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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy  (Read 1835302 times)

Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7800 on: February 18, 2017, 05:52:01 AM »



The Figures I used were from Itsu's Posted Scope Shot. I downloaded Itsu's Video in 720P and have better Figures. See attached:

Using the figures, when Itsu went into resonance (approx. 8.6KHz) we get a Power Factor (L2) of: -0.9884939

Ok, now everyone needs to know:
   1: LC Resonance, Voltage and Current is 90 Degrees out of Phase, in Itsu's experiment and mine, we see nearly Zero
   2: The Power Factor on L2 is not a normal thing, we see it only when Power is being "Generated"! As I have stated millions of times.
   3: We have two Currents 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, thus, applying the Right Hand Grip Rule, we have two Magnetic Field 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, or Opposing!!!

I don't want to bore you with more information, but really this is about as NOT Normal as you would normally see!!! A Negative Power Factor is SUPER important! It is the "Generation" of Electrical Energy!!! Only in a Generator, or in a Transformer would we see this. In saying this, Voltage and Current would very unlikely be 180 Degrees out of Phase on the same branch!!! By adding an Asymmetric component, another Coil do we get the opportunity to bring about something special!

Common Verpies, Cifta and all you other super smart guys, how about we hear from you and see what your thoughts are...


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7800 on: February 18, 2017, 05:52:01 AM »

Offline itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7801 on: February 18, 2017, 11:01:51 AM »
Nice video, Itsu,


would you do me a favour?
hooking a big cap in parallel with one of the bucking coils and do the same test once more?


I'd be really curious about the outcome.


Hi Dieter,

i can do that, however, this "big cap in parallel with one of the bucking coils" will be parallel also to the other coil and the 1uF cap as
we are dealing with a parallel LC circuit.

It will probably only further decrease the resonance frequency of this parallel circuit (presently around 7KHz).

We will see.


Itsu

Offline seychelles

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7802 on: February 18, 2017, 11:11:12 AM »
MY FEW BUCKS WORTH. YOU GUYS HAVE NOT TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT THAT THE FIELD EMITTING
FROM THE CORE OUTWARDS IS OF IMPORTANCE . HENCE THE WAY THE WINDING IS DONE IS
PARAMOUNT TO GREATER OUTPUT..

Offline itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7803 on: February 18, 2017, 11:31:14 AM »
Chris,

this simple little circuit as you call it, is not that simple to dissect as it contains much interacting signals / properties.
Sometimes i think it kind of "flips over" as i cannot get the 180° out of phase signals across the 1 Ohm resistors (they are in phase suddenly).
I will try to capture that situation.


Anyway, some confusion here:

 
Quote
1: When the Peak to Peak Voltage across the Capacitor is at maximum the Circuit is in resonance.
2: The Voltage and Current on Coil, LOne will be close to in phase, ± a few degrees.
3: The Voltage and Current on the second Coil, LTwo will be 180 Degrees out of phase, ± a few degrees.


With "LOne" you mean the 11 turn coil?
With "second Coil, LTwo" you mean the 7 turn coil?
These points i agree with (remind you that the current probe (green) induces some phase delay), but in your 2e post you say:

 
Quote
Ok, now everyone needs to know:
   1: LC Resonance, Voltage and Current is 90 Degrees out of Phase, in Itsu's experiment and mine, we see nearly Zero
   2: The Power Factor on L2 is not a normal thing, we see it only when Power is being "Generated"! As I have stated millions of times.
   3: We have two Currents 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, thus, applying the Right Hand Grip Rule, we have two Magnetic Field 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, or Opposing!!!


that 1st point is opposite as what you mention above, in a parallel circuit in LC resonance, the voltage and current are (should be) in phase.
And that is what we see happening allthough not exactly 0°, but i blame that on the current probes delay factor and the unusual influence of the bucking coil.


Your question on Negative Power Factor i have to study on as i don't know, perhaps some more knowledgeable people can step in here.

I will play around some more with this circuit.

Itsu

Offline partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7804 on: February 18, 2017, 04:20:36 PM »


The Figures I used were from Itsu's Posted Scope Shot. I downloaded Itsu's Video in 720P and have better Figures. See attached:

Using the figures, when Itsu went into resonance (approx. 8.6KHz) we get a Power Factor (L2) of: -0.9884939

Ok, now everyone needs to know:
   1: LC Resonance, Voltage and Current is 90 Degrees out of Phase, in Itsu's experiment and mine, we see nearly Zero
   2: The Power Factor on L2 is not a normal thing, we see it only when Power is being "Generated"! As I have stated millions of times.
   3: We have two Currents 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, thus, applying the Right Hand Grip Rule, we have two Magnetic Field 180 Degrees Out Of Phase, or Opposing!!!

I don't want to bore you with more information, but really this is about as NOT Normal as you would normally see!!! A Negative Power Factor is SUPER important! It is the "Generation" of Electrical Energy!!! Only in a Generator, or in a Transformer would we see this. In saying this, Voltage and Current would very unlikely be 180 Degrees out of Phase on the same branch!!! By adding an Asymmetric component, another Coil do we get the opportunity to bring about something special!

Common Verpies, Cifta and all you other super smart guys, how about we hear from you and see what your thoughts are...


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Chris,

Analyzing the input and output power levels of Itsu's scope shot in your post is very interesting.  For example, the input voltage is ~1.555v rms and the input current measured as shown is 5.84ma rms with a phase angle of ~20 degrees so, the input power is 1.555 x 5.84e-3 x cosine(20) = 8.53mw.

Pout1 is 412mv rms across 1 ohm for (.412^2)/1 = 170mw and Pout2 is 205mv rms across 1 ohm for (.205^2)/1 = 42mw for a total Pout = 212mw.  The COP = .212/.00853 = 24.85!!!!

Now a question for everyone, is this correct?  If not, why?

pm

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7804 on: February 18, 2017, 04:20:36 PM »
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Offline itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7805 on: February 18, 2017, 05:49:51 PM »

PM,

I will answer that.

i did mention it in the video to not look at the figures, it was the phase relationships i was after.
I should of have mentioned it in the post as well.

The problem is (and i am sure you know this) that the input current value seen on the scope (5.84ma rms) would only be valid with the vertical amp. setting
of the green trace to be 10mA/Div. as it obvious shows on the screenshot.

But... this 10mA/Div. is a fixed setting for a Tek current probe to be used, the real vertical amp setting is determined by the current probe controller.
In this case i am pretty sure the controller was NOT set to the shown (fixed) 10mA/Div., so the 5.84ma rms value needs to be adjusted.
As i did not note this value now (which i normally do) i don't know what it was, but very probably it was higher.


I have redone this setup to find out the real value of the current controller vertical amp setting and it was 200mA/Div.
So the shown 5.84ma rms (@ 10mA/Div.) should be adjusted by a factor 20, meaning 116.8mA RMS.

The input power therefor comes out at 1.555 x 116.8e-3 x cosine(20) = 170.67mw.
This brings us roughly back to unity.


Itsu

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7806 on: February 18, 2017, 06:10:48 PM »
@ Itsu,

Last year I built many variations of bucking coil circuits which I tested for months but did not publicly share. Tests were done with and without resonance.
The more interesting effect was with resonance and at one point I thought I had OU.
However, after much more investigation I found the current probe was not measuring accurate results with circuits in resonance range.
There seems to be a very strong EMF emitting outwards from these circuits which may affect a current probe, which btw was the same one as you used in your last video.
It may not be the case with all but I would recommend you also add CSR probe to compare the two just to be safe.

Kind regards

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7806 on: February 18, 2017, 06:10:48 PM »
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Offline partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7807 on: February 18, 2017, 06:14:39 PM »
PM,

I will answer that.

i did mention it in the video to not look at the figures, it was the phase relationships i was after.
I should of have mentioned it in the post as well.

The problem is (and i am sure you know this) that the input current value seen on the scope (5.84ma rms) would only be valid with the vertical amp. setting
of the green trace to be 10mA/Div. as it obvious shows on the screenshot.

But... this 10mA/Div. is a fixed setting for a Tek current probe to be used, the real vertical amp setting is determined by the current probe controller.
In this case i am pretty sure the controller was NOT set to the shown (fixed) 10mA/Div., so the 5.84ma rms value needs to be adjusted.
As i did not note this value now (which i normally do) i don't know what it was, but very probably it was higher.


I have redone this setup to find out the real value of the current controller vertical amp setting and it was 200mA/Div.
So the shown 5.84ma rms (@ 10mA/Div.) should be adjusted by a factor 20, meaning 116.8mA RMS.

The input power therefor comes out at 1.555 x 116.8e-3 x cosine(20) = 170.67mw.
This brings us roughly back to unity.


Itsu

Itsu,

OK, thanks for your explanation.  My thots on an accurate power input analysis regarding power drawn from the signal generator would be to move the low side or grounded end of the 1ufd resonance cap to the low side of the output resistors but above the current probe.  The probe would now include the current thru the cap and could possibly change the overall results.

Good work!

pm

Offline itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7808 on: February 18, 2017, 07:18:41 PM »
@ Itsu,

Last year I built many variations of bucking coil circuits which I tested for months but did not publicly share. Tests were done with and without resonance.
The more interesting effect was with resonance and at one point I thought I had OU.
However, after much more investigation I found the current probe was not measuring accurate results with circuits in resonance range.
There seems to be a very strong EMF emitting outwards from these circuits which may affect a current probe, which btw was the same one as you used in your last video.
It may not be the case with all but I would recommend you also add CSR probe to compare the two just to be safe.

Kind regards

Luc

Hi Luc,

thanks for this info, you are absolutly right, and i did notice that too.
Normally i compare the current probe with a 0.1 Ohm non inductive CSR if the reading matters like in case of input/output measurments.

There are cases (resonance?) where the values differ much and then i normally use the csr value.

Thanks for mentioning it.

Itsu

Offline itsu

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7809 on: February 18, 2017, 07:21:08 PM »
Itsu,

OK, thanks for your explanation.  My thots on an accurate power input analysis regarding power drawn from the signal generator would be to move the low side or grounded end of the 1ufd resonance cap to the low side of the output resistors but above the current probe.  The probe would now include the current thru the cap and could possibly change the overall results.

Good work!

pm


Ooops,   yes you are right, i now measure current within the parallel circuit, thats not good, i will change that,  thanks.


Itsu

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7809 on: February 18, 2017, 07:21:08 PM »
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Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7810 on: February 18, 2017, 08:57:55 PM »
Chris,

this simple little circuit as you call it, is not that simple to dissect as it contains much interacting signals / properties.
Sometimes i think it kind of "flips over" as i cannot get the 180° out of phase signals across the 1 Ohm resistors (they are in phase suddenly).
I will try to capture that situation.


Anyway, some confusion here:

 

With "LOne" you mean the 11 turn coil?
With "second Coil, LTwo" you mean the 7 turn coil?
These points i agree with (remind you that the current probe (green) induces some phase delay), but in your 2e post you say:

 

that 1st point is opposite as what you mention above, in a parallel circuit in LC resonance, the voltage and current are (should be) in phase.
And that is what we see happening allthough not exactly 0°, but i blame that on the current probes delay factor and the unusual influence of the bucking coil.


Your question on Negative Power Factor i have to study on as i don't know, perhaps some more knowledgeable people can step in here.

I will play around some more with this circuit.

Itsu



Hey Itsu - Yes it is a very simple little circuit that a lot can be learnt from. Yes, odd things happen in this circuit. Its worth remembering, Electromagnetic is Equal and Opposite, however we are getting well over 50% Efficiency - Why?

Sorry for any confusion, I have marked the MrPreva Circuit with L1 and L2 indicating the Coils, or Inductors L and the Number of them.

Yes, on this: "that 1st point is opposite as what you mention above, in a parallel circuit in LC resonance, the voltage and current are (should be) in phase."

I apologise, typically in an RLC or LC Circuit, when the Circuit goes into resonance, the Inductive Reactance (XL) will equal the Capacitive Reactance (XC). This means that neither XL or XC is dominating in the circuit, and the Phase angle will be 90 Degrees for a Resonant Circuit. See the below diagram.

However, in the MrPreva Circuit, we see that XL and XC are nearly Zero!!! Meaning we have no Phase Shift (Nearly) and that the Inductive and Capacitive components of the Input have been removed from the Circuit. This is an interesting but very explainable phenomena, we see exactly this in a transformer when a decent Load is applied!!!

  Look, we all really should spend some time on this: "Your question on Negative Power Factor i have to study on as i don't know, perhaps some more knowledgeable people can step in here."

I am no expert, I have spent a lot of time studying and experimenting on this, and still have a lot to learn.

But, if we ever see a Negative Power Factor, it means you have power coming back out of the Circuit at you, you are "Generating" Electrical Energy and its trying to return to your Source!

Itsu, your replication of the MrPreva Circuit is Excellent, first class!!! Thank You for sharing with everyone! I really hope others find value here as they should!!!

Question: Do you see now why this equation is important: ITotal = da+ / dt + da- / dt?

   Current ITotal = "Negative electrons flowing to the left (da-) contribute to the current flowing to the right (da+)"

There is such beauty in simplicity.

So my over all point is, we see Electromagnetic Induction, between these two Coils, LOne and LTwo, each field Opposes! Each Current Opposes. This is a Symmetrical Device, it is an Auto Transformer of sorts.

Now, all we have to do, it bring in a Third Coil, use it as an Input, and now we have an Asymmetrical System, where the Opposition on the Primary (Lenz's Law) is Counter-Acted by the two forces of the Secondary's.

   Simply: An Addition to Newtons Third Law: Action, Reaction and Counter-Reaction - Thus the Importance of the Number 3, a Non Symmetrical Number!


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7811 on: February 18, 2017, 09:15:13 PM »
Chris,

Analyzing the input and output power levels of Itsu's scope shot in your post is very interesting.  For example, the input voltage is ~1.555v rms and the input current measured as shown is 5.84ma rms with a phase angle of ~20 degrees so, the input power is 1.555 x 5.84e-3 x cosine(20) = 8.53mw.

Pout1 is 412mv rms across 1 ohm for (.412^2)/1 = 170mw and Pout2 is 205mv rms across 1 ohm for (.205^2)/1 = 42mw for a total Pout = 212mw.  The COP = .212/.00853 = 24.85!!!!

Now a question for everyone, is this correct?  If not, why?

pm




I believe Itsu has already answered, but Volt Ampere Reactive vs Real power can be quite different, the Power inside the LC Circuit is being measured, and not the total Input to the Circuit. So the Cap and losses of it are not included as was mentioned, only the Vars in the Semmi Resonant Circuit, taking into account the ±20 Degree Phase Shift, which can be very much higher than the Real Power into the Circuit.


But, again, I am still learning too, so if you disagree, lets discuss why?


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7812 on: February 18, 2017, 09:53:48 PM »

@ Itsu,

Last year I built many variations of bucking coil circuits which I tested for months but did not publicly share. Tests were done with and without resonance.
The more interesting effect was with resonance and at one point I thought I had OU.
However, after much more investigation I found the current probe was not measuring accurate results with circuits in resonance range.
There seems to be a very strong EMF emitting outwards from these circuits which may affect a current probe, which btw was the same one as you used in your last video.
It may not be the case with all but I would recommend you also add CSR probe to compare the two just to be safe.

Kind regards

Luc




@Luc - Measurement Error is easy to make. Even with expensive equipment. In saying this, and as you say, a CSR (Current Sensing Resistor) is a good comparison. Brad used a CSR and was still getting 118% Graham Gunderson 560% without a CSR, but using identical $1500 Current Probes along with very expensive Clarke Hess Watt Meters that do use a CSR arrangement, which verified the expensive Current Probes, so again, a lot more good results are coming forth, and it is mostly through "Understanding" that these results are achieved.


Once an understanding is achieved, the direction one needs move becomes more evident, but without this understanding, no direction is possible. Only guess work.


So, failure will be inevitable for some. Until the right frame of mind is obtained, the right understanding is achieved.


This technology is not to be Monetised, it wont happen for you, I know some here are very greedy and are doing their utmost to take what I am sharing, and make money from it, claiming it as their own. This frame of mind will result in failure.


What was Graham Gunderson asking? 2 Million Dollars?


No one is going to pay for this Technology! People will only want to learn and replicate it.


Too much Greed, Selfishness, I cant get over some people!!!


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


Offline partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7813 on: February 18, 2017, 09:57:44 PM »



I believe Itsu has already answered, but Volt Ampere Reactive vs Real power can be quite different, the Power inside the LC Circuit is being measured, and not the total Input to the Circuit. So the Cap and losses of it are not included as was mentioned, only the Vars in the Semmi Resonant Circuit, taking into account the ±20 Degree Phase Shift, which can be very much higher than the Real Power into the Circuit.


But, again, I am still learning too, so if you disagree, lets discuss why?


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org

Chris,

I'm not able to say if I agree or disagree as I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say in your statement above.  I would say however that if we analyze Itsu's circuit (Preva replication) with the resonant cap current accounted for, the real power developed in the secondaries will be less that the total power drawn from the generator including any negative energy back to the generator.  To confirm this,I will run some bench tests and sims to see what we have.  I have already shown the Preva circuit to be conservative but this was without any resonance of additional phase shifting.

pm   


Offline hyiq

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7814 on: February 18, 2017, 10:16:30 PM »
Chris,

I'm not able to say if I agree or disagree as I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say in your statement above.  I would say however that if we analyze Itsu's circuit (Preva replication) with the resonant cap current accounted for, the real power developed in the secondaries will be less that the total power drawn from the generator including any negative energy back to the generator.  To confirm this,I will run some bench tests and sims to see what we have.  I have already shown the Preva circuit to be conservative but this was without any resonance of additional phase shifting.

pm




The MrPreva Circuit as it is, is Not Over Unity. As I have already stated many times:




In L2, Using Ohms law, and also verifying the Phase angle Correction through a Resistance, being Zero Degrees, mentioned above, we can calculate the Power across the Resistance: Power P = Resistance R * Current I2 = 2.3 Ohms (2.2 + 0.1) * 0.54700816 Amps = 1.28925 Watts, which means that a Voltage V across the Resistance R is only 1.722 Volts, verified on the scope, but on the other side of the Inductor, there is 12,54 Volts present.

In L2, Power across the Resistance: Power P = Resistance R * Current I2 = 2.3 Ohms (2.2 + 0.1) * 0.23164969 Amps = 0.53279 Watts, which means that a Voltage V across the Resistance R is only 1.10699 Volts, verified on the scope, but on the other side of the Inductor, there is 12,54 Volts present.

So, the huge gains seen above, across each branch L1 and L2, are not Gains across the Resistance, the load. What is going on here, why are we seeing this Gain, but not in our Load? If the input is 2.2 Watts, and Loaded Output is 1.28925 Watts + 0.53279 Watts, we only see 82% efficiency across our Resistive Loads.

Why do we see what we do? Why do we have such a large Voltage Drop across the Inductor? Between 10.818 and 11.43301 Volts...

   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


But, instead, I have said "A Lot Can Be Learned" from this Circuit! Why is it NOT Over Unity? Because it is still a Symmetrical System!

Now, when you said: "The COP = .212/.00853 = 24.85!!!!" this figure you are deriving is not correct. It is not the actual Input Power to the Circuit. This is incorrect.

Itsu did not give us the Input Current into the Circuit, only the Circulating Current inside the LC Circuit was given.

We all should already know this, and that's what I was implying in my above statement.


   Chris Sykes
       hyiq.org


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Free Energy
« Reply #7814 on: February 18, 2017, 10:16:30 PM »

 

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