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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 3501134 times)

gyulasun

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5520 on: October 06, 2015, 03:23:20 PM »
Current dose flow through a capacitor in the form of displacement current.
See last comment of mine above.

Hi Brad,

I respect your opinion. 

Please go through this text carefully when you have a few minutes:

http://www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/z014.htm

Gyula

tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5521 on: October 06, 2015, 03:42:25 PM »
Hi Brad,

I respect your opinion. 

Please go through this text carefully when you have a few minutes:

http://www.electromagnetism.demon.co.uk/z014.htm

Gyula

i will do for sure Gyula.

Would you have 15 minutes to watch a video from a guy that knows his stuff?

Current flow through a capacitor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppWBwZS4e7A

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5522 on: October 06, 2015, 04:11:02 PM »
I think that it is arguable that the changing electric field between the capacitor plates could also be considered to be a manifestation of the "displacement current."  The changing electric field produces a magnetic field that is analogous to the magnetic field around a current-carrying wire.  The changing electric field is not current flow, but it produces a magnetic field which is the same as the "signature" of current flow through a wire.

In practical reality, these kinds of topics don't amount to a hill of beans and there is no need to worry about them.  There is no "mysterious displacement current" that is "not discussed by 'conventional' electronics experts."  Just like there is no "cold electricity" or "mysterious reactive power" that is somehow "another" kind of power.  These are all false notions that cause unnecessary fuss and muss.

Jeg

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5523 on: October 06, 2015, 04:25:43 PM »
i will do for sure Gyula.

Would you have 15 minutes to watch a video from a guy that knows his stuff?

Current flow through a capacitor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppWBwZS4e7A

Hi Tinman
Is that displacement current quicker than electric current? Or is it considered by physics as of the same velocity?

MileHigh

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5524 on: October 06, 2015, 04:35:02 PM »
It just occurred to me that there is another interesting angle on all of this when you look at what is happening at the atomic level for a dielectric in a capacitor.

The atoms get stressed by the electric field between the capacitor plates.  It's the mechanical stressing of atoms that give rise to the measurable permittivity of the dielectric material.  So you have say positive charge on the top plate and negative charge on the bottom plate.  The negative electron cloud of the atom is attracted upwards to the positive plate and displaces slightly.  The positive nucleus of the atom is attracted downwards to the negative plate and displaces slightly.  You end up with stressed atoms that are slightly "bent out of shape" that are effectively little units that are storing energy like little compressed springs.  They all generate a net electric field that is opposite to the applied electric field from the capacitor plates.

So, in the dielectric, you have negative charges moving slightly upwards and positive charges moving slightly downwards.  Both components represent conventional current flow in the downwards direction.  So, in a sense, AC current is "flowing" through the dielectric because of the displacing electron clouds and nuclei.

minnie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5525 on: October 06, 2015, 06:12:16 PM »



  When we look at capacitors could we say it's necessary to put in a little
bit of "work" to get anything to happen?
              John.

tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5526 on: October 06, 2015, 06:37:07 PM »
Poynt-or anyone.

I have been giving this some more thought,and i think that an electrical/electron current dose flow through a capacitor. But first some questions.

In regards to an electrolytic DC capacitor.

1-Dose an electrical/electron current flow !through! a capacitor?
2-Is an electrical/electron current required to charge up a capacitor?,or is there any other way to charge up a capacitor.

Thanks
Brad

gyulasun

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5527 on: October 06, 2015, 06:44:56 PM »
i will do for sure Gyula.

Would you have 15 minutes to watch a video from a guy that knows his stuff?

Current flow through a capacitor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppWBwZS4e7A

Hi Brad,

Thanks for the link, I have watched Dave's video. For practical purposes in everyday "tinkerings" his views are perfectly acceptable I think.

I know about the term displacement current of course but it is not electron current. The current he measured at the end of the video was the charge-up electron current to the capacitor.

In the comment section under the video there is a link to a paper "Measuring Maxwell's displacement current inside a capacitor".  http://personal.rhul.ac.uk/uhap/027/PH2420/PH2420_files/displacement.pdf 
It turns out that the maximum value of the B field is half a microgauss in a "handsized capacitor charged up to 1 kV and with plates separated by a centimeter",  and they claimed to measure this with a 5% accuracy.
This is surely fine but they did not point out how this B field result may correspond to the value of the normal AC current which was used for the measurements (1250 Hz audio frequency was used with 240 Vrms amplitude). So I miss the comparison between the so called displacement and the 'normal' AC input current to the capacitor.

The reason I gave the link to Ivor Catt's article(s) was to indicate this is a complex subject and requires a vast amount of knowledge to "see through".

For the time being I stay with my earlier post where I wrote that charging and discharging currents flow in and out of a capacitor (in the AC case at rate of the AC frequency) and these currents cannot 'flow' through the capacitor. Electromagnetic energy is surely stored between the plates of a capacitor (mainly in the dielectric material) and if in this EM field a so called dielectric current is present then it must be a totally different current than what 'flows' in a normal conductor.
IF this is true, then you are correct to say that 'dielectric current' flows through a capacitor till advance in science finds it otherwise.

Gyula

Jeg

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5528 on: October 06, 2015, 07:06:02 PM »
Displacement current or dielectric current looks like it has the same behavior characteristics as the so called Tesla's radiant, which is not electric current but can also charge a capacitor.

poynt99

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5529 on: October 06, 2015, 08:31:51 PM »
Poynt-or anyone.

I have been giving this some more thought,and i think that an electrical/electron current dose flow through a capacitor. But first some questions.

In regards to an electrolytic DC capacitor.

1-Dose an electrical/electron current flow !through! a capacitor?
No.

Quote
2-Is an electrical/electron current required to charge up a capacitor?,or is there any other way to charge up a capacitor.
Electron current is present in the conductors and ends at the capacitor plates. When the plates are polarized, there is an excess (buildup) of electrons on one side, and a shortage (void) of electrons at the other side.

MagnaProp

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5530 on: October 06, 2015, 08:45:53 PM »
@MagnaProp - I have been reading, just waiting to see what the results are with the current topic...

...A Diode on the Secondary Coil will allow Current to Flow in one direction only. Again I am guessing you know...
Thanks for the explanation. I think we are on the same page now. These images are what I think is going on with the diode as you and tinman explained. Image 1 has power from a battery applied. Image 2 has the battery power removed. If the images are wrong just let me know and I'll find a nice shady rock to hide under.

I still believe in Ed's version of electrons but I think modern science at least has the current flow direction of these magno-electric particles correct, so I'll refer to them as just electrons.

Rotary version ready for testing

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seVtuwtvciA

Stay tuned for tests

Luc
Looks good  8)

I forget what your results were when a diode was on the primary and secondary. Did your primary current go down or stay the same? Since you got more force with the diodes, your primary current should be able to go down a little and still let you achieve the same force you had without the diodes.

gyulasun

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5531 on: October 06, 2015, 11:17:16 PM »
Hi MagnaProp,

I have drawn you another explanation as a compliment and addition to what you have received so far (and not because you are wrong above... :) )

In the upper drawing input voltage is switched onto the coil, current starts in the coil, diode is biased in the reverse direction so the diode is an open circuit.  I used conventional current flow direction from + to - .

Then you remove input voltage i.e. interrupt coil current, see the lower drawing.  The input current has built up a certain magnetic field already in the coil,  so flux stops increasing due to lack of input emf and starts decreasing i.e. it collapses.
This decrease is what changes the induced voltage polarity across the coil versus that of the input voltage, (see cases in induction law), and the coil tries to fight against any current change and tries to maintain its own current in the same direction it was during the input emf. The same current direction also means that the magnetic poles of the coil do not flip.
Of course the coil current goes through via the diode in this process because the induced voltage forward biases it till the field diminishes to zero.

Gyula

EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5532 on: October 06, 2015, 11:33:32 PM »
...

@MagnaProp - I have been reading, just waiting to see what the results are with the current topic...

If I can say, a Coil, Inductor or Solenoid will have a charge constant, meaning time is taken for the Magnetic Field to build to its maximum value for a given Input Voltage. This can be Calculated and also seen on the scope through a Current Sensing Resistor (CSR) or other Current Probe...

This I am guessing you already know.

A Diode on the Secondary Coil will allow Current to Flow in one direction only. Again I am guessing you know.

If the DC Input is switched on... the Field Builds... then Lenz's Law will apply one direction but not the other as to how the direction the Diode is connected on the Secondary...

So, lets suppose we have no Lenz's Effects on the Input, the Diode is connected the correct way, then the Field can build to its maximum Value. Now the Input is switched off.

What will the Field do?

Collapse...

So now our Primary is no longer connected to a Current Source, effectively its open Circuit...

The Diode will now conduct and Current can flow in the Secondary as soon as the Field is collapsing because the polarity has changed.

No Lenz's Law effects reflected back on the Primary!

Interestingly, the Magnetic Field changes its Location in Space, Current is flowing in the Secondary Coil and this constitutes its own Magnetic Field.

Importantly, the Magnetic Field in the Secondary is now in the Same Direction as the Primary Magnetic Field was... Why you might ask? Well apply the Right Hand Rule, Current flow will follow the Right Hand Rule. Remembering that the Polarity of the Coil has Flipped!

So, Tinman was right.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Thanks for the explanation. I think we are on the same page now. These images are what I think is going on with the diode as you and tinman explained. Image 1 has power from a battery applied. Image 2 has the battery power removed. If the images are wrong just let me know and I'll find a nice shady rock to hide under.

I still believe in Ed's version of electrons but I think modern science at least has the current flow direction of these magno-electric particles correct, so I'll refer to them as just electrons.
Looks good  8)

I forget what your results were when a diode was on the primary and secondary. Did your primary current go down or stay the same? Since you got more force with the diodes, your primary current should be able to go down a little and still let you achieve the same force you had without the diodes.

@MagnaProp,

I think your Pics are right... No need for any rocks, lets all work on this together!

Notice the Polarity's, there is an Attraction of the Fields via a small time delay.

The way I like to visualize this is shown in the picture below:

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Magluvin

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5533 on: October 07, 2015, 12:27:46 AM »
Yes, absolutely.

Let's take that thought to the extreme then; what if you have a bifilar-wound cylindrical coil, and you use one pair as your primary, and one pair as your loaded secondary, and you energize the primary. Will there be induction from the primary to the secondary?

Will it be the E field generated by the primary that induces an emf in the secondary? Yes.

If you remove the core in our original example and leave the two coils in their original positions, how much emf will be induced in the secondary? Why?

"Let's take that thought to the extreme then; what if you have a bifilar-wound cylindrical coil, and you use one pair as your primary, and one pair as your loaded secondary, and you energize the primary. Will there be induction from the primary to the secondary?"

Yes


"Will it be the E field generated by the primary that induces an emf in the secondary? Yes."

So the magnetic flux of the primary cutting the sec has nothing to do with the sec being induced??



"If you remove the core in our original example and leave the two coils in their original positions, how much emf will be induced in the secondary? Why?"


Well by the looks of it the distance from coil to coil seems far. Are you saying there would be no currents induced in the sec? What if they were closer? Any?  Next to each other? Any?  We could say the same if the coils were inline and changed the distance accordingly?


In the pic of Brads experiment with the large diameter secondary, that if the diameter of that coil were say 5 feet.  Is it the whole coil being induced equally around, or is it mostly the part of the coil that is close to the core, or even just the part that is in the core inner diameter?


Mags



poynt99

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #5534 on: October 07, 2015, 01:39:06 AM »
So the magnetic flux of the primary cutting the sec has nothing to do with the sec being induced??
That is correct.

Quote
Well by the looks of it the distance from coil to coil seems far. Are you saying there would be no currents induced in the sec?
They would be miniscule, perhaps not present at all.

Quote
What if they were closer? Any?  Next to each other? Any?
Two air-core coils sitting side-by-side will still have miniscule induction from one to the other.

Quote
We could say the same if the coils were inline and changed the distance accordingly?
The two coils in line improves the coupling a bit, especially if they are end to end. As you separate them however, the coupling would decrease quickly.

Quote
In the pic of Brads experiment with the large diameter secondary, that if the diameter of that coil were say 5 feet. Is it the whole coil being induced equally around, or is it mostly the part of the coil that is close to the core, or even just the part that is in the core inner diameter?

Mags
That is quite an extreme example of course. I believe that as long as the secondary diameter is at max up to that of the primary (or perhaps double), the induced emf will be the same as if the diameter was much smaller. As you increase the diameter of the secondary relative to that of the primary, the induced emf will decrease (eventually).

In theory, the E field extends out an infinite distance, but its intensity decreases with distance from the center. However, as your "collector" would also be larger, in theory the induced emf should be equal. Remember the induced emf is equal to the line integral of the circumferential E field. So even though the E field intensity decreases with distance, the circumference also increases, so the line integral is the same.

I have not tried a 5 foot secondary with a 6" primary. It would be an interesting experiment. ;)