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Author Topic: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy  (Read 28761 times)

Offline Zetetic

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2015, 10:40:16 PM »


ayeaye,


I know you’re eager to get to the curved aspect of your design.  But, first, I need to understand the basics of your idea.

When you have a row of magnets attractively lined up pole to pole, then the lines of flux both go from one pole on one magnet to the opposite pole on the next magnet, and also they loop around to their own opposite pole (see drawing 1 below).

Yes?  No?


And if we draw a line through those field lines (drawing 2) we see that above that line the field lines are “asymmetrical” (drawing 3).

In this part of the field the north to south field lines span across the length of each magnet (3.1) differently (“asymmetrically”) from how the north to south field lines span across the gap between each magnet (3.2).

Yes?  No?


And so if there were another magnet external to this row of magnets (drawing 4), and orientated so that it will be pushed and pulled leftward over the span of each magnet and it will be pushed and pulled rightward over the gap between each set of magnets, then it will not be (this is your contention) pushed and pulled leftward and rightward between these two spans with the same force due to this “asymmetry.”

And so, it will achieve an overall movement in one direction (leftward).  Again, this is your contention.

Yes?  No?



Did I just take two steps back in my understanding of your proposal?  Please let me know!

Take care,

- Zet



(PS:  Your drawings in Reply #74, I believe, have helped me to better understand where you are going with this.  So, thank you for that.  But I’m not ready to comment on that part of your ideas yet.  We need to make sure I understand the basics of your idea first!)



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline ayeaye

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2015, 11:55:43 PM »
Zetetic,

The first two are yes. The third, well, the magnets will get pushed and pulled to the right when over the gap, yes. The assumption is that the speed of the disc enables to go over the gap. The additional energy got by pushing and pulling in the right direction, increases the speed of the disc, and in the opposite direction decreases the speed. But when the speed increases at the side of a magnet more than it decreases at a gap, then the disc gets additional speed, that is additional energy.

This doesn't work without the disc, which has a certain inertia, this enables to gather energy, and go over the gaps.

There are three reasons why there is asymmetry, as i see by now, maybe not all entirely correct. First there is a ferrite, or other magnet material between poles of the magnet, and not between the magnet. This enables a stronger pull between the poles of the magnet. Second, every magnet interacts with the magnet near it, this takes away some field lines, leaving fewer available to go to the stator magnet, when at the gap. Third, because of the curvature of the disc, the nearby magnets are under some angle, taking field lines further away from the stator magnet, at the gaps.


Offline Zetetic

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2015, 12:21:35 AM »


ayeaye,


“This doesn't work without the disc, which has a certain inertia, this enables to gather energy, and go over the gaps.” – Reply #76


Okay ... good ... I’m glad we slowed it down.


Are you saying that there is a difference whether the row of magnets is in a straight line or if they are in a circle?

If we have an infinite row of magnets and they are in motion (they have inertia) are you saying that this (the dynamics of the interacting magnets) will work differently than if we have a circle of magnets and they are in motion (they also have intertia)?


Thank you,

- Zet



Edit/

(PS:  I think you may have modified your Reply #76 while I was responding to it.  I didn't see the last paragraph when I responded to it here.  That changes things.)

/Edit



Offline ayeaye

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2015, 12:44:27 AM »
Zetetic,

> Are you saying that there is a difference whether the row of magnets is in a straight line or if they are in a circle?

> If we have an infinite row of magnets and they are in motion (they have inertia) are you saying that this (the dynamics of the interacting magnets) will work differently than if we have a circle of magnets and they are in motion (they also have intertia)?

Yes i think there is a difference and a circle is somewhat better, but not that there is no asymmetry in a straight line.


Offline Zetetic

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2015, 01:08:53 AM »



ayeaye,


“Yes i think there is a difference and a circle is somewhat better, but not that there is no asymmetry in a straight line.” – Reply # 78


Okay.

So, now based on your last paragraph in Reply # 76 and based on the lines in the drawings in Reply # 73 I can move on and think about what you are claiming (or suggesting) is the dynamic between the magnets (and specifically, the dynamic that leads to OU).

Cool.


- Zet



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2015, 01:08:53 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2015, 03:31:37 AM »
Yes i tried to tell everything i know. Any questions about my experiment, i will answer. Next may be modeling the magnetic fields, but unfortunately i don't know any open source software for this. If someone knows any, please say.

Offline Zetetic

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2015, 06:06:06 AM »


ayeaye,



If I understand you correctly ... and , unfortunately , I cannot draw a picture for this ( ... it is beyond my simple microsoft paint skills , to do so ...) ... you are suggesting that because the field lines that come out of the north end of one of the magnets in the row , and some end up going to the south pole of the next magnet in the row ... while the other’s go up and back over to its own opposite pole ... that the push back (the unwanted ( ... “unwanted” in the sense ( let me define my terms ) of bad for this OU design ; they push back the overall motion and slow it down ... ) push back from the north end of the bar in the row of magnets on the external magnet is a lesser force than the push forward from this same pole once the external magnet is beyond to the other side of its repulsive force ; since the magnetic flux lines here ...

And I think that’s where you lose me.

I’ll have to think about it somemore.

Thx.

- Zet




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2015, 06:06:06 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2015, 09:35:59 AM »
Zetetic,

> push back from the north end of the bar in the row of magnets on the external magnet is a lesser force than the push forward from this same pole once the external magnet is beyond to the other side of its repulsive force ; since the magnetic flux lines here

Yes.

But i didn't quite understand the first part of your question.

As much as i understand, at the center of a pole, there are always the same number of field lines for a particular magnet, and the field lines are always distributed evenly. So it is like as if at the center of a pole there were an entirely symmetric field. But then it depends on where all these field lines go. But this is as much as i understand, there may be something i don't know.

Can you simply draw freehand lines in microsoft paint? One of my first drawings here was done in gimp that way. Not difficult, but then i found that drawing on a paper, and then capturing the image with the web cam, is still simpler.

And, if you ever try it, you may think about using multiple stator magnets. But, multiple stators don't give anything there, or i cannot think about any benefit of them. Why? Because that device is dynamic, not static. It is about adding additional speed, and a single stator does it, the same as multiple stators. The energy is added as an additional speed, it is not static. Just have to say everything.

Offline Zetetic

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2015, 01:15:54 AM »

ayeaye,



Maybe you’re saying something different.  Let me try this tangent, and see if I can get at your idea.



Please see the following drawing.


If a magnet is alone (top part of drawing), then all of the field lines coming out of the one end of the magnet are matched by an equal number of field lines going into the other end of the lone magnet.

However, if you have two magnets side by side , and magnetically aligned (lower part of the drawing) , then some of the field lines will come out of the one end of the magnet and loop back around to the other end of that same magnet , while some of the field lines coming out of that end of the magnet will not loop around but rather go into the opposite pole of the other magnet.

And so , looking at it from this perspective , it might seem as if there are more field lines coming out of one end of a given magnet and less field lines entering the other side of that same magnet.

Is this what you are getting at?

Yes?  No?  Something else?



- Zet




Offline ayeaye

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2015, 04:47:55 AM »
Zetetic,

Your drawing is not entirely correct. When nothing is near a magnet, some field lines also go away from it, both from the south pole and north pole. Otherwise that magnet cannot attract anything from right or left. Magnet attracts only when its field lines cross the object.

There is i think always the same number of field lines at both ends of the magnet. The only difference is how they distribute, how many go to other magnet, and how many just go out. And this, and the direction of the field lines, may provide asymmetry at some place at the pole of the magnet.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2015, 04:47:55 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2015, 12:44:40 PM »
There is i think always the same number of field lines at both ends of the magnet. The only difference is how they distribute,
Why do you think so?
BTW: The number of these lines is commonly called the total Magnetic Flux.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2015, 01:08:59 PM »
Why do you think so?
I don't know, i think this is what field lines are. Field lines don't exist by themselves, they are just vector paths of the curvature of the field. Assuming that the field is evenly distributed at the center of the pole, this is how it should be. Why i think the field is evenly distributed at the center of the pole, simply because the field should be the strongest there, and the least affected by outside forces. So this is more or less how it should be. But i don't say that it's precisely so.

No, magnet tape may not be good for the purpose, as it may not have all one pole at one side. Not sure though, and i don't know where to get a better magnetic rubber. So the other options are the 1 mm neodymium cube magnets, or magnetizing small ferrite cores, the latter may be the best option.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2015, 06:50:08 PM by ayeaye »


Offline ayeaye

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #87 on: May 06, 2015, 01:10:53 PM »
Well, i could repeat the experiment 3/4, with a chain (array) of four rectangular 7 x 7 x 5 mm ceramic magnets, when the stator was quite far, and the forces were not great. The distance between magnets was such that 16 magnets make a full circle, with that distance between magnets.

7 x 7 x 5 mm ceramic magnets are the smallest ceramic magnets one can buy. The original experiment was done with 5 x 5 x 3 mm ceramic magnets, but they don't sell so small ceramic magnets anywhere. The stator magnet used in the original experiment 3/4 was a cylindrical neodymium magnet 15 mm long and 8 mm in diameter. An easy way to fix a stator magnet, is to put two cigarette lighters one on another, and fasten with a mounting tape.

I also didn't find any shifting of poles when 16 such magnets (7 x 7 x 5 mm) made a full circle. With such distance also the forces between magnets were not too great, and it was easy to fasten the magnets with a mounting tape. What i felt with such distance between magnets of that strength, was that the movement didn't feel so smooth and not so good as with a smaller ceramic magnets.

I couldn't get any continuous rotation with a full circle of 16 magnets on the disc though. The rotation was in fact worse than in the experiment 4/4. But continuous rotation was not my aim, the only aim was to show overunity. If one wants to achieve a continuous rotation in that way, then this is a whole separate work, and i have no reasons to say that it can succeed.

One thing about multiple stator magnets that i mentioned, as i said they make no sense generally, like for going over a gap, because the device is dynamic. Yet they may make some sense because in that design everything may matter, the placement of magnets, but also the strength and distance of the stator magnet. So multiple stators may make sense when that enables to use stator magnets of a proper strength. But they also may not be necessary.

So i think i now said everything i could.

Offline Zetetic

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #88 on: May 06, 2015, 10:47:02 PM »



ayeaye,


Please excuse my silence.

I can think through things in incredible detail.  And, so, if you’ve got something with your Fields Lines Motor, I may be the right guy to understand you.

However, I burn out.  I need to take a break from it for a while.  I will come back.  But I need to think about other things for a time.

Here is what I am debating (/thinking about) at the moment:

http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/88857-what-happens-at-a-distance-when-an-electromagnet-is-turned-off/

Please note: I use the word “asymmetrical” in that argument a lot.  And I got that from you!

In this argument (linked to here) I think I have disproved Newton’s Third Law.  (I just stumbled across it.)  And, if I’m right, then I can disprove it in only on short paragraph.

(In the link in the OP of this post I disprove (hopefully) the Law of Conservation of Energy.  And I do this in only two (Word for Window) pages.  To get it into that short of an argument is an accomplishment.  However, to disprove another fundamental “Law of Physics” (Newton’s Third Law) and to do it in only one clear simple short paragraph is an even greater accomplishment.)

So, anyway, I’ll be back (here).

But, right now, I need to think about other things.

(I’m also taking a Coursera course on Soren Kierkegaard.  Professor Jon Stewart is an excellent teacher.  You might not think that Kierkegaard has anything to do with what we are talking about here, but upon a deeper reading of what Professor Stewart is saying and then upon a reflection of our conversation here, there is a lot of relevance!)

So, please excuse my ( ... temporary ... ) silence.  My brain cells need to rebuild.



Thank you for the conversation thus far!  I have enjoyed it!  And, as always, I respect your logic and especially your creativity with that sound logic immensely!



Cheeers!

- Zet




Offline verpies

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Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2015, 08:10:42 AM »
I don't know, I think this is what field lines are. Field lines don't exist by themselves...
Regardless whether these lines are real or imaginary their amount is not constant in a permanent magnet and depends on the reluctance of its external magnetic circuit.  This is evident from the work line of the BH curve.

However, an energized superconducting tube keeps the total flux through the tube constant regardless of the external reluctance and it's flux distribution resembles the distribution of a permanent bar magnet.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A possible violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy
« Reply #89 on: May 11, 2015, 08:10:42 AM »

 

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