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Author Topic: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment  (Read 21846 times)

Offline Floor

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2015, 08:24:39 PM »
@Low-Q

Quote from Low-Q 
"That sounds simpler than it really is. Alternating a force recuire energy.
If you move 1 kg mass from one place to another, it will still be 1kg. You don't change anything by moving it around - not even with the "right timing". I believe you think more complicated than neccessary." End Quote

Which is it ?
"That sounds simpler than it really is."   or  "I believe you think more complicated than neccessary."

What are you saying ?
1. There is no way to get work from magnets.
         or
2. There is no KNOWN way to get work from magnets ?
         or
3. This topic is not interesting to you.                           

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2015, 08:24:39 PM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2015, 11:58:41 PM »
@Low-Q

Quote from Low-Q 
"That sounds simpler than it really is. Alternating a force recuire energy.
If you move 1 kg mass from one place to another, it will still be 1kg. You don't change anything by moving it around - not even with the "right timing". I believe you think more complicated than neccessary." End Quote

Which is it ?
"That sounds simpler than it really is."   or  "I believe you think more complicated than neccessary."

What are you saying ?
1. There is no way to get work from magnets.
         or
2. There is no KNOWN way to get work from magnets ?
         or
3. This topic is not interesting to you.                           
1. There is no way you can get work from magnets.
2. There is KNOWN that you cannot get work from magnets
3. These kind of topics are always interesting


You see, magnets holds potential energy after energy has been pumped in to magnetize them.
If this potential does not change over time, you cannot get work from magnets.


"Charge" a bucket with 10 litre of water. Poor out 5 litre water without reducing the volume of water in it. That is what you try to do with magnets. If the water level doesn't change, no water is poored out - no work done. If the water level drops, you have spent 50% for the potential energy in the water. 50% left in the bucket. However, there is no KNOWN way to poor out 5 litre and still have 10 litre left in the bucket without refilling it. The "hard" question here is how to refill 5 litre of water without water available? No one will ever find out? I think the question is well covered by logic and common sense.


Spend 50% of magnetism in a magnet to do work, and there is 50% left to do work, and the magnet is 50% weaker. When all magnetism is spent, you don't have a magnet any more - or you have an emty bucket, and no potential energy left to do work. Pure logic - but appearently for some, that does not apply to magnets. Well, it does. So now you've learned something new :-)
There is an obvious relationship between what you put in and what you get out. Well proven and well tested. NASA use the same simple laws of physics to hit a target on Mars. If there was a flaw in those laws, NASA wouldn't exist - nor the general industy all over the world.


Think simple. There is nothing spooky about magnets that does not apply to common physics.


Vidar


Offline shylo

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2015, 03:20:57 AM »
I read somewhere once that to store magnets they should have a keeper?
What happens when you bring a strong neo towards a piece of steel?
A magnet will always center itself on a layer of steel.
Offset the center.
artv
« Last Edit: March 29, 2015, 12:19:29 PM by shylo »

Offline Floor

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2015, 08:48:37 AM »
@Low-Q
 
I'll repeat my first question.

You said  "That sounds simpler than it really is."   buy then you say  "I believe you think more complicated than necessary."
Which of these statements do you intend that I take as your meaning ?

Most of what you have said is no more than anyone has heard by time they have finished  middle school.
and doesn't really need to be repeated here.

You have said  "Think simple. There is nothing spooky about magnets that does not apply to common physics."
What a strange statement you make !

The ultimate causes of ANY THING are not actually Know, by ANY ONE.  I think this statement is the first thing to
acknowledge in physics, lest we all become the scientific equivalent of religious zealots.
There is nothing shameful in the acceptance of this fact.

I don't know of any physics that doesn't depend upon action at a distance, do you ?

Common or not, the depths of physics are clearly not simple.

I do agree with you that it is sometimes best to keep to simple thinking.

You say
"If there was a flaw in those laws, NASA wouldn't exist - nor the general industy all over the world."
That is a misleading and untrue  statement.

I don't believe in the big bang theory.  I'm not supposed to.  It's a theory.
I do think there have been lots of big bangs in the universe.

If you want play chess, find a chess board and some one else to play against.

                     floor


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2015, 09:56:22 AM »
@Low-Q
 
I'll repeat my first question.

Quote
You said  "That sounds simpler than it really is."   buy then you say  "I believe you think more complicated than necessary."
Which of these statements do you intend that I take as your meaning ?
Alternating a force without using energy sounds simpler than it really is - is what I meant with the first.
You must think more simple, or more basic - is what I meant with the second.
No matter how I expressed myself, one cannot get energy out of a permanent magnet.

Quote
Most of what you have said is no more than anyone has heard by time they have finished  middle school.
and doesn't really need to be repeated here.

You have said  "Think simple. There is nothing spooky about magnets that does not apply to common physics."
What a strange statement you make !
Why is this strange? And what's wrong repeating simple physics?
Some here appearently havent reach middle shcool yet, or they dropped out already in the kindergrden,
because some here still don't understand that overunity is impossible. Therefor I repeat middle school physics.

Quote
The ultimate causes of ANY THING are not actually Know, by ANY ONE.  I think this statement is the first thing to
acknowledge in physics, lest we all become the scientific equivalent of religious zealots.
There is nothing shameful in the acceptance of this fact.
No, but we don't need yo understand the origin of the universe to have sufficient knowledge about present physics.

Quote
I don't know of any physics that doesn't depend upon action at a distance, do you ?
You're right. In a closed loop however, the distance is repeated. You have a start point you return to and leave all the time.
So the netto distance that has been traveled is zero. Forexample, the circumference of a wheel does not increase as the wheel spins.

Quote
Common or not, the depths of physics are clearly not simple.
Lucky for us these devices we are trying to make over unity, require the shallowest physics skills to debunk.

Quote
I do agree with you that it is sometimes best to keep to simple thinking.
:)

Quote
You say
"If there was a flaw in those laws, NASA wouldn't exist - nor the general industy all over the world."
That is a misleading and untrue  statement.
Maybe it is, but this far, NASA make their calculations right, and the industries make their calculations right when it comes to
production of rockets, engines, electric motors, and other stuff.
IF over unity was common, it would be impossible to calculate correctly,
and unexpected motor or rocket behaviour would occour from nowhere.

Quote
I don't believe in the big bang theory.  I'm not supposed to.  It's a theory.
I do think there have been lots of big bangs in the universe.
I does not matter what we believe. What happend, happend regardless of our opinions.

Quote
If you want play chess, find a chess board and some one else to play against.
Are you mad at me because your idea can't work in practice? Blame Mother Nature - not me! ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2015, 09:56:22 AM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2015, 12:57:46 PM »
1. There is no way you can get work from magnets.
2. There is KNOWN that you cannot get work from magnets
3. These kind of topics are always interesting


You see, magnets holds potential energy after energy has been pumped in to magnetize them.
If this potential does not change over time, you cannot get work from magnets.

Vidar

That is total B.S.

The energy we put into a magnetic material to "magnetize" it, is not equal to the Energy contained in the magnetic system.

The actual amount of energy is E = mc^2, times the % of atoms parallel to the cumulative field domain.
  times another atomic factor that pertains to the electrons and their orbits that varies from atom/molecule.

The energy put into the magnet is ONLY used to re-align the groups of atoms such that their field domains are in a parallel plane.

These are two entirely different values, and one has nothing to do with the other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Real World Example::

Magnetic Material (X): non-magnetized, and of specific mass
              We can utilize various methods of magnetization, using electrical energy, each having different results, but take the example of the most efficient method, and mark down the "energy" used to magnetize the material.

Next, take this newly created "magnet", and place in its' field (not in physical contact) an exactly identical piece of non-magnetized material.
     Over time, this other piece will become magnetized, and measuring the field of both pieces, you find that the field strength of the original material to be close to as it were when you first magnetized it.
The second piece, however, will have its' own field, of similar magnitude.

This form of magnetic induction does not require the same amount of "energy" to be input into it to magnetize the material.
Nor, is that amount of energy "lost" from the original magnet.

What you propose is like comparing apples and oranges.

The energy contained within a magnet comes from atomic interactions of the mass.
  NOT from the energy we put into the material to magnetize it.


Offline MarkE

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2015, 07:06:09 PM »
That is total B.S.

The energy we put into a magnetic material to "magnetize" it, is not equal to the Energy contained in the magnetic system.
The energy consumed magnetizing a magnet: soft or hard always exceeds the energy that can be recovered from the magnet.  This energy is different from the energy that we can convey by using magnet which over time can be many orders of magnitude greater than the the magnetization energy.
Quote
The actual amount of energy is E = mc^2, times the % of atoms parallel to the cumulative field domain.
  times another atomic factor that pertains to the electrons and their orbits that varies from atom/molecule.
The energy that a magnet gains going from a demagnetized to magnetized state does have a mass equivalence.  But the mass equivalence does not drive the energy that it takes to magnetize the magnet, nor does it drive the energy that could ever be recovered by demagnetizing the magnet.
Quote

The energy put into the magnet is ONLY used to re-align the groups of atoms such that their field domains are in a parallel plane.
And once magnetized, the difference between the ordered and unordered states is the potential energy stored in the magnet.
Quote

These are two entirely different values, and one has nothing to do with the other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Real World Example::

Magnetic Material (X): non-magnetized, and of specific mass
              We can utilize various methods of magnetization, using electrical energy, each having different results, but take the example of the most efficient method, and mark down the "energy" used to magnetize the material.

Next, take this newly created "magnet", and place in its' field (not in physical contact) an exactly identical piece of non-magnetized material.
     Over time, this other piece will become magnetized, and measuring the field of both pieces, you find that the field strength of the original material to be close to as it were when you first magnetized it.
The second piece, however, will have its' own field, of similar magnitude.
Try that with both pieces cryogenically cooled and see what happens.  Does that tell you something?
Quote

This form of magnetic induction does not require the same amount of "energy" to be input into it to magnetize the material.
Nor, is that amount of energy "lost" from the original magnet.
Indeed.  But it does not mean that energy was not expended.  Again:  try that in a cryogenically cooled environment and compare the results.
Quote

What you propose is like comparing apples and oranges.

The energy contained within a magnet comes from atomic interactions of the mass.
  NOT from the energy we put into the material to magnetize it.
Reference?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2015, 07:06:09 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2015, 08:12:08 PM »
various quotes from Low-Q

“Alternating a force without using energy sounds simpler than it really is - is what I meant with the first.  You must think more simple, or more basic - is what I meant with the second.”

"you must think more simple, or more basic"  Yes I see your point.

But I don't  think you meant  more shallow or superficially, did you?

If we are looking for express thinking,  simply don' think or question in the first place.
Just say  "conservation of energy"  and skip the rest,  then move on to the
next "discussion" topic.

You say "one cannot get energy out of a permanent magnet."

Yes I understand that this is the conventional point of view, and I truly understand
the usefulness of taking that point of view.

"Why is this strange? And what's wrong repeating simple physics?"

It is seemed strange to me that you do not understand that what underlies simple physics doesn't
prove that energy is conserved in all situations and conditions.  I see now that perhaps you do understand this.

The idea that energy is conserved is indeed a very useful one.

Repeating simple physics as if they are proofs of things which they are not proofs of
is wrong.

Some here apparently havent reach middle shcool yet, or they dropped out already in the kindergrden,
because some here still don't understand that over unity is impossible.


"Therefor I repeat middle school physics."   

Ok  I see.

"No, but we don't need yo understand the origin of the universe to have sufficient knowledge about present physics."

Let me restate my self,  the CAUSES of the physics that are present now are not simple. (I am not referring to the origin of the universe here)

I hope you will understand, that I prefer to decide for my self as to what is sufficient knowledge
and which or what physics are "present" ?

"In a closed loop however, the distance is repeated. "You have a start point you return to and leave all the time.So the netto distance that has been traveled is zero. For example, the circumference of a wheel does not increase as the wheel spins.  Lucky for us these devices we are trying to make over unity, require the shallowest physics skills to debunk.   :) "

Indeed luckily for you, not so much for me.

Maybe it is, but this far, NASA make their calculations right, and the industries make their calculations right when it comes to
production of rockets, engines, electric motors, and other stuff.

Yea NASA rocks.

"IF over unity was common, it would be impossible to calculate correctly,"

I agree with you very much so.

and unexpected motor or rocket behaviour would occour from nowhere.
I does not matter what we believe. What happend, happend regardless of our opinions.
Are you mad at me because your idea can't work in practice? Blame Mother Nature - not me! ;)
[/quote]

Sorry I was a little testy with you.  Thanks for your post.

            best wishes

                    floor

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2015, 11:48:33 PM »
That is total B.S.

The energy we put into a magnetic material to "magnetize" it, is not equal to the Energy contained in the magnetic system.

The actual amount of energy is E = mc^2, times the % of atoms parallel to the cumulative field domain.
  times another atomic factor that pertains to the electrons and their orbits that varies from atom/molecule.

The energy put into the magnet is ONLY used to re-align the groups of atoms such that their field domains are in a parallel plane.

These are two entirely different values, and one has nothing to do with the other.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Real World Example::

Magnetic Material (X): non-magnetized, and of specific mass
              We can utilize various methods of magnetization, using electrical energy, each having different results, but take the example of the most efficient method, and mark down the "energy" used to magnetize the material.

Next, take this newly created "magnet", and place in its' field (not in physical contact) an exactly identical piece of non-magnetized material.
     Over time, this other piece will become magnetized, and measuring the field of both pieces, you find that the field strength of the original material to be close to as it were when you first magnetized it.
The second piece, however, will have its' own field, of similar magnitude.

This form of magnetic induction does not require the same amount of "energy" to be input into it to magnetize the material.
Nor, is that amount of energy "lost" from the original magnet.

What you propose is like comparing apples and oranges.

The energy contained within a magnet comes from atomic interactions of the mass.
  NOT from the energy we put into the material to magnetize it.
Interesting. That was new to me, so I might be wrong on that particular subject.
And thanks for your educational approach :-)


Vidar





Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2015, 12:58:34 AM »

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2015, 12:58:34 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2015, 01:07:29 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG8zRbXQ-mQ

He says in the annotation that all you need to do is blow on the ball to get it in the gate...or something to that effect, yet, he rolls the ball as if he were in a mini bowling alley.  I submit that with that much input energy, he could have the ball go even further if there were no magnets there at all.  He is deluding himself.

Bill

Offline shylo

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2015, 12:30:46 PM »
Hi Bill, You must have watched a different clip than me. From what I could see he just releases the ball , It doesn't look like he is throwing the ball.
Regardless that type of set-up will never be capable of doing anything usefull. IMO
artv


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2015, 01:19:35 PM »
He says in the annotation that all you need to do is blow on the ball to get it in the gate...or something to that effect, yet, he rolls the ball as if he were in a mini bowling alley.  I submit that with that much input energy, he could have the ball go even further if there were no magnets there at all.  He is deluding himself.

Bill

TK gives the ball a bit of a nudge, but the ball rolls uphill in this video 3 ramps, and then off the table, well out of the field.
I think his further conclusions deterred him from this line of experimentation, but it does give a decent example of what this thread is attempting to do.

Offline Floor

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2015, 04:43:47 PM »
@At all

For the record / information.

1. The device represented in the drawings I first presented, was built. (the ramp is the shorter ramp
version and neither the sphere or cylinders are permanent magnets)
2. The roller constantly accelerates as it traverses the ramp.  (no measurement other than
eye ball observation).
3. The "magnetic current being shorted"  on the bottom side of the ramp, by the steel plates,
greatly reduces any magnetic attraction to the "roller" on that side of the ramp, and appears to,
to some extent  decrease the attraction at the tip of the ramp.  This, combined with the the momentum
of the roller, allows the roller to escape the ramp.
4. Traverse of the ramp by various rollers,  at any angle, including completely vertical can be done,
when using various "lighter weight" rollers.
5. A particular range of  roller sizes, ascended the ramp at 4 deg. max,  while still able to escape the ramp.
6. Escape of the roller was only possible when using a vary limited range of weights for the roller, even
with the ramp at 0 deg. (level).
7. No external energy is being applied by Mr. hand.

I have no doubt that this simple of a device can approach unity nearly, if the ramp were thinner.
This is a simple and reasonable conclusion.  I did not say exceed it.  I have no reason to expect
other wise in the design presented.

Next....

In the present embodiment, the roller is attracted to and transported along the ramp by
(what I will call) a sheer angle of attraction to the magnets (not directly toward a pole).

The roller's escape is like wise at a sheer angle.

What I am trying to develop is a design that makes use of a more or less straight on approach and escape
of the roller to the magnet poles, except, that a final exiting of the roller from the ramp will be 90 deg.
from direct. All momentum will be lost (as momentum) except the rational ?

Yes, while gaining height / energy.  OK?

                                       Good hunting gentle persons
                                       thanks for you time
                                                  floor


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2015, 04:04:27 AM »
TK gives the ball a bit of a nudge, but the ball rolls uphill in this video 3 ramps, and then off the table, well out of the field.
I think his further conclusions deterred him from this line of experimentation, but it does give a decent example of what this thread is attempting to do.

TK?

I was talking about the guy in the video posted just above that says..."Gotcha" at the end.  That was not TK.  This guy tosses the ball into the gates like he is bowling...I have watched it like 5 times now.

What video of TK are you talking about?

Bill

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Re: Thin Magnetic Ramp experiment
« Reply #44 on: March 31, 2015, 04:04:27 AM »

 

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