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OverUnity Prize => Devices applied for the OU prize => Topic started by: TheGeneralHackr on February 21, 2015, 11:19:07 PM
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I came across a over unity design while messing around with a joule thief schematic. I measured the output and input amperage and to my astonishment there was 5 ma's more coming out of the output then input. Later I found out the meter was off by 5 ma's but that still makes this circuit 100% efficient. I have a few videos up on my channel https://www.youtube.com/user/TheGeneralHackr
I could not replicate this device, I need a specific RF choke core for the transformer. Hopefully one of you can replicate it. I am releasing the schematic on here with a few other pictures.
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Where do you connect the secondary battery ?
Please upload only 800x600 pixel images.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
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Yes, indeed.
It would be nice to know:
-the coil turns and core material
-the place for the second battery in the circuit
-the value of the electrolytic capacitor ("Any"? Like a 10F supercap or a 100 nF tantalum would both work just as well?)
-the type of LED (different colors/types have different fwd voltages)
The battery voltage/time chart is interesting, but also raises some questions.
The no-load terminal voltage of a battery can be very deceiving as to the state-of-charge,
and voltmeters aren't very good at measuring the voltage output of a JT when the circuit
is operating, since they produce such spiky signals.
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Ok here are the specifications on the coil, led and capacitor I have used for the LCAP Circuit.
The capacitor I am currently using is a 16 volt 470 uf electrolitic cap but any electrolitic capacitor should work. I have tried values from 1 uf to around 21,000 uf (Disregard my message about the 80,000 uf tinselkoala I didnt get the exact value until now)
I dont have very much to say about the led other then it is a white 3mm 3 volt led. I bought it in a pack of cheap leds from electronic goldmine.
The coil in this circuit is the most important thing as of now I cannot replicate the circuit I need the exact coil. Here are the details about the coil, it is a rf choke from a old crt tv. The coil has around 20-25 turns of 22 gauge wire showing 0.8 ohms on my muiltimeter. The coil turns are the same on each side. Serial number shown on the side is 37-C5161116 0401 MC REV-B
Here is a updated version of the scematic including the secondary battery and a optional blocking diode between the collector and positive of the secondary battery. The diode I used was a low voltage drop blocking diode.
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The coil in this circuit is the most important thing as of now I cannot replicate the circuit
I need the exact coil. Here are the details about the coil, it is a rf choke from a old crt tv.
The coil has around 20-25 turns of 22 gauge wire showing 0.8 ohms on my muiltimeter.
The coil turns are the same on each side. Serial number shown on the side is 37-C5161116 0401 MC REV-B
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Hi,
Your coil seems to be a common mode choke used at the mains input of (mainly switch mode) power supplies.
At Digikey I did some search because they have a huge selection on such chokes.
See this link:
http://tinyurl.com/n5nakzj (http://tinyurl.com/n5nakzj)
You can position your mouse over the pictures to get a blown-up picture of any of the coils shown,
if that can further help the identification for a similar coil.
Also you can reduce the DC resistance range in the DCR box above the list
(hold down 'Ctrl' while selecting values within the box).
I chose DC resistance range between 0.5 Ohm to 0.95 Ohm.
If you happen to have an L meter, it would help also to choose a similar coil,
because in the charts the inductance for such choke coils is also given.
Your circuit is a kind of blocking oscillator and these can be very efficient indeed.
Very careful measurements are needed to explore their real and true efficiency number.
Gyula
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See any you like?
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Thanks for all of the replays. I don't think anyof those coils will work I have tried to replicate the device with many similar common rf cores but they have not worked. As of now a identical coil is needed.I will keep searching for one with the links given. Later today I will upload a videos of the replicas I have tried to make.
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Well, you are right about one thing: It doesn't work as a JT with a coil selected from that group. I can get a very dim light... but only with the
capacitor disconnected and my finger touching several places in the circuit. 2n2222a and BC337-25 transistors work the same, or rather, don't
work equally, for me in my build of this circuit. I used one that looks like it has the right number of turns and the right thickness of wire.
However those type coils _do_ work just fine in the "basic" JT circuit, when the "dots" of the windings are connected correctly. I would be very
surprised if suddenly a different 1:1 ratio common-mode choke would cause this circuit to "work" as a proper JT with a nice bright light.
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Well, you are right about one thing: It doesn't work as a JT with a coil selected from that group. I can get a very dim light... but only with the
capacitor disconnected and my finger touching several places in the circuit. 2n2222a and BC337-25 transistors work the same, or rather, don't
work equally, for me in my build of this circuit. I used one that looks like it has the right number of turns and the right thickness of wire.
However those type coils _do_ work just fine in the "basic" JT circuit, when the "dots" of the windings are connected correctly. I would be very
surprised if suddenly a different 1:1 ratio common-mode choke would cause this circuit to "work" as a proper JT with a nice bright light.
Try shorting the electrolytic capacitor.
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Hi TheGeneralHackr,
From replication point of view, there are some 'issues' with this circuit shown
in the schematic of Reply #3 above.
With the primary battery of 1.5 V there may not be a sufficient base current to open
the 2N2222A transistor at the startup via the 470 uF capacitor (unless the transistor has
a very high DC gain, hFE ) because the 3 V LED may have too high DC resistance (unless
you test several LEDs or use the LED from the dimly working prototype circuit for replication)
to let an appropiate collector current flow for starting up oscillation, even if the winding sense of the coils
would just let this happen.
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I have tried to replicate the device with many similar common rf cores but they have not worked.
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Besides the issues of the transistor hFE and the LED forward conduction capability at 1.5 V, you may wish
to discharge the 470 uF capacitor before any new startup attempt when you change a component or
coil winding sense or whatever because any residual, leftover charge this capacitor may have it would work against
the 1.5 V battery voltage, rendering the chance for startup even less likely at the difference of the two voltages.
Anyway what I mean is there are no two (or more) identical coils, it is unlikely that solely the coils are critical
in this circuit. And the base current for the transistor is indefinite "by default" via the electrolytic capacitor: try to
connect a 1 MegOhm (or some hundred kOhm) resistor in parallel with that capacitor to see what its effect may be like in helping startup.
EDIT: try to use a red or green LED instead of the white one, these have a forward voltage of 1.6 to 1.9V or so and see
how the circuit works with them.
Gyula
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Try shorting the electrolytic capacitor.
Of course I did try that!
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Tecnicaly Brovin's Kacher- sending high voltage peeks from the collector to the secondary battery? I was thinking about it and redraw the sketch with different place for the cap . I am not gonna show it here yet as you would laugh to me. I will test it tomorrow first :) I do not thing it much matter on the type of coil to be honest.
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OK, here is some more data. My build needs slightly more than 1.5V in the primary supply, apparently. With 1.685 Vin, I can get it to oscillate by shorting then _removing_ the short from the capacitor. Then it oscillates for five or six seconds and then goes out. If I get it oscillating and _then_ short the capacitor, then it stays working until the short is removed, then goes out in five or six seconds. Simply shorting the cap does nothing, the short has to be removed to start the oscs, then the cap can be shorted again during oscs and will make them continue.
This is without the secondary battery connected. When I connect this second battery the oscillations die (capacitor shorted), but sometimes resume when the second battery is disconnected. Without this second battery there are great spikes there on its connection points, up to 60 V peaks, at a frequency of about 50 kHz.
Unshorting the capacitor causes the oscs to fade in a few seconds.
I've blown one LED in testing.The LED failed _shorted_ which is unusual, with a resistance of about 80 ohms both ways, and this caused the circuit to oscillate audibly (much lower frequency) and at higher voltages still.
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OK so, from casual inspection of the circuit it seems that:
The electrolytic should be shorted.
The LED forward voltage drop needs to be less than that of a white LED.
The LED needs reverse voltage protection. A 5.1V zener in series with a 1N4148/1N914 etc should take care of that.
The circuit puts big voltage spikes that the second cell must absorb. What kind of cells are these, primary or rechargeable?
At this point the circuit needs to diverge so much from the original posted, I question that it can be called a replication. Since TheGeneralHackr says he cannot replicate his claimed performance, what are we actually doing?
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I am going to keep working on a rough replication with the suggested added part ex. Red led instead of white and a zener diode in series with the led. The original design continues to work without the capacitor shorted.
Later on I will post the inductance of the original coil.
Both of the cells are identical rechargeable 1500 MAH AA battery's
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I am going to keep working on a rough replication with the suggested added part ex. Red led instead of white and a zener diode in series with the led. The original design continues to work without the capacitor shorted.
Later on I will post the inductance of the original coil.
Both of the cells are identical rechargeable 1500 MAH AA battery's
Hi TheGeneralHackr,
The Zener diode was suggested in series with a high speed Si diode (like 1N4148 or 1N914 or say UF4007 etc) and this series diode combo should be connected in paralell with the LED, ok?
I have made a quick drawing, observe the diodes polarities: the Zener diode should conduct in the reverse direction as normal for it to clamp the voltage spike across the LED down to 5.1 V and add to this the Si diode's 0.7 V. This is needed to protect the LED in the reverse direction, max reverse voltage allowed for them ranges from say 6-7 V to 8-9 V or so, the Zener + the Si diode will protect it above 5.8 V or so.
Gyula
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My question again for GeneralHackr is: What actual data is available? If I have read you correctly:
You do not have a working circuit.
You have not presented how you performed your measurements.
You state that your circuit will only perform its "magic" with a coil that you no longer have, and cannot specify.
And
Replicators are running into problems with the circuitry as documented.
I'm not out to discourage anyone who is interested in a replication. I just think that the lack of data is going to make that a bit difficult. This sort of seems a case of stone soup to me.
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My question again for GeneralHackr is: What actual data is available? If I have read you correctly:
You do not have a working circuit.
You have not presented how you performed your measurements.
You state that your circuit will only perform its "magic" with a coil that you no longer have, and cannot specify.
And
Replicators are running into problems with the circuitry as documented.
I'm not out to discourage anyone who is interested in a replication. I just think that the lack of data is going to make that a bit difficult. This sort of seems a case of stone soup to me.
I would have to agree and add that this post is in the wrong section since it has not been able to demonstrate the one watt for the specified time in the contest rules. It is therefore a bit premature.
Be very careful of the claim of free energy unless you have tested and double checked everything (especially your power measurement) and are sure you can replicate your own work.
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What are you talking about? I have a working device I just have not made a replica. I am having trouble with that. I don't have the meters and oscilloscopes to go into much more detail
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What are you talking about? I have a working device I just have not made a replica. I am having trouble with that. I don't have the meters and oscilloscopes to go into much more detail
In your OP you said:
I came across a over unity design while messing around with a joule thief schematic. I measured the output and input amperage and to my astonishment there was 5 ma's more coming out of the output then input. Later I found out the meter was off by 5 ma's but that still makes this circuit 100% efficient.
Please explain, preferably using a schematic diagram, the exact procedures you used on your circuit to obtain the quoted results. It would be very nice if you would film the working original, demonstrating: 1) That the circuit is able to operate for at least a few minutes on the source battery, and 2) How you have been measuring input and output power.
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Current is not energy and a gain in output "current" doesn't necessarily indicate OU performance, unfortunately. The most suggestive measurement in the present data that could indicate OU performance is the climb or steady voltage level in the Primary battery. Even better would be if the average voltage of both batteries together would climb and continue to climb as you swap them back and forth. Even better than that would be if the batteries blew up from overcharging!
But just the open-curcuit terminal voltage of the batteries isn't by itself an indication of the actual charge level, or energy content, of the batteries.
Even a photo of the actual inductor used in the working unit would be helpful for the builders to see.A "small" photo, 800 pixels wide or less !
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Current is not energy and a gain in output "current" doesn't necessarily indicate OU performance, unfortunately. The most suggestive measurement in the present data that could indicate OU performance is the climb or steady voltage level in the Primary battery. Even better would be if the average voltage of both batteries together would climb and continue to climb as you swap them back and forth. Even better than that would be if the batteries blew up from overcharging!
But just the open-curcuit terminal voltage of the batteries isn't by itself an indication of the actual charge level, or energy content, of the batteries.
Even a photo of the actual inductor used in the working unit would be helpful for the builders to see.A "small" photo, 800 pixels wide or less !
Agreed, and as we know, many are fooled by the warming of the battery during initial use and the slight rise in terminal voltage that can occur during lightly loaded or pulse load conditions , a battery chemistry speedup due to internal heat. Batteries have internal resistance, a cause of the internal heating process.
Stefan has posted this in the OU prize section:
Here you should only post , if you have a running device that you apply for the OverUnity Prize
I'm amazed at the number of entries and none have gotten out of the starting gate. I guess none have read the rules of entry.
http://www.overunity.com/5707/overunity-prize-conditions-for-1-watt-device-pdf-file-attached/
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/BatteryIR.pdf (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/BatteryIR.pdf)
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Well, this is the weirdest JT I have encountered yet. I've been playing around with it for a while and have discovered some very interesting things. I've changed the LED to a Red super-bright one, and I have _not_ implemented the Zener HV bypass protection circuit. I've been doing some scoposcopy. I may show a video later on tonight or tomorrow morning.
Briefly, here's what I've got so far. I'm using one of the common-mode chokes with 3.0 mH inductance on each winding.
I have one scope probe connected to the "Secondary" battery connection but with no battery connected there. I have another probe connected to the Anode of the LED. Both probe references to the Emitter of the transistor (common negative rail for the circuit.)
With a shorting jumper on the 470uF capacitor... connecting a 1.5 V AAA battery to the Primary battery connector does not start the oscillations, nothing happens.
When I touch the Base of the 2n2222a transistor the oscillations start and the Red LED glows nicely. The probe on the Secondary Batt. connector shows positive going spikes of 85-90 volts, very narrow, and the probe on the Anode of the LED shows an elevation of about 3V over baseline and _negative_ going spikes of 80 V or so. Also very narrow. The LED is on because of the nearly 100 percent duty cycle HI of the about 3V over baseline voltage. I think. This is all happening at about 11.6 kHz or so.
Now... I have a small power supply (HP721A) set to 1.55 V. When I attach this to the Secondary battery connector, the oscillations stop and the LED goes out. By touching the Base of the transistor with a finger again I can make the LED come on again... BUT..... here is the really weird part. The voltage indicated on the HP721A's meter jumps up to over 3V ! And this is also shown on the Scope probe attached to the connection as well as a DMM in parallel with the connection. This is DC voltage with no hint of any oscillation detected by the scope probe. And.... the oscillations at the Anode of the LED are now a nearly perfect square pulse train with about 60 percent HI duty cycle at 3V, with only a little ringing on the trailing edge of the pulse, and about 7.6Khz frequency.
I have not been able to duplicate this with a battery connected to the Secondary Batt connection, but it works with the HP power supply consistently. With just a battery connected at the Secondary battery location I can't get the circuit to resume oscillations yet.
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Well I should be home in 10 to 12 hours, and its a long weekend, so im going to join you on this one TK, as it sounds very interesting.
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Here is the coil I used and a look at the design.
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The electrolytic cap will have high leakage while the oxide layer is freshly being "formed", and this may account for some of the startup difficulty as greater leakage bias to the base occurs.
After "forming" the capacitor will have very low leakage resistance and the oscillator may be more difficult to start due to less base bias.
When there is not enough transistor bias, shock excitation can get the oscillator started by perturbing it into oscillation i.e. by just touching the base with a little stray static charge on your body.
In lieu of capacitor leakage, you could also add a high value (100k to 1 meg ) bias resistor to the + supply to get the base biased up into the slight conduction region, thermal noise should do the rest.
Blocking oscillators generally start better when the transformer has a larger turns ratio such that high collector current is not required and the base current is obtained via a current step up from the turns ratio. This allows the transistor to operate as a high gain device by getting sufficient base current drive but not at the expense of high collector current, so it starts easier.
A 1:1 transformer such as a common mode choke used in a blocking oscillator circuit does not afford the necessary current transformation for effective base drive, but is not without some merit for certain special applications. It all depends on what you want to do.
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I have tried this thing and so far I can say : different LED, different results. Also funny thing is how sensitive it was to my hands or body. When I moved my hands close to it I got impulses 2.9Vpp , when I moved my hands away ,impulses disappeared :) The impulses are almost good square waveform, but I have no light on my LED and I do not see any OU effect so far. Also, my cap has to be shorted to get it running. I use different choke, it is standard bi-filar toroid. More to play with :)
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I have tried this thing and so far I can say : different LED, different results. Also funny thing is how sensitive it was to my hands or body. When I moved my hands close to it I got impulses 2.9Vpp , when I moved my hands away ,impulses disappeared :) The impulses are almost good square waveform, but I have no light on my LED and I do not see any OU effect so far. Also, my cap has to be shorted to get it running. I use different choke, it is standard bi-filar toroid. More to play with :)
Sounds like your 2N2222 is running in the RF region.
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Sounds like your 2N2222 is running in the RF region.
Actually BC550 :) Radio frequencies are over 20KHz right? Scope shows me just around 3KHz.
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Actually BC550 :) Radio frequencies are over 20KHz right? Scope shows me just around 3KHz.
The fT of the BC 550 is 300 MHz and an hfe of 800 typical. This is a formula ripe for parasitic oscillations. Note that 3kHz may be the major frequency but low level HF parasitics can occur and cause the "Theremin like" effects especially when all of the stray capacitance and inductance is considered..
I don't doubt that there may be HF parasitics, but only a wide bandwidth scope will tell the truth.
Most experimenters scopes won't show the high frequency low level oscillations.
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Just messing with some Brovin,Jt or what ever you name it. My set-up on the picture below. Funny thing is I have to use two independent grounds to get it oscillate. My battery is old recharchable battery, 1.25V in.
The scope across the electrolytic cap shows 3.3Vrms with some 120mVpp noise. It nicely charge the cap up to 32V if not shorted with the diode . My question is: why two independent grounds needed here?
Cheers
Edit1: there is posibility to use one ground with the diode to the other ground terminal- in this case I am getting on my scope still the same DC line with many negative peaks.
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Its Finally Here!!: http://youtu.be/P2njR2v87TA
The coil in the video is the same one used by Lidmotor to build penny. You can get them at most dollar stores.
The replication actually seems to work better then the original in that it charges the secondary battery much faster!
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Its Finally Here!!: http://youtu.be/P2njR2v87TA (http://youtu.be/P2njR2v87TA)
The coil in the video is the same one used by Lidmotor to build penny. You can get them at most dollar stores.
The replication actually seems to work better then the original in that it charges the secondary battery much faster!
Yes, but please notice that Lidmotor (Rusty) does not claim overunity nor even close to 100% efficiency. He knows his way around these types of circuits. Nothing wrong with testing them...I do it...a lot of folks do it...just please be careful with making claims about performance that can not be backed up. Can you light 400 leds from a "dead" AA battery? I did a few years ago (see my videos) and it is not overunity.
I apologize if I sound harsh. It is just that guys here on this site have been experimenting with Joule Thief circuits for years and have done some amazing things with them...none of them overunity nor even close to 100% efficiency. I think that 85% is about the best so far.
Someone here can correct me on this if I am wrong.
Bill
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I HAVE SOME UPDATES
The lcap has now been replicated with the exact coil and some improvements have been made to the overall circuit, now it will be much easier to self start.
Some changes with version 2
Instead of using a electrolitic cap I am now using a 0.47 uf tantilium cap instead, connected to that in parallel is a 105Mohm pot.
On the load side of the transistor there is a bridge rectifier leading back into the primary 1.5v battery.
The transistor has been changed from a 2N2222A to a MPS2222A.
Here is the new schematic. I hope it is now easier to replicate!
(If you cannot find a coil that works try the twist tie coil from dollar stores they work quiet nice)
I will be posting a follow up video shortly on advances in the circuit
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I HAVE SOME UPDATES
The lcap has now been replicated with the exact coil and some improvements have been made to the overall circuit, now it will be much easier to self start.
Some changes with version 2
Instead of using a electrolitic cap I am now using a 0.47 uf tantilium cap instead, connected to that in parallel is a 105Mohm pot.
On the load side of the transistor there is a bridge rectifier leading back into the primary 1.5v battery.
The transistor has been changed from a 2N2222A to a MPS2222A.
Here is the new schematic. I hope it is now easier to replicate!
(If you cannot find a coil that works try the twist tie coil from dollar stores they work quiet nice)
I will be posting a follow up video shortly on advances in the circuit
This circuit is pretty inefficient because of the diode drops in the full wave bridge.
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These scope shots should lead into more research into the effect of the lcap. I have recently discovered that this circuit may have be drawing from a outside source. It seems to be drawing energy from the air when the circuit is independent from a ground. My reason to belief this is that I have a replica which I HAVE connected to the ground has a much greater effect if charging the battery's by more than 5 fold! So if the effect is magnified when connected to earth it only makes sense that the circuit must be drawing from the air (radio waves, light waves, sound waves, microwaves...etc)
If anyone at all can replicate this circuit and confirm my suspicions please do so!
Any more insight into what it could be drawing from (if it is drawing from anything at all) would be appreciated.
IF ANYONE IS HAVING TROUBLE REPLICATING I HAVE ALL THE PARTS TO MAKE AT LEAST 5 MORE REPLICATIONS AND I CAN SEND THEM TO YOU! JUST CONTACT ME!