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Author Topic: Skycollection's "Pentafilar Pancake" inductively coupled "Overunity Potential".  (Read 105051 times)

Offline MarkE

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Hi Skycollection, an oscilloscope is useful if you want to look at the waveform shapes, but not essential
for what you are doing. It will probably be more useful and simpler for you to place a current meter (ammeter) in one of the
battery wires to measure the DC current coming from your batteries (or from your super capacitors). You can then multiply
the current you measure from the battery times the battery terminal voltage to get a fairly good idea of your input power.
Without making this measurement you just don't know how your circuit is performing at all. This is easy to do and would be a
good start if you are interested in trying to see how you circuit is really performing. Your circuit is working well, but LED lights can be
quite deceiving. The LED lights could be running at half power or less, and the LED lights can still glow quite brightly.
All the best...
In low power circuits, the burden voltage of a DMM's current measuring circuit can be a problem.  Additionally, while high quality meters have low inducatnce current sense resistors, that is not universally true.  The result is that for spikey signals, you can get inaccurate averages.  The burden voltage is specified for most meters. 

The preferred way to measure current is using a current shunt that is in the circuit and that has a sufficiently low inductance that it will not cause serious measurement distortion.  For that, a low inductance resistor, preferably a four wire Kelvin resistor is the way to go.  You can make a poor man's Kelvin resistor by soldering wires to a low inductance sense resistor right at the body.  Or you can pay more and just buy four wire sense resistors.  The lower the value of the current sense resistor, and the faster the current rise time and fall times, the more important it is to sense with a very low inductance shunt.   These sorts of shunts are available for about $1.00 each from Digikey for the two terminal types and $2 - $6 each for the four terminal types depending on wattage.  TK shows some of the two terminal types in some of his videos.  In one video in particular he demonstrates the huge difference between measurements made across a low inductance shunt and an ordinary cement wire-wound power resistor.








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Offline MarkE

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Hi Jorge

You mentioned wanting to eliminate your rotor magnet.

Try this "old school" multi-vibrator circuit. It is one of my favorites.

It uses the same transistors you are now using in a slightly different configuration.

You may have to experiment with the values for C1 and R1, and if you can measure the inductance of your driving coil, I can approximate better values for C1, R1.

As the circuit  stands it charges the inductor about every 8 milliseconds and discharges in 2 milliseconds, with a burst of high current pulses into the LED.

The scopeshot shows the inductor ramp up and discharge current (white), during the inductor discharge, you can see the LED current pulses in blue'

It should be self starting. You can use a potentiometer in series with R1 to adjust the firing rate and brightness.

It might also help to add a ferrite rod through your coils to raise the inductance. It will also allow the circuit to operate at a lower frequency, so switching loss will not be a big problem.

When everything is properly tuned to your coils, you will be amazed what this little circuit can do.

There are many additional refinements that can be added to the circuit to increase its efficiency, but this is a good starting point for you.

Kind Regards
Vorex1 / ION
A modest capacitor across the LED should improve the circuit efficiency quite a bit.  Alternatively, remove the Schottky diode and you have something similar to your basic garden stick light.


Offline Vortex1

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A modest capacitor across the LED should improve the circuit efficiency quite a bit.  Alternatively, remove the Schottky diode and you have something similar to your basic garden stick light.

Yes, agreed

You can also eliminate C1 and use a 220k resistor  in it's place to eliminate the burst firing effect. The Schottky diode is not really needed as the reverse voltage is not that high.

As I said, this is the most basic circuit, there are considerable enhancements that can be implemented, I have not included them to keep it simple.

Online Void

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@MarkE:  The method I mentioned for measuring the DC input current from the battery using any sort of half decent
quality ammeter should give a fairly reasonably accurate current measurement for the type of circuit that Jorge is using.
That is all Jorge really needs at this point, so that he can get a half decent idea how his circuit is performing, if he is interested.

@Skycollection: When you say bifilar, trifilar, pentafilar, etc., for your primary pancake coil, do you mean as in the way Arto shows it?
Also, what capacitance value are your two super capacitors?

All the best...




Offline MarkE

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@MarkE:  The method I mentioned for measuring the DC input current from the battery using any sort of half decent
quality ammeter should give a fairly reasonably accurate current measurement for the type of circuit that Jorge is using.
That is all Jorge really needs at this point, so that he can get a half decent idea how his circuit is performing, if he is interested.

@Skycollection: When you say bifilar, trifilar, pentafilar, etc., for your primary pancake coil, do you mean as in the way Arto shows it?
Also, what capacitance value are your two super capacitors?

All the best...
If a decent decoupling network is placed on the load side of the DMM, then the DMM can read average current well without question.  If there are pulse currents, then it depends on:  frequency, duty-cycle, and rise-time.  Poynt99 and others have demonstrated that DMMs do a surprisingly good job of averaging AC voltages measured across current sense resistors  going through the DMM carries the caveats that I mentioned.

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Offline skycollection

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Mark E: The supercaps value is 25 F 2,7 volts each one. About the pancake coils, trifilar, cuadrifilar etc, i have in the primary group of pancake coils in "series" is a group of 4 pancakes coils connected in series, and i have other groups in parallel to the primary group, insolated and divided, individually no contact with the primary group, those groups no connected enter in "self oscillation" they are pickup coils, all the pickup coils have a 12 volts led bulbs connected in the green terminal.
I realy have a "simple transformer" and MILEHIGH is correct to say "that is only a simple transformer", i am trying to measure the input voltage, i have a new circuit that i am testing, VORTEX1 send me the squematic circuit, this circuit is good for me because i don´t need the magnet rotor, yesterday i did a test and it works, but i have to change the ceramic condenser and the resistance of 20K, I AM TRYING with different values. I will post a new video and i hope i can measure the input voltage, but i don´t really know how the measure the output voltage because i have a lot of pickup coils....! saludos from mexico...!

Offline Vortex1

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Hi Jorge

Here is a variation that uses a resistor R2 in place of capacitor C1. It runs at about 1000 Hz with 50 millihenry coil.

I have also eliminated the 1N5817 diode, which is ok to do if you keep your input voltage low @4.5 Volts.

You can try different values for R1 and R2 to get the wave shape and frequency that works best with your coils.

If you are going to be working with coils I recommend you buy a cheap LC meter, it will help you understand your circuits better. A cheap one is better than none. I bought this one and am happy with it, although there are cheaper ones on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LC200A-Inductance-Inductor-Capacitance-Capacitor-L-C-Multimeter-Meter-Tester-/111322018636?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19eb4f334c

Regards
Vortex1




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Online Void

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As I said, this is the most basic circuit, there are considerable enhancements that can be implemented, I have not included them to keep it simple.

Hi Vortex1. I would like to test with the multivibrator circuit you showed as well.
Do you have any suggestions for efficiency improvements for this circuit?
All the best...



Online Void

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A modest capacitor across the LED should improve the circuit efficiency quite a bit. 

Hi MarkE. Why does a modest size capacitor across the LED improve the efficiency quite a bit?
Roughly what sort of capacitance value would be suitable?
All the best...


Offline magpwr

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Hi Jorge

Here is a variation that uses a resistor R2 in place of capacitor C1. It runs at about 1000 Hz with 50 millihenry coil.

I have also eliminated the 1N5817 diode, which is ok to do if you keep your input voltage low @4.5 Volts.

You can try different values for R1 and R2 to get the wave shape and frequency that works best with your coils.

If you are going to be working with coils I recommend you buy a cheap LC meter, it will help you understand your circuits better. A cheap one is better than none. I bought this one and am happy with it, although there are cheaper ones on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/LC200A-Inductance-Inductor-Capacitance-Capacitor-L-C-Multimeter-Meter-Tester-/111322018636?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19eb4f334c

Regards
Vortex1

hi Vortex1,

I agree with you since i am using this similar  model LC200A a cheap and reliable L/C meter which produce accurate reading. :D
Optional-I merely modified the wire to thicker transparent audio wire of the same length along with new plug for L/C meter.

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Offline Vortex1

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Hi Vortex1. I would like to test with the multivibrator circuit you showed as well.
Do you have any suggestions for efficiency improvements for this circuit?
All the best...
.

Before you get into improvements you need to define the goal or end use of the device you want to build. When all the required parameters the device are noted, that is usually the stating point for the design.

Then some tailoring can be looked at. I recommend getting very familiar with the circuit and the effects of changing values. Keep a log of coil inductance, R1, R2 values, and log overall efficiency by measuring power input and power output.

Be aware that the transistors may vary in current gain,  so you may get different results from batch to batch. If possible measure the transistors gain then you can easily compute the compound gain of the two devices and set inductor ramping current with R1//R2.

Read the transistor data sheets. If you want to operate at higher voltage input and / or higher power, you may need different transistors.

The circuit can be made to switch faster with a little speedup network (RC) across R2, sometimes just a small capacitor across R2 is all that is needed.

More to come

Regards
Vortex1


Offline Vortex1

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hi Vortex1,

I agree with you since i am using this similar  model LC200A a cheap and reliable L/C meter which produce accurate reading. :D
Optional-I merely modified the wire to thicker transparent audio wire of the same length along with new plug for L/C meter.

That's a good idea, the leads and connectors are not the highest quality and can be upgraded.


Online Void

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@SkyCollection. Thanks for the reply. See the attached diagram of a quadrifilar pancake coil
as designed by Arto Juhani Heino. Is this the design you are using for your quadrifilar primary pancake coil?

@Vortex1. Thanks for the preliminary info on increasing efficiency of the multivibrator circuit.
I hope to find some time this weekend to breadboard it and do some initial tests.

All the best...

Offline skycollection

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VOID, i have other configuration, Heino have four wires in the pancake coil at the same time, my configuration is the same if i put the four pancake coils in parallel...!


Offline skycollection

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Vortex1 with the R2 220K resistance, it doesn´t work, the ceramic small condenser is fantanstic...!

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