magnet to different positions.

Offline Jim36

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2015, 05:52:48 PM »
Webby,
Great video thanks, I’ve watched some of JV’s stuff he’s doing great things! The PMH is very interesting and I’ve never seen that winding technique. This could be something done with a laptop power supply EMI ferrite tube, though I don’t know if the ferrite material will produce the same effect? Something I could try out.

Ayeaye,
Call it the homopolar ‘permanent’ magnet motor? Anyway that can be taken care of if it works. I will do further investigating before building a prototype and post on here the results.

Jim


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2015, 05:09:28 AM »
Jim36,

Fleming's rules are about induction of magnetic field from electrostatic field, and vice versa, they are not about interaction between magnetic fields. Yet now i'm not sure that your original design would not work. And this is because something new which i maybe found about magnetic fields.

This is only how it seems to me, based on trying things with my i hope sensible hands, it is no way conclusive. It looks like that a cylinder magnet rotates around its axis, when another cylinder magnet (stator) is placed near it with the same poles facing each other, as shown on the drawing below. The upper drawing shows the directions of force to the field lines, can it be called some kind of right hand rule?

I couldn't make such device, because i have no bearings or anything, to make anything such to rotate. The rotating force was quite noticeable, as much i could feel by hand. I used 10 10mm ceramic disc magnets and 10 25mm ceramic disc magnets, all 5mm thick, to make these cylinder magnets.

The magnet hanging from the thread and rotating around the other magnet, as shown on the drawing right below, seems to work exactly on the same principle. I think i have seen this experiment in one video, though nothing was said about magnets or their polarity, and the thread was held by hand. Which made the experiment not valid, because everything can be done with a slight movements of hand, and thus no one has taken such things seriously, at best it has been seen as a toy.

I hanged the thread from my lamp, so i didn't hold it in hand. But the hanging magnet seemed to try to always face the other magnet with the same side. This twisted the thread and finally it stopped. I don't know how to prevent the thread from twisting.

So i think this should be tested, if there are any mechanical means to make things to rotate. Because if it really provides a continuous rotation, then it would be something really great, no doubt. But if and only if such test would be positive, of course. Seems too good to be true i know, but then this necessarily doesn't mean that it cannot be true. And the rotating force has to be enough for continuous rotation, for it to be any worth.

I would call this design a rotating pole motor or a revolving pole motor. It is homopolar. As this thread is in the subforum of theories of overunity, then it is appropriate for the discussion of general theory of overunity in magnet motors, i think.

Errata: The left magnet on the top view below should rotate clockwise. The hanging magnet should rotate counter-clockwise.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 01:52:05 PM by ayeaye »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2015, 05:09:28 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2015, 01:00:54 PM »
Like that?

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2015, 06:50:26 PM »
Small ceramic bearings are tougher than steel ones and are quite common these days. 

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2015, 06:50:26 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2015, 08:59:08 PM »
Thank you Mscoffman, very important information.

Theory in case if it works. If there is a repulsion force to a pole, then the direction of the force to the field line affected by the repulsion, is 90 degrees from the direction of the field line, considering its direction, when looking towards the magnet to the direction of the axis of the magnet. This is in addition to the other forces known in the magnetic field. Weird. And this is all the explanation there is.

Or maybe Jim36 or anyone else can explain it more.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2015, 09:04:40 PM »
I tried to make it in a simple way. A hook made of paperclip, hanging from somewhere, and on it rotates a small cardboard disc. From that hang two magnets, with north poles against the north pole of the stator magnet. The thread was fixed to the magnets with a mounting tape. Cannot be made that way, friction is too great, cannot be made any way.

I have nothing to make such thing from. Needs some very good bearings, whatever they would be. And yes, the force is likely greater, the closer the revolving magnets are to the stator magnet. But this again needs some stronger construction.

I hope that Jim36, when he tries his magnets with a circular field, would also test this design. Because when it is made similar to the homopolar motor, the mechanical design is the same. Or is it? We see then which of these work, if any. The most likely reason for them not to work i think, is again that the force is not great enough for continuous rotation.

But who can do that and is willing, please test it. Because this design is not tested, and it is the simplest. No matter how senseless one thinks it may be, it has to be tested for the sole reason that it is not tested, even if it fails.

Below are drawings to illustrate what i described.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2015, 11:40:38 PM by ayeaye »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2015, 09:28:30 PM »
I don't know why i started to talk about this. I tried hanging a magnet from a copper wire, hanging it from a hook, to prevent twisting the thread. No continuous rotation. If the force is there, it is so small that it is not useful. Or there is no such force, i cannot say when it's not experimentally proven.

I created a mess, sorry, try to bear with me.

The drawing revolving_poles_motor.jpg is not likely right, i think it works only when both magnets rotate. If it does that is.

But i don't think now that it's something worth trying, or worth considering. All what i said previously remains valid, it is only asymmetry of the field which can provide overunity in a magnet motor.

Jim36,

So you should try this design similar to homopolar motor, with your magnets with a circular field, your original design doesn't work, unless there is some special effect. Which i no doubt there may not be. But when made like a homopolar motor, it will rotate continuously, provided that the field lines are perfectly circular. Because this is completely asymmetric.

But, it is most likely impossible to make magnets with completely circular field. Because whenever a magnet is bent, like to half circle, some additional poles appear. And the same thing happens when one tries to make a circle using many magnets. The poles of some of these magnets become tilted. My experiments also confirm that.

So i don't want to discourage you and i really appreciate the effort. I also try sometimes senselessly much, to test a possibility not tested before, as this thread may also show. But i think most likely you cannot achieve continuous rotation. Because the additional poles make your field something else than circular, the negative forces come into play, and the positives will not be enough for continuous rotation. As my experiments show, there is overunity in permanent magnets, but not enough for continuous rotation.

So magnet motors, after all, may not be worth the effort. At least i think so by now. So it's better to switch to basic experiments with a coil, like my negative discharge effect experiment.

I'm sorry, some things not known to me confused me.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2015, 09:28:30 PM »
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Offline Jim36

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2015, 10:26:13 PM »
Hi Ayeaye,

I've been on vacation for bank holiday weekend (here in the UK) so couldn't reply.

There is no need to apologies, you have been trying some good experiments and figuring different things out, now you have come to your conclusions.

I have myself tried to make a circular field out of many small disc magnets which as you say doesn't work as you have flux leakage due to tilting. I also crushed neodymium magnets mixed them with epoxy resin set in 2 'C' molds, I then allowed the resin to set while re aligning the material with small magnets fixed on the start and finish of the 'C'. This worked better than my first attempt but still had some flux leakage (I tested for flux leakage with iron filings and a compass).

I think I will still attempt the homopolar magnet motor as I have seen a video of this type of magnet in Russian with no flux leakage.

I will post the video here once I find it again.

Jim


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2015, 05:06:55 AM »
Jim36,

I think magnets with a circular field cannot be made, and the russian video is likely a fake. But then say it's possible. Then it's obviously very difficult to make. Say you can get these magnets for $400, or maybe for $1000. You will make your device and it shall work. But what's the use of it? No one will replicate so expensive device. And these things cannot be proved, by video or by any other means. They can only be replicated. So what's the sense of all the effort then, would be yet another questionable evidence, would stay somewhere and gather dust like hundreds or thousands of such devices may already do. Which may work.

This is why i say, we need something which can be made cheaply, and easily enough. So they would be replicated at least a few times. And magnet motors are evidently not such things, they are expensive to make. Except some simple devices which only show overunity, like my experiment did. So what concerns permanent magnets, then maybe it's rather better to concentrate on these. To say to these who say that there cannot be any overunity, why don't you use a few minutes of your time to try these.


Offline phoneboy

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2015, 06:14:42 AM »
@Jim36
I missed the pdf in your first post, could work or the field might just flow around the magnets and not do anything.  Interesting attempt at making your own magnets, you beat me to the punch with that.  When I thought about it I figured that you could test by simulating the magnet electrically with a squirrel cage (see pic), you would just need the cage, a variable resistor ,and a dc source.  You could also center your mold/epoxy/magnetic powder and energize the cage to form your magnet.  Also a question,  I though that crushing the neo would demagnetize the material, did it lose a lot of its strength? I had an idea for a different type of motor but it would also require me to make my own magnets.

Offline Jim36

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2015, 03:25:19 PM »
Ayeaye,

See link to video with circular magnetic field, you can see that it doesn't interact with the metal paper clip once the circle is made. True it could be fake (doesn't look it)  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTq1VNMyLYQ&feature=youtu.be

The price for these magnets are high because they have never been made by the factory before, the magnets themselves cost $37.50 each but the tooling required to make them costs $300 (for the first one only)  then shipping to the uk $60. Once the tool has been made they should only cost $37.50 from that supplier, so this isn't hugely expensive.

I have done some experiments myself with magnets, I will still attempt some of your experiments too to see if I see OU.

Phoneboy,

The squirrel cage should work, as this is electricity passing through several conductors which has already been proven with the standard homopolar motor, I'm trying to provide the same effect but without the flow of electricity.

Yes the crushed neodymium did lose a lot of strength but was still strong enough to experiment with. What was your idea for a motor? Always good to share inspiration!

Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2015, 06:31:19 PM »
Jim36,

About that video, i don't understand russian at all. He said that vector field consists of two components, rotor and divergence. In magnetic fields, divergence is completely ignored, but it is 30% of the magnetic field. It appears when magnets that attract each other are completely together, the vector is on the line between the magnets. Doesn't attract iron objects, but repulses another divergence field and electric current. When the poles of two magnets are near each other, in the area between the magnets they don't attract an iron object, but near that area they do.

He didn't say much about the material of the ring magnets he used, other than that they were metal, that is not ferrite, and magnets which they used a very long time ago. So not clear whether that magnet is iron or alnico. He put the ring magnets to oven, and heated them to 900 celsius, so they lost their magnetic properties. Then he magnetized the halves, by wrapping a coil around them (like a coil on a solenoid core), and discharging 300 volts through the coil from the capacitors, through a welding fuse. When putting these halves together, this ring magnet did not attract a paperclip. He also magnetized a whole ring magnet that way, then split it, and the properties were the same.

This resembles the cores of some transformers. They are essentially magnetized the same way. After the current is turned off, the bar which closes the core, sometimes remains attracted very strongly to the rest of the core, for many hours. Which means that the flux remains inside. What are the magnetic properties of the core in that state, i don't know.

What concerns my experiment, this one https://archive.org/details/Flcm3 , then this is a chain of magnets, the same which supposed to form a circular field, when the magnets were next to each other. The reason is the same, most of the field lines between the magnets go from pole to pole, and thus less go outside, causing what you may call a leakage of the flux. This causes asymmetry of the field at each pole, and overunity is caused by that asymmetry, i described it more thoroughly in another thread here. It looks like though that it provides the most overunity when the magnets are weak, 5 x 5 x 3 mm ceramic, and at some distance from each other. This experiment may also be done with four 7 x 7 x 5 mm ceramic magnets which one can buy more easily, but with somewhat worse results.

What is it what i talked about before here, a divergence force? I'm not sure that it is there, but then i'm also not sure that it is not. So i would prefer to omit that.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 09:02:56 PM by ayeaye »

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Re: Permanent magnet motor
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2015, 06:31:19 PM »

 

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