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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 3501041 times)

Pirate88179

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5685 on: October 17, 2015, 03:42:16 AM »
Just for the record, I am enjoying this back and forth and I am learning something from it. (I assume others are as well) I also like how civil this back and forth is.  I appreciate Brad's willingness to do the testing as requested.  How he finds the time to do so, I have no idea.  I have known MH for quite a while now and, his motives are good, as are .99's.  Getting to the bottom of this will be good for everyone.

I suppose I should also thank Chris for his topic which brought all of this about.  O.U claims aside Chris, you done good.

Bill

EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5686 on: October 17, 2015, 04:03:44 AM »
Just for the record, I am enjoying this back and forth and I am learning something from it. (I assume others are as well) I also like how civil this back and forth is.  I appreciate Brad's willingness to do the testing as requested.  How he finds the time to do so, I have no idea.  I have known MH for quite a while now and, his motives are good, as are .99's.  Getting to the bottom of this will be good for everyone.

I suppose I should also thank Chris for his topic which brought all of this about.  O.U claims aside Chris, you done good.

Bill


Well thank you Bill ;)

Tinman is a Legend without a doubt!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5687 on: October 17, 2015, 04:13:00 AM »
Just for the record, I am enjoying this back and forth and I am learning something from it. (I assume others are as well) I also like how civil this back and forth is.  I appreciate Brad's willingness to do the testing as requested.  How he finds the time to do so, I have no idea.  I have known MH for quite a while now and, his motives are good, as are .99's.  Getting to the bottom of this will be good for everyone.

I suppose I should also thank Chris for his topic which brought all of this about.  O.U claims aside Chris, you done good.

Bill

On a separate note:


I can assure you, 100% - OU is very easily achievable!!! But only once the basic understanding is obtained!!!

How about we use another term, how about we call it: "Evolution"

Quote

evolution

/ˌiːvəˈluːʃ(ə)n,ˈɛv-/

noun

noun: evolution; plural noun: evolutions

1. the process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms during the history of the earth.

synonyms: Darwinism, natural selection
"early ecologists were not interested in evolution"

2. the gradual development of something.
"the forms of written languages undergo constant evolution"

synonyms: development, advancement, growth, rise, progress, progression, expansion, extension, unfolding; More



I really believe in the Human Race, we can do it! Together... Although we have had a terrible time for so long as a race, war, all the bad stuff, we are at a point in History where we can really make a difference!!!


AT or Ampere Turns, although it appears that it is being phased out, is a rather important concept. It is the basic Magnetic Field - The Current through the specified Number of Turns in a Coil or Solenoid!

If a Magnetic Field X (Primary) were to do work on a Magnetisable Core Magnetising it, then a Magnetic Field Y (Secondary) Opposes it with equal but opposite Force, we need an equal but Opposite Magnetic Field Z (Tertiary), which works in unison with the Primary - Thus Newton's Laws of Motion, Action, Reaction and Counter-Reaction

Where does AT come in? Each Coil carry's the Current to create the same Magnetic Fields. Do they Cancel? No of Course not, but Action for each Reaction is counter balanced!

So, lets Evolve! Lets get some "Evolution" going on!!! Lets get it right! Do the best we can do and be the best we can be!

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5688 on: October 17, 2015, 05:17:26 AM »
Just for the record, I am enjoying this back and forth and I am learning something from it. (I assume others are as well) I also like how civil this back and forth is.  I appreciate Brad's willingness to do the testing as requested.  How he finds the time to do so, I have no idea.  I have known MH for quite a while now and, his motives are good, as are .99's.  Getting to the bottom of this will be good for everyone.

I suppose I should also thank Chris for his topic which brought all of this about.  O.U claims aside Chris, you done good.

Bill

I actually performed a resonance experiment today, can you believe it?  MileHigh actually did an experiment.  I built a PC for a friend and it was making this horrible in and out groaning sound that peaked about every 10 seconds.  There are several hard drives and you can get a beating effect that modulates the resonating metal rack inside the case that holds the hard drives..  There is nothing worse than a moaning groaning computer box when you are trying to watch a movie.  Shades of the groaning bellows from Mr. Wayne's Brain - being investigated by the FBI.

So I went to the Dollar store and bought some hot glue sticks for my hot glue gun and two big packs of cheapo rubber erasers.   I opened up the box and hot-glued about a dozen erasers to the sides of the metal rack in between the hard drives and elsewhere.   Then I closed up the box and sacrificed one eraser to the Great Spirit of Wayne's Brains and the Groaning Bellows.

Low and behold, the horrible moaning and groaning from the PC box was banished and gone!  A successful experiment in resonance!  Better than the damn Pistol shrimp dammit!

Pirate88179

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5689 on: October 17, 2015, 05:20:42 AM »
I actually performed a resonance experiment today, can you believe it?  MileHigh actually did an experiment.  I built a PC for a friend and it was making this horrible in and out groaning sound that peaked about every 10 seconds.  There are several hard drives and you can get a beating effect that modulates the resonating metal rack inside the case that holds the hard drives..  There is nothing worse than a moaning groaning computer box when you are trying to watch a movie.  Shades of the groaning bellows from Mr. Wayne's Brain - being investigated by the FBI.

So I went the Dollar store and bought some hot glue sticks for my hot glue gun and two big packs of cheapo rubber erasers.   I opened up the box and hot-glued about a dozen erasers to the sides of the metal rack in between the hard drives and elsewhere.   Then I closed up the box and sacrificed one eraser to the Great Spirit of Wayne's Brains and the Groaning Bellows.

Low and behold, the horrible moaning and groaning from the PC box was banished and gone!  A successful experiment in resonance!  Better than the damn Pistol shrimp dammit!

MH did an experiment?  We have to mark this day and celebrate it from now on. (grin)  I suppose this ends all of the complaints that MH does not do experiments.  Who knew?

Bill

gotoluc

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5690 on: October 17, 2015, 06:43:00 AM »
I have  ;)
But i first need to make myself another isolation transformer for my scope,as the UPS is now RS.
I want to remove the common ground between the scope and SG before i post any results,as something is not right here. I have a feeling the common ground is throwing out the measurements on the scope some how.

A good way to isolate is run your scope off an inverter connected to a 12vdc battery

Luc

Jimboot

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5691 on: October 17, 2015, 11:29:46 AM »
Whoa what's all this kumbyya and MH  doing an experiment? Very interesting discussion guys. Btw Brad I'm assuming RS = rodent feces .
nice work with cores. How dense are they with the filings?

tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5692 on: October 17, 2015, 02:24:51 PM »
A good way to isolate is run your scope off an inverter connected to a 12vdc battery

Luc

Thinking about it,my UPS should have a 1:1 isolation transformer in it. I doubt it was the transformer it self that went,so i will check that out before building one out of MOT's.

Going to do some pulsed DC test on it now,and see how we go with that. Once i have my isolation transformer setup,i will carry out the test MH requested.

ramset

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5693 on: October 17, 2015, 02:47:51 PM »
MH
Quote

I actually performed a resonance experiment today, can you believe it?  <snip>  A successful experiment in resonance!  Better than the damn Pistol shrimp dammit!

end quote

How many Photons did you manage to knock out of orbit with _your_ experiment ?

The Bug rules and serves as an example to us mere mortals ......

Nice try but a Rooky assumption.


 

tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5694 on: October 17, 2015, 04:15:21 PM »
Below is a diagram with test results i carried out tonight.
I used both the scope and my DMM to gather the numbers.My DMMs are +/- 5% up to 10KHz,and were within 3% of the scope data.

Vortex1

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5695 on: October 17, 2015, 05:56:56 PM »
FWIW:

An actual transformer model would include what you see in the attachment, and in your case, you could include an additional secondary with it's own associated leakage inductance, distributed capacitance, resistance etc.

As you can see from the model, the distributed capacitance will form tank circuits with the winding inductance and the leakage inductance, damped somewhat by the winding resistance and applied load, if any.

When testing, it is a good idea to do wide band frequency response vs voltage plots of each winding , loaded and unloaded.

As the various tank circuits come alive at their specific frequencies, an increase of voltage may be seen for that particular winding.

Parasitics can be flattened if properly loaded, but testing at only one frequency gives a tiny slice of the total frequency response of a given transformer design, and a small picture of the overall performance.

Depending on the coupling coefficient between the  transformer windings, resonances may couple to other windings to a greater or lesser degree.

As an example a high quality audio grade output transformer my have a power bandwidth from 20 to 20,000 Hz, yet still exhibit some peaky response on it's secondaries, usually in the upper range due to distributed capacitance effects.

Regards, Vortex1

gotoluc

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5696 on: October 17, 2015, 06:54:18 PM »
Thinking about it,my UPS should have a 1:1 isolation transformer in it. I doubt it was the transformer it self that went,so i will check that out before building one out of MOT's.

Going to do some pulsed DC test on it now,and see how we go with that. Once i have my isolation transformer setup,i will carry out the test MH requested.

Yes, a ups is as good but it would be best to not have it plugged in the grid to have true isolation.

Pulsed DC sounds like a good experiment and don't forget to try your diode.

Interesting stuff mate!

Thanks for sharing

Luc

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5697 on: October 17, 2015, 07:59:30 PM »
Brad:

You are back to the same issue of using a non-linear load and you are trying to make power measurements.  Your measurements are no good even though you were making true RMS measurements.  Can your DSO multiply two waveforms together?  If yes, the only way to measure power in the setup you show in your diagram is to put the DSO on the input voltage and current and do the multiplication, and then put the DSO on the output voltage and current and do the multiplication.

If you get rid of the FWBR and the LED then all of these problems go away and you can make the measurements with your multimeters.

Here is my suggestion:  Even if there is very low impedance on the input it's not going to hurt your function generator.  You can make R1 a standard 1 ohm or 0.5 ohm current sensing resistor.  Then you define your input power as the power that is pumped into the promary coil only.  i.e.; you ignore the power dissipated in the R1 resistor.   Then try different load resistors and frequencies, whatever you want, on the inner secondary.

If you want to be a keener, you will know the RMS currents in the primary and the inner secondary.  Therefore you can easily calculate the power dissipated in the primary coil and inner secondary coil.

What you are looking for is this:  <power pumped into the primary coil> = <resistive losses in primary coil> + <resistive losses in inner secondary> + <power delivered to load>.  You can define the efficiency as <power delivered to load>/<power pumped into the primary coil>.

You can assume that the power pumped into the primary coil is going to be slightly greater than what goes into the load and the resistive losses in the two coils.  You can speculate about that "missing power" and where it went.  The first place that comes to mind for me is in the hysteresis losses of the core material.   Naturally, as Vortex1 stated everything is frequency dependent.  One can assume the higher the frequency the more unaccountable losses there will be.  Therefore, one suggestion to keep it sane would be to make measurements at 100 Hz and 6 KHz.   Or, if you were hard core (pun intended) you would sweep the frequencies as per what Vortex1 stated.

MileHigh

tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5698 on: October 17, 2015, 08:40:29 PM »
Brad:


MileHigh

Quote
You are back to the same issue of using a non-linear load and you are trying to make power measurements.

Ruddy hell MH-just hold ya horses-->1 test at a time.

Quote
Your measurements are no good even though you were making true RMS measurements.  Can your DSO multiply two waveforms together?  If yes, the only way to measure power in the setup you show in your diagram is to put the DSO on the input voltage and current and do the multiplication, and then put the DSO on the output voltage and current and do the multiplication.

The measurements are good-as you will see soon enough.
My scope dose have a math function,and will display the math trace,but i cannot figure out how to get it to display the value of that trace. There have been a couple of others here that were going to see if they could work it out,but it never happened.

Quote
If you get rid of the FWBR and the LED then all of these problems go away and you can make the measurements with your multimeters.

Already done,and the video is uploading now. But i still get the feeling that even this will not be good enough,so i will be sending the link to ION and Poynt first to see if they can see if and where i made any mistakes.

Quote
Here is my suggestion:  Even if there is very low impedance on the input it's not going to hurt your function generator.  You can make R1 a standard 1 ohm or 0.5 ohm current sensing resistor.  Then you define your input power as the power that is pumped into the promary coil only.  i.e.; you ignore the power dissipated in the R1 resistor.   Then try different load resistors and frequencies, whatever you want, on the inner secondary.

I used 10 ohm resistors for the CVR. It dose not matter if power is being dissipated by the resistors,as it's still dissipated power,and i was careful when i carried out the calculation's-i think?.

Quote
If you want to be a keener, you will know the RMS currents in the primary and the inner secondary.  Therefore you can easily calculate the power dissipated in the primary coil and inner secondary coil.

What you are looking for is this:  <power pumped into the primary coil> = <resistive losses in primary coil> + <resistive losses in inner secondary> + <power delivered to load>.  You can define the efficiency as <power delivered to load>/<power pumped into the primary coil>.

I calculated only the P/in to the primary,and P/out across the 3 resistors(in my next video). I have not accounted for dissipated power in either coil as yet,that will just be the cream on the top.

Quote
You can assume that the power pumped into the primary coil is going to be slightly greater than what goes into the load and the resistive losses in the two coils.

I assume nothing,and we will see what you assume if and when you see my next video.
Once Poynt and Ion(vortex) have viewed it,and if they find i made a cockup some where.i will post that here. I will still post the video,so as you to can see my mistake-if i have made one.

Quote
You can speculate about that "missing power" and where it went.  The first place that comes to mind for me is in the hysteresis losses of the core material.   Naturally, as Vortex1 stated everything is frequency dependent.

I have tried frequencies between 1 and 30 KHz,and see no change in the outcome with various types of loads.

 
Quote
One can assume the higher the frequency the more unaccountable losses there will be.  Therefore, one suggestion to keep it sane would be to make measurements at 100 Hz and 6 KHz.   Or, if you were hard core (pun intended) you would sweep the frequencies as per what Vortex1 stated.

Below 800Hz,this transformers efficiency drop's right off. I have been running test between 3KHz to 30KHz at 250Hz step's,and the performance remains much the same throughout that band range.

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5699 on: October 17, 2015, 10:07:07 PM »
The measurements are good-as you will see soon enough.

Really?

You have 1.441 V RMS across the primary x 6.4 mA RMS current through the primary = 9.2 mW.

The problem is that the current is not linear with the voltage.  The current increases faster than the voltage rises rendering your calculation wrong and the measurement bad.  The power is actually higher than you are calculating.  The same thing applies to your power measurement across the FWBR + LED.  I mentioned this issue just the other day and Vortex1 echoed what I said.

Note in your diagram you also have a problem on your power out calculation.  You have the power in as being the power that is going into the primary coil which is fine.  But then you are including the power dissipated across R1 as part of the power out which is wrong.  If anything, the power dissipated across R1 can either be ignored by choice to take it out of the picture, or you can include it as part of the input power which is supplied by the function generator.