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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 1355621 times)

Offline woopy

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7800 on: February 14, 2017, 07:35:56 PM »
Hi itsu

Thank's very much for your input

I have checked the current trace with a CSR  (1 ohm and also 0.1 ohm) on both side input and output. The current trace is a nice sine wave as per the voltage BUT

The RMS current is much higher on both side too. So the input is about 65 mv =ma and no more 40 ma as per my clamp meter, and the output current is about 433 mv= ma and no more 365 mA

So the efficiency drop to about 80 % , so nothing to see here, and i wonder why  the true RMS clamp meter ( a very expensive one) shows so wrong measurement because i doubt that this is the scope which is wrong. I checked the clamp meter  battery and it is OK.

I have rechecked with a digital ampmeter (no clamp) and it also shows as the scope higher mA draw.

Youp another time big problems with those  measurements, and i wonder if Wistiti has the same issue with his clamp meter ??

On youtube  Gotuluc says that he will  also replicate the Wistiti's experiment, i will wait for his results and eventually  i will suppress my video because missleading.

I will check if i made a mistake with the bucking coils (wrong winding eventually ?)

OK anyway thank's for sharing your great experience in the measurement.

Laurent


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7800 on: February 14, 2017, 07:35:56 PM »

Offline citfta

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7801 on: February 14, 2017, 08:24:08 PM »
I used clamp meters for many years in industry.  They are not good for accuracy because of the loose coupling between the wire and the clamp.  They are only good for a close approximation which is good enough if you want to know if a motor is being seriously overloaded or a circuit is not drawing any current when it should be.  For the most accurate use of a clamp meter the wire needs to be right in the center of the  clamp and the clamp needs to be very close to perpendicular to the wire.  Laying the clamp meter down so the wire is close to parallel to the clamp will throw off the accuracy.  They certainly have their place in industry but are not good for accurate circuit analysis.

Carroll

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7802 on: February 14, 2017, 08:42:33 PM »
Hi Chris and all

As i had a toroidal transformer at disposal, i decided to replicate Wistiti's experiment

Good and encouraging results so far. I hope there is no mistake in the measurement, but i try to be very carefull when we get such efficiency. Of course feel free to correct me if you notice some error.

https://youtu.be/Z3RQkQEv59k

Will reread this thread to better understand what is going on here. But not so much time at the present.

Hope this helps

Thank's to all of you for your work

Laurent


Edit: please read itsu's comment and my answer (next 2 posts). It is very likely that the results on the video is erroneous due to a faulty clamp meter.



Hey Woopy - Nice Replication! Thank you for sharing!

About the re-reading the thread, its a massive mess of posts, we might be better to go through and start with questions and so on from here.

It is very likely that Itsu's device is saturated, thus the non sinusoidal wave form. Most here know that it takes very little power to saturate a small ferrite toroid. Itsu, it may be worth checking out a very handy page: http://www.cliftonlaboratories.com/type_43_ferrite_b-h_curve.htm this way you can see where your toroid hits saturation.


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org





Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7803 on: February 14, 2017, 09:07:05 PM »
Hi itsu

Thank's very much for your input

I have checked the current trace with a CSR  (1 ohm and also 0.1 ohm) on both side input and output. The current trace is a nice sine wave as per the voltage BUT

The RMS current is much higher on both side too. So the input is about 65 mv =ma and no more 40 ma as per my clamp meter, and the output current is about 433 mv= ma and no more 365 mA

So the efficiency drop to about 80 % , so nothing to see here, and i wonder why  the true RMS clamp meter ( a very expensive one) shows so wrong measurement because i doubt that this is the scope which is wrong. I checked the clamp meter  battery and it is OK.

I have rechecked with a digital ampmeter (no clamp) and it also shows as the scope higher mA draw.

Youp another time big problems with those  measurements, and i wonder if Wistiti has the same issue with his clamp meter ??

On youtube  Gotuluc says that he will  also replicate the Wistiti's experiment, i will wait for his results and eventually  i will suppress my video because missleading.

I will check if i made a mistake with the bucking coils (wrong winding eventually ?)

OK anyway thank's for sharing your great experience in the measurement.

Laurent



Woopy - don't give up, you're very close, just need to over come the Toroid Losses.

Input:
   V: 27.7 VAC
   I: 0.65 A


Output:
   V: 3.78 VAC
   I: 0.433 A


Your POC Toroid has the following estimated values:

   Resistance: 42.6153846153846 in Ohms. (Ω)
   Phase Angle: 88.6557608932097 degrees. (Φ)
   Inductive Reactance XL: 42.604 in Ohms. (Ω)
   Capacitive Reactance XC: 42.6036566066035 in Ohms. (Ω)
   Impedance (Z): 0.999724794017781+j42.604 in Ohms. (Ω)
   Inductance (L): 0.135611650854612 Henries. (H)
   Real Resistance: 0.999724794017781 in Ohms. (Ω)
   LC Network Capacitance: 7.47142174022813E-10 in Farads. (F)

If my Math is correct, then the 88.65 Degrees Phase Shift (theta) will put your input Power at: P = V x I x Cos(88.65) = 0.424194199 Watts and your Output Power at P = V x I = 3.78 x 0.433 =  1.63674 Watts Maybe you could verify the Phase Angle?

There is a few small things that can be done to get this working better. This will get your efficiency very much higher. Your Turns ratio needs to be increased. Currently you have 27.7 : 3.78 which is approximately 9:1 Turns Ratio - You want to aim for around 3-5:1 - So this means you need about 3 times more turns on your Partnered Output Coils, getting the voltage on the output to about 9 Volts.

Why are turns important? Because the turns with Current I is the Magnetic Field! B = μNL Where μ is the Relative Permeability, N is Turns and L is the Inductance. The Magnetic Field is what is doing the work. When each Magnetic Field is sufficient to start the Charge Separation Process, then more Charges can be separated. If the Magnetic Field is not sufficient, we just see a standard Transformer with standard Efficiency: 80 - 95%


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


Online itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7804 on: February 14, 2017, 09:23:42 PM »

Woopy, 

good to see you found the problem, allthough i would have liked it to be not so.

Carroll is right, those clamp meters are not accurate, i tried mine on my setup, but could not get any reading, probably because of the low (9mA rms) current that was flowing.



Chris,

it does look like the toroid (steel) was saturated, but it puzzles me how as i only had a 6V/2W bulb as load (its a 15VA steel toroid transformer).
I still think it is some kind of impedance mismatch between the 2 (steel) toroid transformers, but i am not sure now.

I will check out your referenced page to see if i can check my toroid for saturation.



Itsu



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7804 on: February 14, 2017, 09:23:42 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7805 on: February 14, 2017, 09:34:23 PM »
Woopy, 

good to see you found the problem, allthough i would have liked it to be not so.

Carroll is right, those clamp meters are not accurate, i tried mine on my setup, but could not get any reading, probably because of the low (9mA rms) current that was flowing.



Chris,

it does look like the toroid (steel) was saturated, but it puzzles me how as i only had a 6V/2W bulb as load (its a 15VA steel toroid transformer).
I still think it is some kind of impedance mismatch between the 2 (steel) toroid transformers, but i am not sure now.

I will check out your referenced page to see if i can check my toroid for saturation.



Itsu



Hey Itsu - Good to know. I can only make assumptions on my end, I try to help where I can. I don't know everything and am wrong sometimes.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Offline partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7806 on: February 14, 2017, 09:51:44 PM »
It can be demonstrated by simulation and bench tests that a normally operating transformer constructed of a primary 'A' and connected bucking secondaries 'C' and 'D' will exhibit no output across the bucking secondaries with input to the primary under the following conditions:  The secondaries are identical in all their parameters ie turns, dcr, wire size, height and width, and have identical coupling factors and capacitances to the primary.

If output is obtained from two bucking secondaries on a transformer with the primary driven, then one or more of the above parameters is no longer equal and balanced.  The higher the unbalance between parameters, the higher the output. 

Scramble winding secondaries over already somewhat scramble wound primaries on a toroid will produce unbalanced parameters in the bucking secondaries and therefore output.  Winding a pair of bifilar secondaries over a layer wound bobbin style core or precisely placed windings on a toroid will result in reasonably well balanced buck windings that will produce little to no output.

pm

     

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7806 on: February 14, 2017, 09:51:44 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7807 on: February 14, 2017, 10:02:21 PM »

I used clamp meters for many years in industry.  They are not good for accuracy because of the loose coupling between the wire and the clamp.  They are only good for a close approximation which is good enough if you want to know if a motor is being seriously overloaded or a circuit is not drawing any current when it should be.  For the most accurate use of a clamp meter the wire needs to be right in the center of the  clamp and the clamp needs to be very close to perpendicular to the wire.  Laying the clamp meter down so the wire is close to parallel to the clamp will throw off the accuracy.  They certainly have their place in industry but are not good for accurate circuit analysis.

Carroll




Carroll is right, Clamp Meters have a lot of problems. Stray Magnetic Fields and so on... Measuring low power they are not accurate. Not as accurate as we need, but this is all some have and is as you say, a good approximation.





EDIT-i forgot to mention--to achieve these results,i had to use a square wave,and a frequency of 12.2KHz.

Still looking for the error,but here are the results so far-measured with both DMMs and scope using a CVR.
The scope and DMMs had only a 2% difference with value's,so an average was taken from the both results.All DMMs were swapped around,and came within +/- 1%
Tried using the clamp on meter,but currents are to small to register.

P/in-6.8vRMS @ 19mA=129.2mW
P/out 1-1.8vRMS @ 41mA=73.8mW
P/out 2-1.83vRMS @ 42mA=76.8mW

So seems to be running at 116% efficiency. :o




Brad's measurements were made on the scope, as others have and we are still getting good results! So a Clamp meter, although they have higher inaccuracys, are still showing us some degree of direction.


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7808 on: February 14, 2017, 10:26:09 PM »

It can be demonstrated by simulation and bench tests that a normally operating transformer constructed of a primary 'A' and connected bucking secondaries 'C' and 'D' will exhibit no output across the bucking secondaries with input to the primary under the following conditions:  The secondaries are identical in all their parameters ie turns, dcr, wire size, height and width, and have identical coupling factors and capacitances to the primary.

If output is obtained from two bucking secondaries on a transformer with the primary driven, then one or more of the above parameters is no longer equal and balanced.  The higher the unbalance between parameters, the higher the output. 

Scramble winding secondaries over already somewhat scramble wound primaries on a toroid will produce unbalanced parameters in the bucking secondaries and therefore output.  Winding a pair of bifilar secondaries over a layer wound bobbin style core or precisely placed windings on a toroid will result in reasonably well balanced buck windings that will produce little to no output.

pm

   



Partzman - There are two types of Bucking!

   1: Non-Inductive - No Output - Conventional
   2: Inductive - Output - MrPreva Experiment Style - Which is an Auto Transformer, of sorts, with an additional Winding.

I have tried to explain this for nearly two years now, seems this is very hard to grasp?

Simply Put, One needs an Output Voltage, The current in the Partnered Output Coils must Oppose, this is the Bucking, Current and Magnetic Fields Buck... Both types of Bucking can produce Excess Power, but Type 1 is very much harder than Type 2.


So I only partly agree with your post.

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Online gotoluc

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7809 on: February 15, 2017, 12:07:48 AM »
Here are the results of my test


Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so6HK9wLU94


Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7809 on: February 15, 2017, 12:07:48 AM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7810 on: February 15, 2017, 12:46:46 AM »




We are heading down the same path as last time!

Very few are paying attention to detail, to the most important things. Much of which I have repeated on several occasions on this and the last few pages.

What do the Currents in the Partnered Output Coils have to do?

What are the turns Ratios suggested? For some 2+ odd years now!

People just jump in boots and all and expect to Fluke it first time? Without paying any attention!

I have said it before, many times: Start with the replication of the MrPreva Experiment, learn all you can learn from that, pay very special attention to the Currents in the Coils, which in turn is the Magnetic Field if you apply the Right Hand Grip Rule!!!

Start simple, start very simple, low cost, "Little Steps for Little Feet"!!!

When, and only when you realise, and see how the Currents Oppose, will you be able to replicate on a larger scale, and see HOW Electrical Energy is "Generated"!!! Understand why this quote is so important!!! If you don't, then you cant!!!

Quote

In the specific case of positive charges moving to the right and negative charges to the left, the effect of both actions is positive charge moving to the right. Current to the right is: I = da+ / dt + da- / dt. Negative electrons flowing to the left contribute to the current flowing to the right.


Once this is achieved, you will see your phase angle on the Input will be pushed right back, your input will drop right down, you will have something of value.

Quote from: Albert Einstein

Any fool can know. The point is to understand.




Put simply, if the Fields in the Partnered Output Coils do not Buck or Oppose, you have nothing but a Transformer and as a result, you should not expect to see anything but Transformer results!!!


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Offline Dog-One

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7811 on: February 15, 2017, 01:32:01 AM »
Put simply, if the Fields in the Partnered Output Coils do not Buck or Oppose, you have nothing but a Transformer and as a result, you should not expect to see anything but Transformer results!!!


The real mystery begins when you have the two secondary windings and you connect them together, like you would attempting to smoke a pair of batteries by shorting them against each other.  Only on the POC, instead of shorting and the input power going way up as one would expect, some kind of synergy forms.  That should keep you up at night because it's not normal transformer action.


Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7812 on: February 15, 2017, 01:47:06 AM »

The real mystery begins when you have the two secondary windings and you connect them together, like you would attempting to smoke a pair of batteries by shorting them against each other.  Only on the POC, instead of shorting and the input power going way up as one would expect, some kind of synergy forms.  That should keep you up at night because it's not normal transformer action.



Dog-One - Beautifully put!!!

There is a kind of Magnetic Symmetry between the POC. This SHOULD keep people up at night, studying why this is so! This fact alone proves several things, and some here will already know, its just a phasing between the two coils, and this is true, but its also more!

GotoLuc has the Winding Direction Correct! For the Configuration he has chosen! Also the Wiring Is Correct! He has paid attention there. And so he should, I spent nearly a year (For Free) trying to help him and Tesla Energy Solutions, GotoLuc's Employer along with Chet K, with their experiments. TES are doing some good work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXP2v5ZkUw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K69qAc3I_7c

Here in lies the same problems, small things that are over looked, and no attention paid to, as Luc says in the video: "that I have had and was going to replicate Wistiti's bucking coil test that he had done some many months back..." But alas, the entire concept of this thread has been missed! Bucking, or very much more importantly Opposing Magnetic Fields of the Partnered Output Coils!

@Gotoluc - I ask you to think why your Magnetic Fields are not opposing? Please do the MrPreva Experiment as suggested and explain why your Fields are not opposing?


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Offline verpies

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7813 on: February 15, 2017, 08:15:37 AM »
please be aware that the input current could be NO sine wave anymore and therefor the sine wave crest factor is not the 1.414
Yes indeed and without a perfect sine wave, the cos(phi) IV phase angle factor is meaningless, too.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tinman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7814 on: February 15, 2017, 02:32:41 PM »
It can be demonstrated by simulation and bench tests that a normally operating transformer constructed of a primary 'A' and connected bucking secondaries 'C' and 'D' will exhibit no output across the bucking secondaries with input to the primary under the following conditions:  The secondaries are identical in all their parameters ie turns, dcr, wire size, height and width, and have identical coupling factors and capacitances to the primary.

If output is obtained from two bucking secondaries on a transformer with the primary driven, then one or more of the above parameters is no longer equal and balanced.  The higher the unbalance between parameters, the higher the output. 

Scramble winding secondaries over already somewhat scramble wound primaries on a toroid will produce unbalanced parameters in the bucking secondaries and therefore output.  Winding a pair of bifilar secondaries over a layer wound bobbin style core or precisely placed windings on a toroid will result in reasonably well balanced buck windings that will produce little to no output.

pm

   

I agree PM,and proven via experimentation with my setup.

If we wire the two coils together one way ,we get an output,-but if wired together in the other way,we get no output at all-well in my case anyway,as both secondaries have the exact same amount of turns.
BUT-why no short when wired together to give no output(in series) ?.

I get the same result as Luc showed-in that the same output is had with using just one secondary--no difference in output is seen by joining the 2nd secondary to the first.

But again-why no short when the two secondaries are hooked in series?
If we hook batteries in series on them self,we get a big short-and the same for all other transformers that have two secondaries hooked in series.
There is also no increase in P/in,when the two secondaries are hooked in series  :o


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7814 on: February 15, 2017, 02:32:41 PM »

 

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