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Author Topic: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?  (Read 37852 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #75 on: December 27, 2014, 01:17:23 AM »
Hi Brad,

Would like to ask on the difference in the number of turns (if there is any) between the two (front and back) coils. The best would be if you had an L meter to check the actual inductances. 
I think of phase shift in R-L circuits and it could also be checked by calculations.

Thanks,  Gyula

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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #76 on: December 27, 2014, 05:50:19 AM »
Recently Gotoluc saw a 90 degree phase lag on the output of a generator coil when the load resistor on the generator coil was only one ohm. Right away he said, "delayed Lenz effect."

MileHigh

I am not attached to calling this effect "delayed Lenz effect."
FYI, the topic I started was an attempt to study the effect so you EE could debate and decide what the effect is and call it what ever you decided was best to call it and that would of been fine with me.  However, you dominated the topic an tried to make me look incompetent and even writing things that I did not do, write or say. So I locked the topic to stop this nonsense.

BTW, here was my opening post of that topic:

Hi everyone,

I'm starting this topic to further study the effects of a generator coil which causes no load to its prime mover once connected to a 1 Ohm resistive load.
It seems we have many views about what could be happening in such a coil and maybe together we can find an explanation we can all agree upon.

I made a video of a simple test device that demonstrates a coil I consider having this quality.
A sense coil has been carefully positioned in order for both coil sinewaves to be in phase which can also serves as a rotor magnet timing reference.
During the video I didn't verbally explain because of the prime mover noise. However, it should be clear to most who have experience on the matter that once the coil is placed under the 1 Ohm load there is next to no change in Frequency (motor RPM). What's also clear is there's a delay in phase once I adjust the scope probe voltage division.
So the question is, what causes current to delay in a resistive load and what is going on in the coil to cause such an effect?

Link to video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0N0-sxa09c

Regards

Luc


Now I ask you or anyone else;
Does this sound like someone who is saying this effect is Delayed Lenz and or can only be call delayed Lenz?

So again I ask you, please show me the post I wrote where I had: " a 90 degree phase lag on the output of a generator coil when the load resistor on the generator coil was only one ohm and right away said, "delayed Lenz effect."

If you do find such a post I will be happy to apologize, because as you see from that topics first post I was not attached to calling it that.
However, if you don't find such a post I would like the same respect from you.

Regards

Luc

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #77 on: December 27, 2014, 06:13:39 AM »
Luc:

Okay, I concede right away that you did not state "delayed Lenz effect."

Now, was that hard?  Just to continue the narrative about that clip and the testing, I helped you and worked with you on that investigation.  I suggested that you change the value of the load resistor, and then the phase shift went away and started to go towards zero degrees.  Then I explained the likely simplified circuit was the EMF source in seres with an unknown inductance connected to the load resistor.  You thought that the "inductance" was the inductance of your generator coil and I explained to you that the coil was acting like an EMF source, and not like an inductance.

In other words, in working with you I basically explained to you want was happening over a dozen postings and a decent amount of effort tapping away at my keyboard.

I don't recall a single acknowledgment or thank you from you for that work.  Why is that?  I notice that when somebody makes a simple one-liner suggestion to you you heap praise on them.

Finally, you lied about me and I challenged you on that with a separate posting and I don't think that there was a single peep from you about that.  You are not without fault by a long shot.

So see how easy it is for me to admit that I was wrong?  I am just suggesting to you that you get your priorities straight.  If people help you have the courtesy to acknowledge it.  If you are wrong or make mistakes and you are corrected, acknowledge it and suck it up.  Sorry, but there is no magic halo over you protecting you from just the simple plain truth about your investigations.  Like I said before, I am not going to hire a Hallmark greeting card ghost writer to make everything all soft and sweet. Enough effort goes into getting the information out there, and I am not going to double or triple the required effort to make the prose all sweet and serene just for you.

MileHigh

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #78 on: December 27, 2014, 07:00:30 AM »
Well, this makes it the third time you write something I did not say or write as you wrote in your post.  Your audience can decide why you would do such a thing.

BTW, can you point me the post where I lied about you, as I'm not aware I did such a thing and would be more then happy to apologize if I did.

I think deep down you know that I do appreciate the opinion of EE as long as the message is done in a supportive way.
Maybe we can learn something from each other? ... I now see a supportive post: http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/msg429509/#msg429509

Kind regards

Luc

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #79 on: December 27, 2014, 07:21:14 PM »
Mark, that would be a good idea... ;D
But just seeing the drive side running faster with less energy input is more than enough for my satisfaction... :)
The problem is that it is not a direct measurement of what you want to know about.  Thane Heins and many others have gone down a similar rabbit hole where their proxy for a power gain has been shown to be false.
Quote

A generator coil is basically a motor coil and visa versa... 8)
That's very true.
Quote
It does turn into a electro magnet when it is energized by the rotor magnets so we just need to let that happend at a different time and it will help out the drive side instead of working against it... :o 8) ;D
That's a nice thought but there is this elephant in the room problem that the only source of return energy is the source energy less losses.  Losses don't get made up in volume.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #79 on: December 27, 2014, 07:21:14 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #80 on: December 27, 2014, 07:24:50 PM »
Well, this makes it the third time you write something I did not say or write as you wrote in your post.  Your audience can decide why you would do such a thing.

BTW, can you point me the post where I lied about you, as I'm not aware I did such a thing and would be more then happy to apologize if I did.

I think deep down you know that I do appreciate the opinion of EE as long as the message is done in a supportive way.
Maybe we can learn something from each other? ... I now see a supportive post: http://overunity.com/15083/the-new-generator-no-effect-counter-b-emf-part-2-selfrunning/msg429509/#msg429509

Kind regards


Luc

Nowhere nor at any time did Gotoluc call Milehigh a lier. Milehigh has proven in this way that he really ls a lier.


Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2014, 07:49:25 PM »
Nowhere nor at any time did Gotoluc call Milehigh a lier. Milehigh has proven in this way that he really ls a lier.

Please synchro1, I'm not asking for people to post there opinions... rather, trying to help us all see there are productive ways we can work together even if we see things in different extremes.
I think MileHigh is considering this approach and maybe why he has written a great post of his analysis to which I included a link to in my  post above.

The way I see it now is, MH is making an effort not to shoot down these experiments and rather be standing by to assist (if needed) so they can unfold themselves and that way we can all learn what we each need to lean. 

So now the ball is in your park, is there something you can learn from this which will assist the momentum to continue?

Kind Regards

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #81 on: December 27, 2014, 07:49:25 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2014, 08:26:43 PM »
Both of you:

My response to the accusation that I was a liar is in this very thread.  It will take you a few minutes to find it if you want to. It's not a question of shooting down any experiment or any person either.  It's just me sharing my technical evaluation of a given experiment or proposition with an expectation of getting reasonable feedback.  Just like there is the misnomer "delayed Lenz effect" there is the incorrect idea that you can manipulate magnetic flux through a generator coil by some other method that will give you a gain.  I have already rendered my opinion on that issue for Luc's new experiment so I don't have to say it again.  Some people that favour this proposition have told me that they don't believe me and this "new technique" will give some benefits.  That's their right and then we move forward from that point.

If I help Luc to get some meaningful data from his latest experiment then so much the better.  If he can get good data (which won't be easy but if you are determined then it is possible) the data will show that I was correct.  Nobody has to believe me right now if they don't want to.

Let's say that I am correct and the data shows nothing special and no gain.  Instead of just moving on, the ideal thing to do would be to go back and look at the original proposition and make a critical evaluation of it.  Understand what's going on and then a light goes off in your heads and you say, "I get it - redirecting flux with some external flux redirector system is no different than moving a coil past a magnet or moving a magnet past a coil - they are fundamentally the same thing with the same effects."

That would be the ideal knowledge gained from this experiment.  You have to truly understand the basic fundamentals.  Then next year when some funky design is put up by some YouTube guy in Moldavia (or wherever) that is just variation on the same thing - you guys can say I UNDERSTAND, this Moldavian guy's generator configuration is not going to do anything special.  That would be a big win.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2014, 12:15:29 AM »
This is for TK, we briefly discussed the model of a water pipe for an inductor (or vice-versa).  I can't remember what thread it was on, may have even been this one, so here goes:

The skinny:   Inductance is often referred to as "electrical momentum" and in a water pipe you have the momentum of the moving water.  End of story....

Let's look in more detail:

Let's look at the various analogies:  (we are always working in an environment where water pressure is akin to voltage and water flow is akin to current (or vice-versa for both variables))

You apply voltage to a coil and the current slowly builds up over time.
You apply pressure to water in a pipe and the water flow slowly builds up over time.

You suddenly try to stop the flow of current in a coil by putting a resistance across it and you get a high voltage spike and rapid decrease in current flow.
You suddenly try to stop the flow of water in a pipe by putting a blockage at the end of the pipe and you get a high pressure spike and rapid decrease in water flow.

If you have current flowing through an ideal coil with no resistance, it will flow forever.
If you have water flowing through an ideal loop of pipe connected end-to-end, it will flow forever.

The voltage across a coil is the inductance of the coil times the rate of change of current with respect to time.
The pressure across a length of pipe is the mass of the water times the rate of change of the speed of the water with respect to time.

When you first apply voltage to a coil it acts like an open circuit and no current flows.
When you fist apply pressure to a pipe filled with water it offers infinite resistance to the water flow and no water flows.

The energy in a coil is 1/2 L i-squared.
The energy in a length of pipe is 1/2 the mass of the water times the velocity of the water squared.

In a nutshell, water flowing in a pipe is analogous to current current flowing through a coil and vice-versa.

The classic question is, "But where is the external magnetic field?"   The answer is that you IGNORE the external magnetic field, it does not count.  The only thing that counts is the energy associated with the external magnetic field.  That magnetic energy is equivalent to the mass of water in the pipe times the square of the speed of the water.  Some of you have to try to wrap your minds around that and this may help:  On the bench you measure current flow with your multimeter and you don't think about the magnetic field that much.  But the magnetic field is always there.  The inductance even in straight wires is always there.

What's a water model for an LC resonator?  Here, to make it simple, we have to think outside the box just a little bit.

Imagine a big coil of hose on the floor.   It's 100 feet of hose coiled up into a coil five feet in diameter.  One end of the hose is connected to a tall water tank with an open top.   The other end of the hose is connected to another tall water tank with an open top.

Here are the initial conditions:  The hose is filled with water.  One tank is filled with water all the way to the top and there is a valve that is closed shut preventing the water to flow.  The other tank is empty.

Now, when you open the valve you will have a water LC tank circuit that will oscillate back and forth between the two water tanks.

Now, some complainers may say that there is too much friction and it will not oscillate.  Put your brains in gear, you are imagining that there is almost no friction in the hose or anywhere else in the water circuit.  It it was frictionless then the water tank "tank circuit" will oscillate forever.

Water is a "perfect" analogy for electricity.  All that you have to so is understand the limitations or use your imagination to bypass the limitations.

It means the plumbing in your house is like an electrical circuit consisting of real-world inductors where there is resistance in the wires.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2014, 02:52:35 AM »
No problems there, as you say the hydraulic analogy still works for inductors, considered as isolated circuit elements. And I'm sure most people have experienced "water hammer oscillators" in bad plumbing, I sure have. But what about magnetically coupled inductors? How do you model a transformer, say, in the hydraulic analogy?

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2014, 02:52:35 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2014, 04:01:56 AM »
There is no direct way to do it of course so we need to think about an alternative.

All that we need is a box (real or hypothetical) that has two input pipes and two output pipes.  The input pipes will accept high-flow-rate/low pressure water and the output pipes will output low-flow-rate/high pressure water.  In theory the water inlet can drive a primary real physical gear with teeth.  That gear is meshed with a secondary gear that drives the output pump that produces the low-flow-rate/high pressure water.

What's certainly more important is to understand that the flow rate and pressure of the water can track the current and voltage in a circuit.  Equally important is the energy dynamics will be the same.

Similar idea for a transistor.  You have a device with two input pipes and an output pipe.  The "base pipe" will control a valve that connects between the collector pipe and the emitter pipe.  It will all really work in real life if you can construct a three-pipe box that does that.

MileHigh

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2014, 09:46:28 PM »
Yep, i've seen Thane Heins videos and know what you're saying and i also agree with you on this... :)
Personally i don't think this is enough to get OU...never said or write it but i do think that it is a nice way to get some inside idea of how and what... ;)
I did write enough on how to get this in simple and many ways once one mix the basic ingredients properly... ;D

All the extra drag is a real no no even if the conventional generators have that problem to and that's why they are all engine driven...  :'(

Edit: the way Thane went about it is what i don't think is the way but the whole speed up under load is very nice indeed... ;D
There are both similarities and big differences between an engine or some other device driving a system and modulating a load such that it dissipates more or less power under some condition.  Under no load, faster or slower is really of little consequence because no useful work is being done. 

Offline synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #87 on: December 30, 2014, 10:31:16 PM »
There are both similarities and big differences between an engine or some other device driving a system and modulating a load such that it dissipates more or less power under some condition. Under no load, faster or slower is really of little consequence because no useful work is being done.

JLN makes it clear; "No Load" no "DLE'.

How the Delayed Lenz Effect (DLE) can be observed ?

•In the case of the motors/generators, the increase of the turn rate is produced by the DLE when the devices are loaded,

•In the case of solid state generator or special transformers (i.e. the Thane C. Heins' Bitt) , a drop of the input power is observed when a load is connected at the output.

•In the case of the generators, the increase of the turn rate is produced by the DLE when the devices are loaded above a critical minimum frequency. Below the critical minimum frequency the DLE coil will produce deceleration as per any conventional Lenz generator coil. Coil frequency dictates coil impedance which is a critical factor in producing generator DLE and on-load system acceleration.

The greater the load i.e. the closer it is to a dead short (an infinite number of resistors connected in parallel) the greater the DLE produced and the more system acceleration will be produced.

•The DLE can also be used to produce an unbalance (sink effect) between the outside (i.e the Earth ground) and the load, this is the case of the Tariel Kapanadze generator...

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #88 on: December 30, 2014, 11:18:51 PM »
JLN makes it clear; "No Load" no "DLE'.

How the Delayed Lenz Effect (DLE) can be observed ?

•In the case of the motors/generators, the increase of the turn rate is produced by the DLE when the devices are loaded,

•In the case of solid state generator or special transformers (i.e. the Thane C. Heins' Bitt) , a drop of the input power is observed when a load is connected at the output.

•In the case of the generators, the increase of the turn rate is produced by the DLE when the devices are loaded above a critical minimum frequency. Below the critical minimum frequency the DLE coil will produce deceleration as per any conventional Lenz generator coil. Coil frequency dictates coil impedance which is a critical factor in producing generator DLE and on-load system acceleration.

The greater the load i.e. the closer it is to a dead short (an infinite number of resistors connected in parallel) the greater the DLE produced and the more system acceleration will be produced.

•The DLE can also be used to produce an unbalance (sink effect) between the outside (i.e the Earth ground) and the load, this is the case of the Tariel Kapanadze generator...
That's pretty much just all signs of reduced power coupling.    I contend that the best device in this class is a device with no coupling at all.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2014, 02:30:44 AM »
That's pretty much just all signs of reduced power coupling.    I contend that the best device in this class is a device with no coupling at all.

Once again your trying to pass complete nonsense off as sagacious wisdom. The best no coupling device is between your ears.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #89 on: December 31, 2014, 02:30:44 AM »

 

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