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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: synchro1 on May 05, 2015, 05:45:59 PM
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This video from "K&J Magnetics" shows 400 pounds of force switched on and off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPwoFnQnBPk
More information:
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MS-400
It looks like it takes a lot less then 400 pounds of force to throw the lever!
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@synchro1:
That is very interesting! Any idea how it's being done? Apparently without electricity. . .
truesearch
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@Trusearch,
The bottom photo's the "Off" position. Just simply two diametrics with steel side walls!
"Now, the cool part about a Magswitch® is that you can turn it OFF. Here’s where the magic happens.
When you rotate the knob, you’re rotating the top diametrically magnetized disc magnet by 180°. Now the magnetic field flows from one magnet, through the steel wall and into the other magnet.
The folks at Magswitch® must have done their math right, because the steel structure is shaped and sized just right to keep all of the magnetic field flowing inside the assembly. It doesn’t reach outside at all! In this position, no pull force is felt.
We've tried it ourselves, and these powerful magnets won't even pick up a single paperclip in the OFF position".
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@synchro1:
Your explanation does sound like what is going. Does that main that it takes "real" effort/force to switch from NON-ATTRACT to ATTRACT mode? I'm guessing that would simply because of the "top" magnets rotating to a REPULSION-POLE-TO-POLE arrangement in regards to the "lower" magnets. . ?? . :-\
truesearch
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It must be in contact with steel to rotate easily to the on position.
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It must be in contact with steel to rotate easily to the on position.
@Lumen,
The contact between the correctly sized steel walls and the diametric tube magnets is the central feature of this switchable mechanism. Two diametric tubes twisted one over the other, without the steel walls, would be very difficult to separate in attraction by sheer force, then they would be strongly repelled in opposition. The correctly sized steel walls solve both these problems; One, reducing the sheer force for separation; and Two, keeping the magnets attached in repulsion. The magnetic attraction to the steel is greater then the repulsion force between the opposing poles. Butch LaFonte has been demonstrating this kind of "Proof of Overunity" effect on his forum thread.
The question is; Would 400 pounds of "Pendulum Thrust" be sufficient to throw the switch?
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The ratio of switch force to pull strength is obviously overunity in this switchable magnet. This kind of "Garden variety background advance" has the potential to replace hazardous "Nuclear Fission". It's our job as a group to realize it's potential and get it to generate free power.
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@Lumen,
The contact between the correctly sized steel walls and the diametric tube magnets is the central feature of this switchable mechanism. Two diametric tubes twisted one over the other, without the steel walls, would be very difficult to separate in attraction by sheer force, then they would be strongly repelled in opposition. The correctly sized steel walls solve both these problems; One, reducing the sheer force for separation; and Two, keeping the magnets attached in repulsion. The magnetic attraction to the steel is greater then the repulsion force between the opposing poles. Butch LaFonte has been demonstrating this kind of "Proof of Overunity" effect on his forum thread.
The question is; Would 400 pounds of "Pendulum Thrust" be sufficient to throw the switch?
The correct answer is no.
The 400 pounds is only a contact force and greatly reduced at even small distances.
What I was saying is that the device must be in contact with a steel plate to operate easily, otherwise the handle will rotate much harder.
The action is similar to a standard magnetic base where the magnetic field is simply redirected and without a second path (attached to a steel plate) the rotation force increases as it pushes the already closed path into an open path.
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The correct answer is no.
The 400 pounds is only a contact force and greatly reduced at even small distances.
What I was saying is that the device must be in contact with a steel plate to operate easily, otherwise the handle will rotate much harder.
The action is similar to a standard magnetic base where the magnetic field is simply redirected and without a second path (attached to a steel plate) the rotation force increases as it pushes the already closed path into an open path.
@Lumen,
The rotor would grow flush and in close adjacency with the magnet switch at TDC, not actually attached, but nearly enough to operate easily right at that exact position. Turning back on presents a different problem. One could run a "Merry go round" with a set of these kinds of magnet switches.
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Here is some more information from Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_base (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_base)
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@sveinr,
Thanks. I uploaded some good photos: We can see how the magnet connects the ferrite keepers in the "ON" position in the bottom photo: This variety only has to throw 90º.
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Here's a Dual Switch model of that type from "StrongHand":
Adjust-O™ 90° Dual Switch Magnet Squares
Angle magnet squares with the convenience of On/Off switches.
For professional jobs that demand strong hold down forces. Hold flat and round metal work pieces.
•Two On/Off switches for independent operation.
•Turn the magnets Off when setting up, turn On when you're ready to work. Easy and safe set-up!
•Precision machined flat and V-surfaces are ideal for round and square tubing, angle, and flat stock.
•Choose from 120 - 265 LBS (55 - 120 kg) pull force.
A small servo and trigger switch would deliver 265 pounds of pull force at TDC to the ferrite rotor from one face! This model would spin a very large and heavy iron rotor. Saturation's our enemy, so slow and heavy is best. This model could probably power a large 360º pendulum. Naturally, "High Permeability" rotor material would allow for higher R.P.M. It might be possible to use both 90º magnet switch faces with an "L" shaped rotor.
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This video shows a 90º magnet base in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0vX8VTiiDg
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The Noga DG0039 1300 Newtons. Most powerful magnet switch in the Noga line: 1300 Newtons is 292.2516270323 pounds of force.
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This video shows a 90º magnet base in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0vX8VTiiDg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0vX8VTiiDg)
Yes! but the video never shows how it becomes much harder to turn to the on position when it's not on the steel surface.
In fact if you turn it half way on and remove it or tilt it on the steel surface it will switch itself to the off position due to the increased pull to the off position.
I have about four of these and they all work the same.
One would need to do some testing but I believe no OU here.
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Yes! but the video never shows how it becomes much harder to turn to the on position when it's not on the steel surface.
In fact if you turn it half way on and remove it or tilt it on the steel surface it will switch itself to the off position due to the increased pull to the off position.
I have about four of these and they all work the same.
One would need to do some testing but I believe no OU here.
@lumen,
You can see the force it takes to turn this Magnetic Base "ON" in mid air at :24 seconds into this video. It doesn't appear to be any harder then when it's on the metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZgOo8-s3w4
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The magnet switch needs to turn "OFF" fast. It can take it's time turning back "ON" while the rotor travels. This gives us the option to power the switch with step down gears for the higher force "ON" side.
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A two speed current reversing electric motor connected to a half moon gear where the switch is located and controlled by a commutator or opti-cutter would solve all the problems. It would go very fast in one direction, reverse and go more slowly in the other. The "Rack and Pinion" style gears would remain meshed.
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One would construct a device by linking *two* opposite magnetic polarity blocks back to back
with counter rotating handles. It makes me think that "hydraulics" would be the energy extractor.
like a motorcycle handbrake. A small distance but powerful mechanical movement.
A proof of concept device would be... "one stage activates next stage".. plus an inverter.. around a time delay loop.
..S..MarkSCoffman
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One would construct a device by linking *two* opposite magnetic polarity blocks back to back
with counter rotating handles. It makes me think that "hydraulics" would be the energy extractor.
like a motorcycle handbrake. A small distance but powerful mechanical movement.
A proof of concept device would be... "one stage activates next stage".. plus an inverter.. around a time delay loop.
..S..MarkSCoffman
@MarkSCoffman,
That sounds ingenious! Can you upload a schematic?
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Two magnet switches facing each other, joined at the handles, would equalize the throw force. One would turn on as the other turned off. An overhead rocker arm with swiveling plates and small gaps, would first clamp down and release on one side, then the other, as the joined switches were turned on and off. The combined ratchet force with twin Noga 0039's would be nearly 600 pounds! A hydraulic pressure system would be an enormous advantage to move the switches as mscoffman helped envision.
A two way hydraulic ram cylinder can cut the switch cost to the valve force and pressure maintenance alone. This would deliver a very high COP!
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The hydraulic cylinder is so powerful and efficient, it could easily flop a gang of two dozen magnet switches in a row for practically nothing. The twelve rocker arms could pivot the same axle. This would deliver 7200 pounds of ratchet force. A couple of spring teeth at one axle end could turn gear wheels. These wheels could in turn run valves in a much larger hydraulic cylinder, and power an entire city.
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Here's a 12 volt push pull linear actuator for 16 dollars that would probably be enough to flop a gang of "Rocker Arm" magnet switches in tandem:
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Weighting the "Rocker Arm" iron plates to offset them to the outside would keep them in touch with the magnet switch keepers, and satisfy Lumen's concern about the increased switch force from no metal contact. The plates would pivot and lift on the inside only to a maximum pull gap of an inch or so. The torque would equal close to the full rated pull force of the magnet on each end in that throw range. Thanks to mscoffman for seeding this design!
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Hi Synchro,
Here is a patent that uses rocker arms, the translation is really bad though but the images show the general idea.
CN102510242A - Permanent-magnet power machine and method for converting magnetic energy into mechanical energy
https://www.google.com/patents/CN102510242A
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Hi Synchro,
Here is a patent that uses rocker arms, the translation is really bad though but the images show the general idea.
CN102510242A - Permanent-magnet power machine and method for converting magnetic energy into mechanical energy
https://www.google.com/patents/CN102510242A
@DreamThinkBuild,
This 3 year old patent is a nearly an identical idea. Parts of it are very complex compared to the our current "Servo Magnet Switch" design. He's turning the magnets labeled "2" and "10" 180º. His power extraction involves a clutching mechanism. Well worth closer scrutiny. He has two "Reciprocators" in tandem. Good find! Thanks.
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These types of devices have been around for about 100 years. They are common in every machine shop I have ever worked in or owned.
There are called magnetic chucks.
http://www.magnetoolinc.com/chucks-sine-plates/permanent-magnetic-chucks.php (http://www.magnetoolinc.com/chucks-sine-plates/permanent-magnetic-chucks.php)
When turned on using a simple lever, they will hold steel grinding plates so hard, you can not remove them with a hammer. When turned off,
a steel ruler, or anything with iron, will have no attraction to it at all.
I have owned probably 40 of these in my lifetime. The newer, better ones are electromagnetic and are sealed so they almost never fail.
The permanent magnet type wears out eventually. Not the magnets themselves, but the mechanism that aligns/disaligns the flux lines
will get to a point that it no longer operates properly. They can be repaired but, taking one apart is very, very hard as the flux is usually aligned (on) when they fail.(Murphy's law) Coolant seeps inside past the seals eventually and this helps the internal parts wear out faster.
We had to use a forklift to take one apart.
Anyway, nothing new and I do not see how this could be used in any useful way as you need energy to switch the device on and off. Sometimes, a lot of energy.
Bill
PS The largest one we had was 12" x 36". That was a monster!
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These types of devices have been around for about 100 years. They are common in every machine shop I have ever worked in or owned.
There are called magnetic chucks.
http://www.magnetoolinc.com/chucks-sine-plates/permanent-magnetic-chucks.php (http://www.magnetoolinc.com/chucks-sine-plates/permanent-magnetic-chucks.php)
When turned on using a simple lever, they will hold steel grinding plates so hard, you can not remove them with a hammer. When turned off,
a steel ruler, or anything with iron, will have no attraction to it at all.
I have owned probably 40 of these in my lifetime. The newer, better ones are electromagnetic and are sealed so they almost never fail.
The permanent magnet type wears out eventually. Not the magnets themselves, but the mechanism that aligns/disaligns the flux lines
will get to a point that it no longer operates properly. They can be repaired but, taking one apart is very, very hard as the flux is usually aligned (on) when they fail.(Murphy's law) Coolant seeps inside past the seals eventually and this helps the internal parts wear out faster.
We had to use a forklift to take one apart.
Anyway, nothing new and I do not see how this could be used in any useful way as you need energy to switch the device on and off. Sometimes, a lot of energy.
Bill
PS The largest one we had was 12" x 36". That was a monster!
@Pirate88179,
The decisive factor is the ratio of magnetic holding strength to switch force. A magnet switch with 300 pounds of holding strength should be 10 times harder to switch then one with 30 right? I really don't know what the true relationship is. I don't believe it's a direct proportion. An increase in holding strength with a stable switch force would signal a gain possibility, right? The chiral twin switches, solenoid and rocker arm design looks pretty clean at this time. 江涌, 王龙元 are the Chinese inventors of a nearly identical concept above. The major difference between the two approaches is the 180º versus the 90º switch throw. The 90º advantage is tremendous.
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I sent an email inquiry to "Noga" and asked their engineers if their switch force increases with holding strength. We can start popping our champagne corks if they report back that it's non-proportional.
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I haven't heard back from "Noga" yet but I can assure everyone that their "Magnetic Base" employs a "Flux-Decoupling Mechanism", or it would just be a complete piece of crap, not an industrial standard. The switch must handle just the weight of the magnets, the flux redirected by steel keepers before switching. I'll get back with a report if I get a response from them.
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One would construct a device by linking *two* opposite magnetic polarity blocks back to back
with counter rotating handles. It makes me think that "hydraulics" would be the energy extractor.
like a motorcycle handbrake. A small distance but powerful mechanical movement.
A proof of concept device would be... "one stage activates next stage".. plus an inverter.. around a time delay loop.
..S..MarkSCoffman
Running one single rod down from the side of a rocker arm to drive a pump piston that pressurizes a reservoir tank is the finished product as mscoffman envisioned. The greater the holding power of the "Magnet Base", the larger the diameter of the pump piston and the greater the hydraulic P.S.I. per switch sequence. The "Flux De-Coupler" is the magic behind the enormous gain in pressure per switch flop.
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Running one single rod down from the side of a rocker arm to drive a pump piston that pressurizes a reservoir tank is the finished product as mscoffman envisioned. The greater the holding power of the "Magnet Base", the larger the diameter of the pump piston and the greater the hydraulic P.S.I. per switch sequence. The "Flux De-Coupler" is the magic behind the enormous gain in pressure per switch flop.
If you are not familiar with the magnetic chuck designs....permanent mags...it is so simple it will make you laugh. It is basically a metal basin in which sit
the magnets. There is room on one end for movement. The top plate is a combination of steel and brass in very thin layers horizontally positioned so that when the magnets underneath more to the right 1", the layers of permanent mags now all line up with the brass lines in the top. Move the handle, and the mags move back about 1", and now all line up with the steel layers. The handle to move the mags is usually about 1 foot long and does take some effort. The handle moves about 180 degrees so when coupled with the cam mechanism inside the box moves the mag about 1". It is genius really.
In a typical 8 x 18 inch chuck, the holding power is incredible. I never thought about comparing it to the force required to switch on and off but, I can assure you that the holding power would be measured in many, many hundreds of pounds. Just guessing here but maybe even close to 1,000 pounds, and that is a pretty small chuck. Of course, the surface is machined perfectly flat and if the mating surface is also machined, then it would be interesting to see just how much force it would take to break that bond.
I am not sure how one could use all of that holding power to move the switch on and off but...it is an interesting line of thinking that i have never considered before.
Bill
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If you are not familiar with the magnetic chuck designs....permanent mags...it is so simple it will make you laugh. It is basically a metal basin in which sit
the magnets. There is room on one end for movement. The top plate is a combination of steel and brass in very thin layers horizontally positioned so that when the magnets underneath more to the right 1", the layers of permanent mags now all line up with the brass lines in the top. Move the handle, and the mags move back about 1", and now all line up with the steel layers. The handle to move the mags is usually about 1 foot long and does take some effort. The handle moves about 180 degrees so when coupled with the cam mechanism inside the box moves the mag about 1". It is genius really.
In a typical 8 x 18 inch chuck, the holding power is incredible. I never thought about comparing it to the force required to switch on and off but, I can assure you that the holding power would be measured in many, many hundreds of pounds. Just guessing here but maybe even close to 1,000 pounds, and that is a pretty small chuck. Of course, the surface is machined perfectly flat and if the mating surface is also machined, then it would be interesting to see just how much force it would take to break that bond.
I am not sure how one could use all of that holding power to move the switch on and off but...it is an interesting line of thinking that i have never considered before.
Bill
@Pirate88179,
A rod would attach to one side of the rocker arm and drive a hydraulic pressure piston. Six "Noga" 0039'S in tandem, three face to face would deliver 1800 pounds of force to the piston, 900 down and 900 back off each side to pressurize the reservoir head. The six throw switches would couple to a small two way hydraulic cylinder that used merely around 5 P.S.I. The remainder of the reservoir pressure could power an alternator with another larger hydraulic cylinder. "Compressed Air" may work even better.
The monster would sit there and not only run itself, but generate electrical power to perhaps run an electrical airplane or car.
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I thought that even the cavemen understood gearing ratio. Apparently some Neanderthals have survived.
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I received the definitive email response form "Noga's Engineers":
"The switch on position activating the magnet force of the magnet and not the holding force of the arms".
Noga's Magnet Switch has a patented "Flux De-Coupler", so the ratio between switching and holding force is "Non-Proportional". This ascending power in holding force for a fixed switch force is the threshold of "Overunity".
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I thought that even the cavemen understood gearing ratio. Apparently some Neanderthals have survived.
@ACG,
A lever would help too.
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I thought that even the cavemen understood gearing ratio. Apparently some Neanderthals have survived.
Gearing does not amplify energy, it wastes it as heat due to friction. That would simply add another loss to the system.
Bill
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Doubling the magnetic force in an Electro-Magnet requires raising the input by a factor of two. Doubling the holding force of a "Magnet Switch" is practically free from the "Flux De-Coupler" advantage.
A practical approach towards motorizing the" Magnetic Holding Force" of these kinds of switches has been slow developing and is currently a "Horse and Buggy" era mechanism.
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Here's a high pressure low stroke neumatic reciprocating pump. The pump rod would hook directly to the "Rocker Arm".
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Here's another email response I got about the "Noga 0039" with 283 pounds of holding force at "Amazon":
The question was: Does the switch require more force with increased holding force?
Answer from Kevin:
"No the switch turns on off the same as the smaller size"
NOGA Magnetic Holder Bed - Model: DG0039
Another answer to the same question from Selecio:
"All the same".
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Here's another email response I got about the "Noga 0039" with 283 pounds of holding force at "Amazon":
The question was: Does the switch require more force with increased holding force?
Answer from Kevin:
"No the switch turns on off the same as the smaller size"
NOGA Magnetic Holder Bed - Model: DG0039
Another answer to the same question from Selecio:
"All the same".
That is a photo of a magnetic base dial indicator holder...we had about 30 of those.
For their size and holding power, those are very hard to turn on/off. But, you are right that you could add a lever as long as you wanted and more more distance with less effort.
The magnetic chucks I spoke of earlier, already have about a 12" long handle which could be made longer. Even a small magnetic chuck would have many, many times the holding power of the device you posted a photo of above.
Bill
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@Pirate88179,
Here's a picture of a "Magnet Chuck". What's the purpose of the "Allen Wrench" pictured along side it? It says "On" right above it. You're right, it appears many times stronger then the "Magnetic Base". Two of these Chucks should work the same way joined at the Allen Wrench, but deliver thousands of pounds in pull force to the "Rocker Arm" attracting plates.
The one on the bottom has a larger throw handle:
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Below is a "Radial Electro-Powered Permanent Magnet Chuck" and it's motor controller.
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Two of these "Radial Electro-Powered Permanent Magnet Chucks" could power a "Rocker arm" reciprocation pump with two steel holding plates. Chances are this set-up is already overunity with the thousands of pounds of holding force for the tiny amount of switching power. The bottom part comes complete off the shelf. Thanks to "Pirate88179" for this information.
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syncro1,
My computer is having keyboard problems, I wanted to get back quicker then is happening.
I have decided that mechanical methods using an N52 flapper magnetic may
be simpler to design and implement then hydraulic means.
(o) Take an N52 magnet in the "Radio Shack" form factor but magnetized it across it's second
longest side. Now mount it on a shaft positioned 2/3 the way on its smallest area face drilled through to
the other. This is a flapper magnet.
(o) Now remove the knobs and mount one-to-one gearing on the input shafts. Turn the
gears to right and the right unit's face turns on(n/s), turn the gears to the left and the left
(n/s) unit's face turns on, mount the above flapper magnet such that the flapper will follow the left
right face action.
(o) Now do gearing reduction such the D-input D-output require the same actuation distance. It may take multiple
shaft reductions to get them the same. Hopefully the output side still retains the greatest torque afterwards.
(o) Link (3) units together in a loop with linkages then stand back.
This should be calculation verifiable when torques (in in-lbs) are given in the specs.
Hydraulics are nice for accumulators, but you want to get rid of Rober Val (scale like, parallel) force linkages.
..S..MarkSCoffman
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Gearing does not amplify energy, it wastes it as heat due to friction. That would simply add another loss to the system.
Bill
Remember that OU is obtained through *impedance matching* just like electrical circuits and impedance matching occurs
when the impedance of the source equals the impedance of the receiver. In a mechanical sense the distance moved in phase space being
equal is what we are looking for here, gear friction is small but unavoidable. torque after gearing is unchangeable in the device. If
Dinput <> Doutput then the problems are going to be obvious. If you've ever experience a mechanical fuel pump in a car being *poked
to death* by it's actuator rod you know what I'm talking about. The fuel pump is not using energy efficiently in that case.
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@Pirate88179,
Here's a picture of a "Magnet Chuck". What's the purpose of the "Allen Wrench" pictured along side it? It says "On" right above it. You're right, it appears many times stronger then the "Magnetic Base". Two of these Chucks should work the same way joined at the Allen Wrench, but deliver thousands of pounds in pull force to the "Rocker Arm" attracting plates.
The one on the bottom has a larger throw handle:
That Allen wrench serves the same purpose as the handle on the chuck in the bottom photo. It mechanically moves the permanent mag array so the flux lines either line up, or they do not line up.
Don't get excited about the electro chucks. We switched to them later on as they work forever and do not have to be rebuilt as there is no way for coolant to enter as there is no seal to fail around the handle because there is no handle. These are just electromagnets instead of permanent mags and you need to supply a lot of power to them. They come with their own (at least they did years ago) huge supply box which is placed near the machine. Ours ran on 220/3 phase and had a very high amp draw although I forget what it was...60 amps or higher maybe. There are no moving parts inside unlike the others we have been showing photos of. The only draw back I ever saw was during a power failure, the grinders would shut down (but do not stop right away) and the electromag released the plates, and your parts, and holding plates, were destroyed. The permanent mags still held. Rare occurrence but it does happen. We lost $20,000 worth of parts this way during a single power outage. Luckily, no one was hurt from the flying parts and holding plates.
The longer handle is supplied on that model because of the effort it takes to switch on/off. As I said, a longer lever would reduce this adding distance to the movement or maybe there are other ways of rotating that shaft inside the chuck. But, you are right that there is a crap load of holding power to play with, so, maybe something can be done.
Bill
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That Allen wrench serves the same purpose as the handle on the chuck in the bottom photo. It mechanically moves the permanent mag array so the flux lines either line up, or they do not line up.
Don't get excited about the electro chucks. We switched to them later on as they work forever and do not have to be rebuilt as there is no way for coolant to enter as there is no seal to fail around the handle because there is no handle. These are just electromagnets instead of permanent mags and you need to supply a lot of power to them. They come with their own (at least they did years ago) huge supply box which is placed near the machine. Ours ran on 220/3 phase and had a very high amp draw although I forget what it was...60 amps or higher maybe. There are no moving parts inside unlike the others we have been showing photos of. The only draw back I ever saw was during a power failure, the grinders would shut down (but do not stop right away) and the electromag released the plates, and your parts, and holding plates, were destroyed. The permanent mags still held. Rare occurrence but it does happen. We lost $20,000 worth of parts this way during a single power outage. Luckily, no one was hurt from the flying parts and holding plates.
The longer handle is supplied on that model because of the effort it takes to switch on/off. As I said, a longer lever would reduce this adding distance to the movement or maybe there are other ways of rotating that shaft inside the chuck. But, you are right that there is a crap load of holding power to play with, so, maybe something can be done.
Bill
@Pirate88179,
This variety is manufactured also along with the Electro-Magnet type:
"Electro Permanent Magnetic (EPM) Chucks operate on momentary electrical power pulse for 3-4 seconds to Switch ON & the chuck remains ON till it is again given reverse electric pulse to switch OFF. Hence there is no chance of any accidents due to power failure".
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syncro1,
My computer is having keyboard problems, I wanted to get back quicker then is happening.
I have decided that mechanical methods using an N52 flapper magnetic may
be simpler to design and implement then hydraulic means.
(o) Take an N52 magnet in the "Radio Shack" form factor but magnetized it across it's second
longest side. Now mount it on a shaft positioned 2/3 the way on its smallest area face drilled through to
the other. This is a flapper magnet.
(o) Now remove the knobs and mount one-to-one gearing on the input shafts. Turn the
gears to right and the right unit's face turns on(n/s), turn the gears to the left and the left
(n/s) unit's face turns on, mount the above flapper magnet such that the flapper will follow the left
right face action.
(o) Now do gearing reduction such the D-input D-output require the same actuation distance. It may take multiple
shaft reductions to get them the same. Hopefully the output side still retains the greatest torque afterwards.
(o) Link (3) units together in a loop with linkages then stand back.
This should be calculation verifiable when torques (in in-lbs) are given in the specs.
Hydraulics are nice for accumulators, but you want to get rid of Rober Val (scale like, parallel) force linkages.
..S..MarkSCoffman
@MarkSCoffman,
I think your ideas are ingenious. I'm having a problem envisioning this one though. Can you upload a schematic? Do you think the "Magnet Flipper" would adapt to the (EPM) or, "Electro-Permanent Magnet Chuck"? This highly engineered advancement is much better then scarfing a solenoid to a pair of switch handles. There's a strong likelihood the switch force in the (EPM) chuck is independent of the holding force like in the "Noga" Magnet Base.
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@Pirate88179,
This variety is manufactured also along with the Electro-Magnet type:
"Electro Permanent Magnetic (EPM) Chucks operate on momentary electrical power pulse for 3-4 seconds to Switch ON & the chuck remains ON till it is again given reverse electric pulse to switch OFF. Hence there is no chance of any accidents due to power failure".
Ah, that is different from what used to be. Ah...progress. So, they simply replaced the manual handle with a motor that moves the permanent mags into and out of position. If they sealed it up correctly this would be a good improvement.
Sorry I missed that in your post.
Bill
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Ah, that is different from what used to be. Ah...progress. So, they simply replaced the manual handle with a motor that moves the permanent mags into and out of position. If they sealed it up correctly this would be a good improvement.
Sorry I missed that in your post.
Bill
@Pirate88179,
I wouldn't even know about it if you hadn't brought it up to begin with, so everyone owes you the debt of gratitude. Thanks again from me personally because the (EPM) chuck accelerates and strengthens the project by a "Quantum Leap".
I came up with a few more ideas. One; Involves a simple bladder or thin piston filled with a small amount of hydraulic fluid between the magnet chuck and the clamping plate Two; Involves a layer of Piezoelectric chips. Three; Involves sandwiching either of those two layers between two magnet chucks for twice the pressure.
The non-proportional relationship between the switch force and the holding strength that was confirmed by a "Noga" engineer and three other independent Amazon "Magnet Base" sellers may carry over to the (EPM) Chuck. I'll have to do more research to confirm that, but I believe it's reasonable to assume they act the same way. Anyone can see the "Free Energy Potential" here taken to the extreme.
Thousands of pounds of compression force would squirt a few ounces of hydraulic fluid into the Stratosphere through a small aperture. The surge could spin a "Pelton Wheel" like crazy for the three or fours seconds. Two Reciprocating "Magnet Chucks" could supply a constant surge. Plus mscoffman sounds like he's envisioned a new unique concept for garnishing output as well.
Two (EPM) chucks with one plate in between and two bladders on either side would draw fluid in one side and squirt it out the other with a constant velocity of thousands of pounds of pressure, at 3 or 4 second intervals, enough hydraulic pressure to tear the skin right off your hand.
A two way hydraulic cylinder, joined to a Scottish Yoke to impart rotary motion, along with a sump, could power a railroad locomotive with just the few watts of switch power from this kind of magnet chuck hydraulic pump. It would go slow but pull a train of box cars.
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The two "Electro-Permanent Magnet Chucks" would need a set of springs on each side, to reposition the central steel magnetizer plate to the middle for the reciprocal attraction event. The bladder can only fill to the center and can't attach to the "Magnetizer Plate" and over fill to the other side, or the springs couldn't return the plate to the center from the excess fluid pressure. The bladder can't attach to the "Magnetizer Plate", and can only fill to the farthest expansion of the springs. The springs would draw the hydraulic fluid from the sump into the bladders.
Placing the springs inside the bladders and running guide pins through the "Magnetizer Plate" would probably work best.
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Check out this "Double Magnet" (EPM) Chuck:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LItQdWzI2Og
This twin combination results in four compression areas operated by one controller command. The Job clamps to the magnets and the magnets simultaneously clamp to the dimple base plate. These kind of "Double Magnet" (EPM) chucks can be ganged up in series to operate not just two, but any number, off a single controller command! "Magnets can be Daisy Chain connected so that only one cable needs to be connected to the controller and the magnets are connected amongst themselves". The second magnet is simply connected to the first in the video, and only the first is connected to the controller. This "Double Magnet" (EPM) Chuck yields the same non-proportional switch power to holding force as the "Magnet Base". This kind of switchable magnet may well be many thousands of times overunity; If only the holding force can be converted to hydraulic pressure or piezoelectric potential! This particular product holds more promise then anything I've seen so far.
Think about it! Suppose we can multiply the holding force of these "Double (EPM) Chucks" by a limitless amount with a fixed amount switch power! There has to be a free lunch to benefit from somewhere in that non-proportion, right?
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Extending two dimple plates over the "Double (EPM)" edges and widening the areas would allow space for huge "Piezoelectric Bricks", one on each side. Tungsten Carbide can be cold molded from powder and shaped into large cubes, or purchased in pre-manufactured shapes. These kinds of cubes would generate power both on the compression and release cycle. This would be a solid state power plant that could scale up to any COP depending on the number of "Piezo Chucks" in the "Daisy Chain". This is my finished design.
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Extending two dimple plates over the "Double (EPM)" edges and widening the areas would allow space for huge "Piezoelectric Bricks", one on each side. Tungsten Carbide can be cold molded from powder and shaped into large cubes, or purchased in pre-manufactured shapes. These kinds of cubes would generate power both on the compression and release cycle. This would be a solid state power plant that could scale up to any COP depending on the number of "Piezo Chucks" in the "Daisy Chain". This is my finished design.
Now you are talking. I thought about this years ago when I discovered, quite painfully, that large pizos release energy when heated, and then also release the same energy when cooled. Same with compression I believe. You could compress the living Sh*t out of some large pizo blocks between two
6" x 18" chucks! Compress/release...on/off...etc.
This still may not be feasible as I would have thought it would have been done long ago...however...maybe no one thought of it? Of all of the things I have seen here on this site, this seems to be the most original and, I can not supply a reason that it can't work, other than someone should have tried this already. Maybe they did...maybe not. I also like the hydraulics idea. There would be a tremendous amount of compression between 2 of these devices. The movement would be very fast as well.
Really good thinking guys.
Bill
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I remember playing with one of these magnetic welding clamps at a welding shop and I thought there was a lot of force required to turn it on and off. That would have to be measured to check for excess work. Then releasing something gains you nothing. Its the attraction where the work done counts and the problem with that is the further you are
away the weaker the force. That feature of magnets puts the potentential work done
on the low side.
But this was my first sight of a truely valid way to turn a magnets force on and off - actually diverting it so it seems it was turned on and off.
If you have one of these then get some measurements and then we'll know if its OU.
I'd really like to see it.
Norman
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Here is a very, very crude drawing of what the inside of one of those chucks looks like.
I hate trying to draw using my cheap mouse!
The handle simply moves the entire unit inside toward that empty space (Using a cam/dog attached to the handle shaft) and lines
up the magnets in the base with the steel strips on the top plate. Magnet is now on.
Cranking the handle in the other direction, of course, moves the unit inside so the magnets line up with the brass strips and...no
magnetic attraction any more.
The more I think about this, the more I remember the forces needed to slide that assembly inside, even on a new chuck. (An older chuck gets much harder)
That handle on the 6" x 18" chuck is about 12" long so, I think it took about 35-40 foot pounds to move it. We had several women machinists and, they always had to get one of the guys to move that handle for them as they could not do it.
Bill
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG-01vY36W0
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG-01vY36W0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cG-01vY36W0)
Spirit:
Excellent find! Now everyone can see how these are made and can forget my very poor drawing. I actually have owned about 6 of those smaller Suburban Tool chucks. Several of them were set up as a sine bar, for grinding angles.
35 pounds of holding power/sq. inch. so, an 8X18" chuck would have 5,040 pounds of holding power! (I knew it was a lot!) Our 12x36" chuck would have had 15,120 pounds of holding power!!!!
So now I see that, yes, it is very hard to turn these off/on but, with that many pounds of holding power, surely something could be mechanically or hydraulically worked out and you should have a lot left over to spare.
Spirit, thank you for finding this and posting it.
Bill
PS I see they are now using stainless steel instead of brass for the dead zones for the flux. Probably to save money.
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Hi Syncro,
I finally got around to making some measurements.
(promised in the other thread - An Ingenious Way to Turn Neodymium Permanent Magnets On and Off - Magswitch. . .)
I had a welding project going on and didn't want to disassemble the earth clamp.
Details.
Magswitch 300 amp ground clamp part no WG300MS
I used a spring balance to find the force (torque) required to open/close the magnet.
Max required (towards the end of the closing stroke)
5.4 lbs at 1.75 inc dia.
So about 0.4 lb ft.
Same for both Open/Close. (except that the max on open is near the beginning of the stroke)
Next, I mounted the MagSwich in my drill press.
This was so I could carefully position it near the workpiece using the vernier action of the (expensive) drill press.
1st, using a 1.04 lb wrench lying flat and unsecured on the drill press table,
the magswitch in the on position, needed to get to 0.23 inches before the wrench was lifted into contact.
2nd, using a 48 lb tractor (mild steel) tractor weight lying flat and unsecured on the drill press table,
the magswitch in the on position, needed to get to 0.05 inches before the weight was lifted into contact.
Are there any other tests you would like ?
Thanks
Pete
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Hi Syncro,
I finally got around to making some measurements.
(promised in the other thread - An Ingenious Way to Turn Neodymium Permanent Magnets On and Off - Magswitch. . .)
I had a welding project going on and didn't want to disassemble the earth clamp.
Details.
Magswitch 300 amp ground clamp part no WG300MS
I used a spring balance to find the force (torque) required to open/close the magnet.
Max required (towards the end of the closing stroke)
5.4 lbs at 1.75 inc dia.
So about 0.4 lb ft.
Same for both Open/Close. (except that the max on open is near the beginning of the stroke)
Next, I mounted the MagSwich in my drill press.
This was so I could carefully position it near the workpiece using the vernier action of the (expensive) drill press.
1st, using a 1.04 lb wrench lying flat and unsecured on the drill press table,
the magswitch in the on position, needed to get to 0.23 inches before the wrench was lifted into contact.
2nd, using a 48 lb tractor (mild steel) tractor weight lying flat and unsecured on the drill press table,
the magswitch in the on position, needed to get to 0.05 inches before the weight was lifted into contact.
Are there any other tests you would like ?
Thanks
Pete
@PIH123,
Thanks for running the test!
I found this video of the "Magnet Switch" you tested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8cKscZ-eM8
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There is no such thing as 'switchable magnets'
Magnetism is a property of space, it is space itself that is magnetised.
That is why we are able to communicate with rosetta at millions of miles away.
What you see around a magnet it is an effect brought out by space itself, it is because the magnetic field lines as you call them can more easily pass through the magnet then they can pass through air and that is why you observe a concentrated area around and in these magnets, if you were to remove space itself you would be left with a non magnetic lump of metal.
So if you would use the term 'switchable space' then that would be a better fit.
The weird part is that the evidence is available you can create magnetic fields in empty space by using high voltage, and if you use for example graphite as your output terminals, there isn't even metal around yet still the magnetic field, or better said, polarized space, pops up revealing all these magnetic effects, and then there are the copper coils, not magnetic by itself but once powered up again, these magnetic effects show up, this is evidence that these effects are a property of space itself, and it is staring you in your face, but still most people believe this magnetic field somehow orginates from the magnet while it has got nothing to do it is more like a lenz concentrating light.
You would not believe me if i said the light comes from the lenz that is concentrating it, because your eyes are able to detect the source of the light.
With magnetism this is not so, and because of that most people are stuck in the continous error believe the field comes from the magnet.
It is a result of not seeing the light or the source of the field, air is to a magnetic field what a resistor is to current, a currant needs to flow, where a magnetic field needs to move to work with, the evidence is all around you, you are wasting your time trying to get light out of a lenz that sit's in darkness, so what can you do? the answer is clear, it is movement of space itself, which has a direct proportion to the light intensity falling on the lenz, example.
The faster you make space move, the more magnetic effects you witness, there are thresholds that need to be reached, like you see in the speed of sound barrier, the speed of light, so has the magnetic field specific limits where things change, and might i say, other things, things not readily understood yet start to show up, so you either try to get your magnet to move at the speed of light,good luck with that, or you find a way to speed up the field or space itself.
There can be no current flow since this limits or acts like a brake and so that means it needs to have a static character, which is all good since volatage is cheap right, and it can be used for a long time, without current flow.
The question then becomes , how do you switch a static charge ?
There is more to it but that would be a good start and a relay can do it, but not fast enough, what else?
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@PIH123,
Thanks for running the test!
I found this video of the "Magnet Switch" you tested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8cKscZ-eM8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8cKscZ-eM8)
Wow. That is a really small one. I have never seen one like this.
Bill
PS https://mag-tools.com/magswitch-600-amp-switchable-magnetic-ground-clamp.html (https://mag-tools.com/magswitch-600-amp-switchable-magnetic-ground-clamp.html)
This small one has a 200 pound breakaway. For its size, that is pretty good but, is is over $100 US.
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Pete thanks for the tests but you need to convert that into ft/lbs and compare
the force to turn it on to the work done ft/lbs then you know if its over unity.
The wrench would have been about 1/4 ft/lbs of work done but not sure what the
work required to turn the magnet on was. Can you supply that?
thanks,
You need to get work in vs work out.
This has been around for awhile so I can't imagine it has been overlooked.
Norman
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John Bedini showed how to easily grow large "Rochelle Salt" crystals for practically nothing. I was surprised to learn they generate the most Piezoelectricity. They grow like "RockCandy".
Piezoelectricity is the ability of certain materials to produce a voltage when subjected to mechanical stress. Piezoelectric materials also show the opposite effect, called converse piezoelectricity, where application of an electrical field creates mechanical stress (size modification) in the crystal.
piezoelectric 01
Figure 1 Piezoelectric effect
The effect known as piezoelectricity was discovered by brothers Pierre and Jacques Curie; they showed that crystals of tourmaline, quartz, topaz, cane sugar, and Rochelle salt (sodium potassium tartrate tetra hydrate) generate electric charge from mechanical stress. Quartz and Rochelle salt exhibited the most piezoelectricity.
The relationship between force and electricity is converse; The material compresses when electrified, and generates electricity when pressured.
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Here's a good video on growing the Crystals from "Cream of Tarter" and "Baking Soda":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Ct3VUWvhQ
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John Bedini showed how to easily grow large "Rochelle Salt" crystals for practically nothing. I was surprised to learn they generate the most Piezoelectricity. They grow like "RockCandy".
Piezoelectricity is the ability of certain materials to produce a voltage when subjected to mechanical stress. Piezoelectric materials also show the opposite effect, called converse piezoelectricity, where application of an electrical field creates mechanical stress (size modification) in the crystal.
piezoelectric 01
Figure 1 Piezoelectric effect
The effect known as piezoelectricity was discovered by brothers Pierre and Jacques Curie; they showed that crystals of tourmaline, quartz, topaz, cane sugar, and Rochelle salt (sodium potassium tartrate tetra hydrate) generate electric charge from mechanical stress. Quartz and Rochelle salt exhibited the most piezoelectricity.
The relationship between force and electricity is converse; The material compresses when electrified, and generates electricity when pressured.
Also, as I can speak from experience here, if you heat a piezo material, and discharge it while it is heated, it builds up a like charge when it cools and can be discharged again.
We had a job machining some piezo disks about the size of a hockey puck. Like a lot of our ceramic machining, what we would do is to wax the pucks down to precision ground steel plates, (which held fast to the magnetic chucks on the grinders) surface grind the first side and then, demount them, clean them, and use a vacuum chuck to hold them to do the second side and take them to final thickness.
Well, we heated them up in order to wax them to our steel plates. I accidentally got my finger near one of the pucks and a huge spark jumped out and bit my finger from about 1/4" away! It really hurt! So, I figured we needed to be careful with this material from now on when heating it up. Once cooled, I went to mount the plates onto the surface grinder, and ZAP! I got hit again. I called the engineer that we were doing this job for and he explained that if heated, it builds up a huge charge of thousand of volts. (no kidding) Then, if discharged when hot, it cools and builds up a similar charge again. I think the material might have been barium titanate but I can't really remember now.
Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium_titanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium_titanate)
Anyway, I just wanted to show that besides mechanical compression/decompression, piezos can also build charge in the way described above.
Bill
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Also, as I can speak from experience here, if you heat a piezo material, and discharge it while it is heated, it builds up a like charge when it cools and can be discharged again.
We had a job machining some piezo disks about the size of a hockey puck. Like a lot of our ceramic machining, what we would do is to wax the pucks down to precision ground steel plates, (which held fast to the magnetic chucks on the grinders) surface grind the first side and then, demount them, clean them, and use a vacuum chuck to hold them to do the second side and take them to final thickness.
Well, we heated them up in order to wax them to our steel plates. I accidentally got my finger near one of the pucks and a huge spark jumped out and bit my finger from about 1/4" away! It really hurt! So, I figured we needed to be careful with this material from now on when heating it up. Once cooled, I went to mount the plates onto the surface grinder, and ZAP! I got hit again. I called the engineer that we were doing this job for and he explained that if heated, it builds up a huge charge of thousand of volts. (no kidding) Then, if discharged when hot, it cools and builds up a similar charge again. I think the material might have been barium titanate but I can't really remember now.
Here is a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium_titanate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barium_titanate)
Anyway, I just wanted to show that besides mechanical compression/decompression, piezos can also build charge in the way described above.
Bill
@Pirate88179,
It's possible to mold the "Rochelle Salt Crystal"; Look at the behemoth below: Molding "Barium Titanate Powder" into large ceramic blocks would work even bettor but cost a lot more. I bet this huge Crystal would light some bulbs vised by a "Magnet Chuck".
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This $300.00 "Dog House Climate Control System" and a sealed box would supply the strict uniform cooling temperature necessary to grow a super sized "Rochelle Salt Crystal" like the one pictured above. A high heat ceramic kiln would be be needed to forge a "Barium Titanate" block from powder. A sufficient number of these large "Piezoelectric Crystals" coupled with the stable switch cost of multiple "Daisy Chained" Magnet Chucks should hit "Pay dirt" at some point.
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This is pure "Potassium bitartrate". 20 pounds would cost $172.00 including shipping.
Cream Of Tartar, 10 Lb Bag
from Angelina's Gourmet
Price: $75.25 ($75.25 / bag) + $10.75 shipping
A large Spaghetti pot, and a rectangular "mold form" positioned in the "Dog House" cooling box would crystallize a pure "Potassium bitartrate" slurry into a 20 pound Piezoelectric brick overnight for $172.00! Power 24/7 rain or shine!
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Moore
"At the same time Nicolson was producing composite crystals, Roy W. Moore at General Electric’s Research Laboratory in Schenectady, NY, was working on a method to produce large perfect crystals. Nicholson’s pots look pretty unsophisticated compared to Moore’s apparatus shown in Figure 017. (below) His crystals were grown within an electrically heated temperature controlled crock. In fact, the temperature was accurately controlled to within 0.1C by way of a modified mercury thermometer thermostat. His patent for the process (#1,347,350) was filed February 26, 1918 which was actually a few months earlier than Nicholson".
The large perfect "Rochelle Salt Crystal" at the bottom weighed 2 kilograms. One that size would cost $43.00 in "Potassium bitartrate" including shipping.
"Rochelle salt can be grown into large crystals and is a favorable material for scientific study. In 1824 Sir David Brewster noticed that the crystal produced electricity when heated or what is called pyroelectricity. Brothers Pierre and Paul Jacques Curie were the first to identify that Rochelle salt was also piezoelectric in 1880. In other words, it generated electricity in response to being mechanically distorted. You can imagine that heating something probably also causes it to physically distort all by itself.
In fact, Rochelle salt is orders of magnitude more piezoelectric than just about any other substance. It remains to this day one of the most piezoelectric substances ever found. Perhaps not surprisingly, the process works in reverse where applying electricity to the crystal causes it to physically distort".
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Taking a hint from Roy W. Moore's patent; A "Tropical Fish Aquarium Water Heater" in a double tank would keep the temperature regulated to close to within 0.1 degree centigrade for a lot less then the "Dog House Climate Controller".
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"Ebo Jager has the best reputation for aquarium heaters. They use thicker glass, which reduces breakage. Their heaters have a precision of half a degree Fahrenheit and are adjustable from 64 - 94 degrees".
0.1 Centigrade is 0.18 Fahrenheit. The Ebo Jager comes pretty close to that at .50 degrees Fahrenheit.
This very powerful 300 Watt Jager costs ten times less then the "Dog House Climate Control" unit. This tidy highly efficient economical little unit does practically everything Roy W. Moore's exotic patent of 1918 did for growing perfect "Rochelle Salt Crystals".
EHEIM Jager Aquarium Thermostat Heater 300W
by Eheim
$30.10
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This product is pure with no additives from Amazon. We have to start here to grow a perfect Crystal.
Potassium Sodium Tartrate "Rochelle Salt" / 4 Ounces / 99.9% Pure / USP Food Grade / SHIPS FAST FROM USA
by Loudwolf:
Price: $7.99 + $4.68 shipping
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The problem with regular aquarium heater is that that the "Rochelle Salt Solution" has to start cooling at 106º Fahrenheit, too high a temperature for the Jaeger. The "Mini Temperature Controller" is a much better solution pictured in the next post with a 0.1º sensitivity and a range from the freezing tooling of water. It's only about $20.00, all it needs is the heating element.
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Here's a much bettor one. This device is also suitable for Laboratories use and other temperature-controlled systems:
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Syncro:
Why not just purchase some Barium Titanate? Surely this is available commercially cheaper than we could make it in our home labs.
Same thing with the Rochelle Salt crystals? Isn't there some manufacturer that has a big facility that makes this stuff all day long cheaper, and better maybe, than we could at home?
I am just asking as I have not researched this at all. Possibly, you have done so and, if this is the case, just ignore my post.
Bill
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I like the enthusiasm, but for me an hour of research turned up nothing that talked about being able to achieve a power density for Rochelle Salt Crystals or PZT that would make this worth doing. Have I missed a page or can someone point to a source/research that shows that this is worth anything? Some real numbers of volts/amps/watts/frequency/pressure/etc Thanks!
tak
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I like the enthusiasm, but for me an hour of research turned up nothing that talked about being able to achieve a power density for Rochelle Salt Crystals or PZT that would make this worth doing. Have I missed a page or can someone point to a source/research that shows that this is worth anything? Some real numbers of volts/amps/watts/frequency/pressure/etc Thanks!
tak
@Tak22,
Small ones light barbecue fires, what kind of spark would a two kilo brick generate? A mass-pressure to output in watts formula might allow an extrapolation. I'm envisioning two kilo crystals and thousands of pounds of pressure! The "Pyroelectric" effect may be even greater. Imagine a cluster of crystals in a chamber wrapped around an exhaust pipe through which the exhaust gasses are periodically channeled, followed by cooling air. The output might help power a hybrid.
@Pirate88179,
The manufacturing of the "Rochelle Salt Crystals" was a big industry right up untill shortly after WW 2. It disappeared along with the "Stanley Steamer" probably after the same kind of suppressionist acquisition by John D. Rockefeller. I found 3000 bars of Barium Titanate ceramic that sold at online auction for $2,000,000., but next after that is a disc the size of a "Tea Saucer".
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"To fully appreciate what Moore was up to, you need to understand the Rochelle salt saturation curve in Figure 18. This plot shows the amount of salt that can be dissolved in 100ml of water verses temperature. For example, with 22C as a room temperature, 100g of Rochelle salt will dissolve in 100ml or water. That is how I knew that Nicolson’s recipe called for 50g more salt than it could hold.
That is not to say that you can’t temporarily get more salt into solution than the saturation amount. If the liquid was at 33C then 150g would completely dissolve in 100ml of water. Cooled slowly, the higher amount of salt could remain in the solution and it would become supersaturated. Eventually an impurity of some kind would trigger a spontaneous crystallization and the solution would become simply saturated over time.
The seed crystal also serves as a place where the extra salt can go to get out of solution. That is how Nicolson’s method worked, but the process can go too quickly for the molecules of salt to precisely buildup on the crystal surface. Starting with a less supersaturated solution slows the process down and that is why Holden and Morrison only call for 9g of extra Rochelle salt.
Another way to slow the process down is to slow the rate of cooling. When things naturally cool, the rate of temperature change is greatest in the beginning. Unfortunately that is exactly when you don’t have crystal surface to accumulate the salt. Cooling just 1C from 33C to 32C causes about 10g of salt to leave the mother liquor which is actually a decent sized crystal. Ideally the temperature should drop very slowly at first and then get faster as the crystal builds.
By accurately controlling the temperature, Moore was able to pace the amount of salt coming out of solution to the growth rate of the crystal. Starting at 40C, he would only let the temperature drop 0.1C in the first day and then increase the drop slowly every day. He produced crystals about the same size as Nicolson, but it took a month not hours".
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The digital display of the "Mini Temperature Controller" pictured above is measured in tenths of a degree centigrade.
•Resolution: 0.1 °C (-40 ~ 99.9 °C), 1 °C (100 ~ 120 °C)
Moore lowered the temperature of the bath by exactly the same increments starting at 40º Centigrade. One tenth of a degree the first day and so on until a perfect crystal formed. The low cost "Mini Temperature Controller" does everything Moore's patented apparatus did nearly a hundred years ago. Coupled with pure "Rochelle Salts", it should be possible to grow perfect crystals this way. This process takes a period of months. Every time the temperature is lowered, the solubility increases and the left out material solidifies. The temperature drop can speed up as the crystal builds.
The graph above shows that 100ml of water holds 200 grams of "Rochelle Salt" at 40º centigrade. At 33º centigrade it only holds 150 grams. So that means a 50 gram crystal has formed during the 7º drop in temperature. There's really nothing to it!
The important thing to understand is that this process results in one solid crystal, not a pile of shards.
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Small ones light barbecue fires, what kind of spark would a two kilo brick generate? A mass-pressure to output in watts formula might allow an extrapolation. I'm envisioning two kilo crystals and thousands of pounds of pressure!
That's what I'm asking, what data are you relying on for the extrapolation? A small one doesn't light a barbecue, the spark ignites the gas, same as a flint. I think you need to find something somewhere that shows what amount of power "two kilo crystals and thousands of pounds of pressure" could produce.
Still like the enthusiasm, just not seeing what it's based on.
tak
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That's what I'm asking, what data are you relying on for the extrapolation? A small one doesn't light a barbecue, the spark ignites the gas, same as a flint. I think you need to find something somewhere that shows what amount of power "two kilo crystals and thousands of pounds of pressure" could produce.
Still like the enthusiasm, just not seeing what it's based on.
tak
@Tak22,
I can't answer your question at this time. I wonder about it just like you. However, I believe that it's possible to generate sufficient power with enough large crystals to throw the switch on a set of EPM Chucks, thereby achieving "Perpetual Motion".
2 Kg of pure "Rochelle Salt" added to 2 liters of distilled water would grow a perfect crystal as large as the one those two guys are holding in the picture below, with the help of a $15.99 "Temperature Controller" like the "Inkbird" pictured on top below. (.1 C scale too.)
Another important point; The water volume of the "Mother Liquor" needs to be maintained at the same level so only the heat reduction is controlling the increase in solubility. Allowing the water level to drop even a little would cause the crystal to grow too fast and crack. A "Toilet style" float valve replenishment system to maintain the "Mother Liquor" level would help as a finishing touch.
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The float is out. It would accumulate crystal deposits. Below is a water level "Laser Sensor" suspended above and outside the tank:
The replenishment reservoir would need to be gravity fed distilled water like the start up batch. You could probably do it by hand, but one missed day would result in a crack. Moore has the "Mother Liquor Crock" tightly sealed. The sealed Crock more than likely leaked anyway, that's probably why Moore's crystals cracked before they got any larger then Nicholson's, who used the evaporation process. Maybe a combination of seal and replenishment would work best.
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Here are three inexpensive items to complement the "Temperature Controller": One; A 1.5 quart Pyrex double boiler. Around $18.00 from eBay. Two; A 12 volt ceramic heating element and, Three; A 12 volt CPU cooler and pump. We have to seal the lid on the Pyrex Crock with silicon, and include a 120 to 12 volt wall transfomer. We can grow a large perfect crystal with these components for under $100.00. This is enough to lower the "Rochelle Salt" solubility down to 50 grams per 100 milliliters. This Pyrex Crock could grow a perfect 400 gram crystal. A crystal this size should be large enough to clamp between the jaws of a "Magnet chuck".
We could focus a Laser at the "Mother Liquor" level and try and drip distilled water into the Crock with an eyedropper, through a pre-positioned pipette, to insure a constant volume over the months required to grow the perfect crystal to full size.
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Here's a video on drilling holes in "Pyrex" with the Porsadrill diamond bit system. A "T" coupling can be added to a cooler recycling tube to replenish water to the outermost boiler. This setup can be turned into a fine piece of laboratory equipment with a few simple modifications. Naturally a thermostat needs to be positioned inside the boiler away from the heating element and cooling inlet and connected to the temperature controller. (See below):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPY7k9dkI8g
Below: Amazon.
Product Details
2pc DIAMOND HOLE SAW - CORE DRILL - Set - 1/2" + 1"
by Unknown
$5.01
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PT100 type Thermocouple Sensor for Temperature Controller. This is a 2m (6.6ft) water resistant (submersible) RTD PT-100 type thermocouple. It provides "0.1 degree" resolution and works well with most digital temperature control units. $16.00!
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Take a look at this design for a magnet switch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kWy5yCOGs
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Take a look at this design for a magnet switch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kWy5yCOGs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6kWy5yCOGs)
Thanks, that is very nice but probably would not have net usable work out
over the input work to twist the setup....
But it could trigger something further..
Norman
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Thanks, that is very nice but probably would not have net usable work out
over the input work to twist the setup....
But it could trigger something further..
Norman
@Norman,
Check this graph out: The Shear to Push Pull Force is 1 to 3.33: