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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 3501566 times)

hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7770 on: February 17, 2017, 09:48:17 PM »

Chris,

We all have more to learn concerning electromagnetic induction.  Two authors on the subject I find most enlightening are Edwards and Saha.  I've attached two of their papers below.

pm






Hi Partzman - I couldn't agree more. The more I learn, the more I realise I have yet to learn.


Thank you for the pdf's!


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7771 on: February 17, 2017, 10:20:48 PM »

Chris,

So for Luc's replication, if I understand correctly, is this the right connection ?






Hi MichelM - No - You need to go back and re-read the posts we posted about this.




Dog-One - Beautifully put!!!

There is a kind of Magnetic Symmetry between the POC. This SHOULD keep people up at night, studying why this is so! This fact alone proves several things, and some here will already know, its just a phasing between the two coils, and this is true, but its also more!

GotoLuc has the Winding Direction Correct! For the Configuration he has chosen! Also the Wiring Is Correct! He has paid attention there. And so he should, I spent nearly a year (For Free) trying to help him and Tesla Energy Solutions, GotoLuc's Employer along with Chet K, with their experiments. TES are doing some good work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXP2v5ZkUw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K69qAc3I_7c

Here in lies the same problems, small things that are over looked, and no attention paid to, as Luc says in the video: "that I have had and was going to replicate Wistiti's bucking coil test that he had done some many months back..." But alas, the entire concept of this thread has been missed! Bucking, or very much more importantly Opposing Magnetic Fields of the Partnered Output Coils!

@Gotoluc - I ask you to think why your Magnetic Fields are not opposing? Please do the MrPreva Experiment as suggested and explain why your Fields are not opposing?




For a long time, I have recommended the MrPreva Experiment, its very simple, and a lot can be learnt!


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org




itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7772 on: February 17, 2017, 11:16:15 PM »

Chris,

i am glad you are so enthusiastic:.

I have added a 4th probe (purple) across the coils showing the voltage across them (they are parallel, so having the same voltage).
We have a 90° phase difference between input voltage (purple, leading) and input current (green) as should be in an inductive circuit.
Only at resonance around 7KHz this phase creeps towards 0°.

The phase of the yellow and blue signals, representing the currents through the both coils, can be manipulated (0 - 180°) by changing the frequency.
But nowhere in the range covered (162Khz - 600Hz) i notice anything unusual.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm6K-3O8rM0

Itsu

dieter

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7773 on: February 18, 2017, 03:43:20 AM »
Nice video, Itsu,


would you do me a favour?
hooking a big cap in parallel with one of the bucking coils and do the same test once more?


I'd be really curious about the outcome.

hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7774 on: February 18, 2017, 04:41:53 AM »

Chris,

i am glad you are so enthusiastic:.

I have added a 4th probe (purple) across the coils showing the voltage across them (they are parallel, so having the same voltage).
We have a 90° phase difference between input voltage (purple, leading) and input current (green) as should be in an inductive circuit.
Only at resonance around 7KHz this phase creeps towards 0°.

The phase of the yellow and blue signals, representing the currents through the both coils, can be manipulated (0 - 180°) by changing the frequency.
But nowhere in the range covered (162Khz - 600Hz) i notice anything unusual.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm6K-3O8rM0

Itsu



Hey Itsu - Thanks for this post!

I am having real trouble with this sentence: "But nowhere in the range covered (162Khz - 600Hz) i notice anything unusual."

I was always taught to look at the smallest things. Break things down to the smallest possible components and take them for what they are.

Taking the Voltage and Current on each Coil individually, then comparing the individual results may help in your search?

Some Points:

   1: When the Peak to Peak Voltage across the Capacitor is at maximum the Circuit is in resonance.
   2: The Voltage and Current on Coil, LOne will be close to in phase, ± a few degrees.
   3: The Voltage and Current on the second Coil, LTwo will be 180 Degrees out of phase, ± a few degrees.

Just the first three things above are in need of investigation, let alone other things in the circuit that should have been picked up. E.G: In an LC Resonant Circuit, Voltage and Current should be 90 degrees Out of Phase, as you point out, but, your scope shot is not 90 Degrees, its closer to 45 Degrees. Why are we seeing this difference?

So, if one looks at the power factor, one see's a Negative Power Factor: -0.7986355 + Voltage and - Current on LTwo

Did you know there is a Negative Power Factor there? Have you ever seen a Negative Power Factor before? Between two Coils on a Single Core?


Quote from: Wikipedia link=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor


In electrical engineering, the power factor of an AC electrical power system is defined as the ratio of the real power flowing to the load to the apparent power in the circuit, and is a dimensionless number in the closed interval of −1 to 1. A power factor of less than one means that the voltage and current waveforms are not in phase, reducing the instantaneous product of the two waveforms (V × I). Real power is the capacity of the circuit for performing work in a particular time. Apparent power is the product of the current and voltage of the circuit. Due to energy stored in the load and returned to the source, or due to a non-linear load that distorts the wave shape of the current drawn from the source, the apparent power will be greater than the real power. A negative power factor occurs when the device (which is normally the load) generates power, which then flows back towards the source, which is normally considered the generator.



There is a TON of things one can learn here! I want to go into massive detail, but don't want to confuse anyone.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org




P.S: Very nice job on the Video - Thanks!!!


hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7775 on: February 18, 2017, 05:52:01 AM »



The Figures I used were from Itsu's Posted Scope Shot. I downloaded Itsu's Video in 720P and have better Figures. See attached:

Using the figures, when Itsu went into resonance (approx. 8.6KHz) we get a Power Factor (L2) of: -0.9884939

Ok, now everyone needs to know:
   1: LC Resonance, Voltage and Current is 90 Degrees out of Phase, in Itsu's experiment and mine, we see nearly Zero
   2: The Power Factor on L2 is not a normal thing, we see it only when Power is being "Generated"! As I have stated millions of times.
   3: We have two Currents 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, thus, applying the Right Hand Grip Rule, we have two Magnetic Field 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, or Opposing!!!

I don't want to bore you with more information, but really this is about as NOT Normal as you would normally see!!! A Negative Power Factor is SUPER important! It is the "Generation" of Electrical Energy!!! Only in a Generator, or in a Transformer would we see this. In saying this, Voltage and Current would very unlikely be 180 Degrees out of Phase on the same branch!!! By adding an Asymmetric component, another Coil do we get the opportunity to bring about something special!

Common Verpies, Cifta and all you other super smart guys, how about we hear from you and see what your thoughts are...


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7776 on: February 18, 2017, 11:01:51 AM »
Nice video, Itsu,


would you do me a favour?
hooking a big cap in parallel with one of the bucking coils and do the same test once more?


I'd be really curious about the outcome.


Hi Dieter,

i can do that, however, this "big cap in parallel with one of the bucking coils" will be parallel also to the other coil and the 1uF cap as
we are dealing with a parallel LC circuit.

It will probably only further decrease the resonance frequency of this parallel circuit (presently around 7KHz).

We will see.


Itsu

seychelles

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7777 on: February 18, 2017, 11:11:12 AM »
MY FEW BUCKS WORTH. YOU GUYS HAVE NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT THAT THE FIELD EMITTING
FROM THE CORE OUTWARDS IS OF IMPORTANCE . HENCE THE WAY THE WINDING IS DONE IS
PARAMOUNT TO GREATER OUTPUT..

itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7778 on: February 18, 2017, 11:31:14 AM »
Chris,

this simple little circuit as you call it, is not that simple to dissect as it contains much interacting signals / properties.
Sometimes i think it kind of "flips over" as i cannot get the 180° out of phase signals across the 1 Ohm resistors (they are in phase suddenly).
I will try to capture that situation.


Anyway, some confusion here:

 
Quote
1: When the Peak to Peak Voltage across the Capacitor is at maximum the Circuit is in resonance.
2: The Voltage and Current on Coil, LOne will be close to in phase, ± a few degrees.
3: The Voltage and Current on the second Coil, LTwo will be 180 Degrees out of phase, ± a few degrees.


With "LOne" you mean the 11 turn coil?
With "second Coil, LTwo" you mean the 7 turn coil?
These points i agree with (remind you that the current probe (green) induces some phase delay), but in your 2e post you say:

 
Quote
Ok, now everyone needs to know:
   1: LC Resonance, Voltage and Current is 90 Degrees out of Phase, in Itsu's experiment and mine, we see nearly Zero
   2: The Power Factor on L2 is not a normal thing, we see it only when Power is being "Generated"! As I have stated millions of times.
   3: We have two Currents 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, thus, applying the Right Hand Grip Rule, we have two Magnetic Field 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, or Opposing!!!


that 1st point is opposite as what you mention above, in a parallel circuit in LC resonance, the voltage and current are (should be) in phase.
And that is what we see happening allthough not exactly 0°, but i blame that on the current probes delay factor and the unusual influence of the bucking coil.


Your question on Negative Power Factor i have to study on as i don't know, perhaps some more knowledgeable people can step in here.

I will play around some more with this circuit.

Itsu

partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7779 on: February 18, 2017, 04:20:36 PM »


The Figures I used were from Itsu's Posted Scope Shot. I downloaded Itsu's Video in 720P and have better Figures. See attached:

Using the figures, when Itsu went into resonance (approx. 8.6KHz) we get a Power Factor (L2) of: -0.9884939

Ok, now everyone needs to know:
   1: LC Resonance, Voltage and Current is 90 Degrees out of Phase, in Itsu's experiment and mine, we see nearly Zero
   2: The Power Factor on L2 is not a normal thing, we see it only when Power is being "Generated"! As I have stated millions of times.
   3: We have two Currents 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, thus, applying the Right Hand Grip Rule, we have two Magnetic Field 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, or Opposing!!!

I don't want to bore you with more information, but really this is about as NOT Normal as you would normally see!!! A Negative Power Factor is SUPER important! It is the "Generation" of Electrical Energy!!! Only in a Generator, or in a Transformer would we see this. In saying this, Voltage and Current would very unlikely be 180 Degrees out of Phase on the same branch!!! By adding an Asymmetric component, another Coil do we get the opportunity to bring about something special!

Common Verpies, Cifta and all you other super smart guys, how about we hear from you and see what your thoughts are...


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Chris,

Analyzing the input and output power levels of Itsu's scope shot in your post is very interesting.  For example, the input voltage is ~1.555v rms and the input current measured as shown is 5.84ma rms with a phase angle of ~20 degrees so, the input power is 1.555 x 5.84e-3 x cosine(20) = 8.53mw.

Pout1 is 412mv rms across 1 ohm for (.412^2)/1 = 170mw and Pout2 is 205mv rms across 1 ohm for (.205^2)/1 = 42mw for a total Pout = 212mw.  The COP = .212/.00853 = 24.85!!!!

Now a question for everyone, is this correct?  If not, why?

pm

itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7780 on: February 18, 2017, 05:49:51 PM »

PM,

I will answer that.

i did mention it in the video to not look at the figures, it was the phase relationships i was after.
I should of have mentioned it in the post as well.

The problem is (and i am sure you know this) that the input current value seen on the scope (5.84ma rms) would only be valid with the vertical amp. setting
of the green trace to be 10mA/Div. as it obvious shows on the screenshot.

But... this 10mA/Div. is a fixed setting for a Tek current probe to be used, the real vertical amp setting is determined by the current probe controller.
In this case i am pretty sure the controller was NOT set to the shown (fixed) 10mA/Div., so the 5.84ma rms value needs to be adjusted.
As i did not note this value now (which i normally do) i don't know what it was, but very probably it was higher.


I have redone this setup to find out the real value of the current controller vertical amp setting and it was 200mA/Div.
So the shown 5.84ma rms (@ 10mA/Div.) should be adjusted by a factor 20, meaning 116.8mA RMS.

The input power therefor comes out at 1.555 x 116.8e-3 x cosine(20) = 170.67mw.
This brings us roughly back to unity.


Itsu

gotoluc

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7781 on: February 18, 2017, 06:10:48 PM »
@ Itsu,

Last year I built many variations of bucking coil circuits which I tested for months but did not publicly share. Tests were done with and without resonance.
The more interesting effect was with resonance and at one point I thought I had OU.
However, after much more investigation I found the current probe was not measuring accurate results with circuits in resonance range.
There seems to be a very strong EMF emitting outwards from these circuits which may affect a current probe, which btw was the same one as you used in your last video.
It may not be the case with all but I would recommend you also add CSR probe to compare the two just to be safe.

Kind regards

Luc

partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7782 on: February 18, 2017, 06:14:39 PM »
PM,

I will answer that.

i did mention it in the video to not look at the figures, it was the phase relationships i was after.
I should of have mentioned it in the post as well.

The problem is (and i am sure you know this) that the input current value seen on the scope (5.84ma rms) would only be valid with the vertical amp. setting
of the green trace to be 10mA/Div. as it obvious shows on the screenshot.

But... this 10mA/Div. is a fixed setting for a Tek current probe to be used, the real vertical amp setting is determined by the current probe controller.
In this case i am pretty sure the controller was NOT set to the shown (fixed) 10mA/Div., so the 5.84ma rms value needs to be adjusted.
As i did not note this value now (which i normally do) i don't know what it was, but very probably it was higher.


I have redone this setup to find out the real value of the current controller vertical amp setting and it was 200mA/Div.
So the shown 5.84ma rms (@ 10mA/Div.) should be adjusted by a factor 20, meaning 116.8mA RMS.

The input power therefor comes out at 1.555 x 116.8e-3 x cosine(20) = 170.67mw.
This brings us roughly back to unity.


Itsu

Itsu,

OK, thanks for your explanation.  My thots on an accurate power input analysis regarding power drawn from the signal generator would be to move the low side or grounded end of the 1ufd resonance cap to the low side of the output resistors but above the current probe.  The probe would now include the current thru the cap and could possibly change the overall results.

Good work!

pm

itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7783 on: February 18, 2017, 07:18:41 PM »
@ Itsu,

Last year I built many variations of bucking coil circuits which I tested for months but did not publicly share. Tests were done with and without resonance.
The more interesting effect was with resonance and at one point I thought I had OU.
However, after much more investigation I found the current probe was not measuring accurate results with circuits in resonance range.
There seems to be a very strong EMF emitting outwards from these circuits which may affect a current probe, which btw was the same one as you used in your last video.
It may not be the case with all but I would recommend you also add CSR probe to compare the two just to be safe.

Kind regards

Luc

Hi Luc,

thanks for this info, you are absolutly right, and i did notice that too.
Normally i compare the current probe with a 0.1 Ohm non inductive CSR if the reading matters like in case of input/output measurments.

There are cases (resonance?) where the values differ much and then i normally use the csr value.

Thanks for mentioning it.

Itsu

itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7784 on: February 18, 2017, 07:21:08 PM »
Itsu,

OK, thanks for your explanation.  My thots on an accurate power input analysis regarding power drawn from the signal generator would be to move the low side or grounded end of the 1ufd resonance cap to the low side of the output resistors but above the current probe.  The probe would now include the current thru the cap and could possibly change the overall results.

Good work!

pm


Ooops,   yes you are right, i now measure current within the parallel circuit, thats not good, i will change that,  thanks.


Itsu