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Author Topic: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?  (Read 30155 times)

Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2014, 02:54:26 PM »
It is: Induced magnetic field opposition.


Delayed Induced Magnetic Field Opposition. DIMFO it is.


So can we use DIMFO to achieve a delayed push force against the rotor with magnets using a loaded generator coil
positioned at a far end of a long ferromagnetic core?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2014, 03:01:38 PM »

Delayed Induced Magnetic Field Opposition. DIMFO it is.
There is no delay.  The induced opposition is immediate.  The appearance of a net external field change gets delayed by the opposing induced field.

Time Inducing Opposing Net External
T0  1 - 0.999 = 0.001
T1  1 - 0.995 = 0.005
T2  1 - 0.990 = 0.010
...
Tn  1 - 0.001 = 0.999


Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2014, 03:09:24 PM »
There is no delay.  The induced opposition is immediate.  The appearance of a net external field change gets delayed by the opposing induced field.

Time Inducing Opposing Net External
T0  1 - 0.999 = 0.001
T1  1 - 0.995 = 0.005
T2  1 - 0.990 = 0.010
...
Tn  1 - 0.001 = 0.999
The induced opposition is immediate at the location of a secondary coil but the phase delay causes this opposition to be seen shifted in time from the primary point of view.

We have a long core with 2 coils at its ends and You telling me that there is no delay in induction in the secondary?
I do not understand what You are saying.


And please answer my question from the previous post.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2014, 03:50:01 PM »
What do you mean by dots backwards?.

Hi Brad,

Dots refer to coils winding sense.  In a schematic for instance a dot is put as symbol to one end of a coil to indicate say the start of a winding and if there are other coils on the same core, then the dots are put to those coils corresponding endings or starts.

Gyula


Offline tinman

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2014, 04:09:35 PM »
Hi Brad,

Dots refer to coils winding sense.  In a schematic for instance a dot is put as symbol to one end of a coil to indicate say the start of a winding and if there are other coils on the same core, then the dots are put to those coils corresponding endings or starts.

Gyula
Would it not be easier and simpler to say !phase correct!,or are the coils in phase with each other-->or even polarity correct?.
In which case,they are. And either way,why are they out of phase?.

So who wants to tell me why or how(in this simple setup)that two coils on the same core that are polarity correct,can be out of phase with each other? And why can i shift that phase veriation simply by adjusting the load on one of the coil's?. Also note that it is the coil that is furtherest away from the rotor that is leading in phase. If it is the magnetic field that induces the current in the inductor's,then this clearly show's either a delay of that field in one inductor,or an advanced field in the other.

Oh but wait-there's more.
1st-there is no reflection what so ever on the prime mover when the secondary coil is loaded,as you can see on the scope shot's,the Hz didnt change with varing loads.101.761Hz with both load's-it dosnt come much more accurate than that.The DMM also never changed,not even by .1mA
2nd-with the secondary coil loaded with a set load,the primary coil will produce the same voltage across a 100 ohm resistor as it will over a 220ohm resistor,a 470 ohm resistor,and a 1k resistor.
There is no speed up under load,but there is also no change to P/in or rpm when the secondary is loaded.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2014, 04:09:35 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2014, 04:16:18 PM »
The induced opposition is immediate at the location of a secondary coil but the phase delay causes this opposition to be seen shifted in time from the primary point of view.
I agree.  But induction is where the flux is.  In this case the secondary.
Quote

We have a long core with 2 coils at its ends and You telling me that there is no delay in induction in the secondary?
I do not understand what You are saying.
Again:  Induction is where the flux is.  And where the flux is there is no delay in the induced EMF.
Quote


And please answer my question from the previous post.
I will go back to it and answer it if I have not already done so.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2014, 04:24:47 PM »
Would it not be easier and simpler to say !phase correct!,or are the coils in phase with each other-->or even polarity correct?.
In which case,they are. And either way,why are they out of phase?.
The phase delay can be caused by several things.  Because you are only using resistors and inductors, the induced current should only go from being in phase with the inducing EMF to lagging it.  There is insufficient information so far to determine which coil is leading.  If you capture a one time step then which is leading and which is lagging will be self-evident.
Quote

So who wants to tell me why or how(in this simple setup)that two coils on the same core that are polarity correct,can be out of phase with each other? And why can i shift that phase veriation simply by adjusting the load on one of the coil's?. Also note that it is the coil that is furtherest away from the rotor that is leading in phase. If it is the magnetic field that induces the current in the inductor's,then this clearly show's either a delay of that field in one inductor,or an advanced field in the other.
The phase shift through an L/R network depends on the relative magnitude of the inductive reactance at the driven frequency to the resistance.  Changing the resistance changes that ratio and therefore the phase shift.
Quote

Oh but wait-there's more.
1st-there is no reflection what so ever on the prime mover when the secondary coil is loaded,as you can see on the scope shot's,the Hz didnt change with varing loads.101.761Hz with both load's-it dosnt come much more accurate than that.The DMM also never changed,not even by .1mA
2nd-with the secondary coil loaded with a set load,the primary coil will produce the same voltage across a 100 ohm resistor as it will over a 220ohm resistor,a 470 ohm resistor,and a 1k resistor.
There is no speed up under load,but there is also no change to P/in or rpm when the secondary is loaded.
When loading a secondary does not affect the load seen by the primary it means that the primary and secondary have poor coupling.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #66 on: December 26, 2014, 04:24:47 PM »
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Offline kEhYo77

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #67 on: December 26, 2014, 05:03:55 PM »
Induction is where the flux is.  And where the flux is there is no delay in the induced EMF. I will go back to it and answer it if I have not already done so.


Please elaborate on that. Right now it is a bit murky explanation.


What causes the induction of current in a coil at an end of our long core is the change in magnetic field in the immediate vicinity of that coil,
so only within the volume of space close to copper and a short core part at the end. The flux is already there. Every magnetic domain
is attached to magnetic flux going through it at all times but their direction is random (mainly oriented to Earth's magnetic field).
It is the moment when all those fluxes line up in unified direction (causing net change in unified now magnetic fluxes sum) things start to get interesting.
But this magnetization arrived there in the form of a wave front, decoupled from the source by the mere existence of space and distance and propagation limits.
Any counter reaction obeys the same laws of interaction between neighboring domains and and a wave front of that change has to travel some distance to be felt by the source.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2014, 05:38:34 PM »

Please elaborate on that. Right now it is a bit murky explanation.
I think it is quite simple:  Faraday + Lenz, and Maxwell / Heavyside both give us EMF across a conductor when changing magnetic flux impinges the conductor orthogonally.  That effect is instant to the impinging field.  No impinging field and no induction.
Quote


What causes the induction of current in a coil at an end of our long core is the change in magnetic field in the immediate vicinity of that coil,
Exactly, so from a timing perspective we want to know when flux changes impinge that coil.
Quote
so only within the volume of space close to copper and a short core part at the end. The flux is already there. Every magnetic domain
is attached to magnetic flux going through it at all times but their direction is random (mainly oriented to Earth's magnetic field).
It is the moment when all those fluxes line up in unified direction (causing net change in unified now magnetic fluxes sum) things start to get interesting.
It's changing flux that induces EMF.  Static flux is of no concern.
Quote
But this magnetization arrived there in the form of a wave front, decoupled from the source by the mere existence of space and distance and propagation limits.
On a nanosecond scale yes.  Otherwise we are talking about eddy currents and/or magnetic viscosity effects as the source of delay.
Quote
Any counter reaction obeys the same laws of interaction between neighboring domains and and a wave front of that change has to travel some distance to be felt by the source.
Sure.

Offline picowatt

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2014, 06:11:05 PM »
Well this is interesting,but i have just found the reverse. I have been setting up a test bed generator system to test many different configuration's,and have just found out that the coil furtherest away can in actual fact be leading in phase ???. Im not sure why this is,but it is.I am using 1 ferite C core with the primary coil rapped around it,and a second C core the same that forms a D core. The coil on the D core is leading in phase to that of the coil on the C core that the magnets pass through.

Below is a pic of the setup(1st pic)
2nd pic is of the two coils and two C core's.
1st scope shot is with a 10 ohm load(resistor) across the secondary coil(back coil furtherest away from the rotor). This is the yellow trace. The primary coil(one nearest to the rotor) has a 100 ohm resistor across it at all times,and this is the blue trace on the scope.
2nd scope shot is with a 100 ohm load(resistor) across the secondary coil.

So who here can tell me why the secondary coil is leading in phase to that of the primary coil?. Why is there a phase lag on the coil closest to the magnet's?How is the magnetic field phase being delayed in the primary when it is that coil that is closest to the magnets on the rotor?.

Tinman,

You might consider adding a pickup coil to generate an external trigger for your scope so that you can be certain which coil is actually leading.

A small pickup coil could be positioned next to the leading edge of one of the main core's poles to ensure that the generated trigger pulse leads the phase of both the primary/secondary coil outputs.  Although a bit more difficult to implement, you could also generate a trigger optically if you feel a magnetic pickup coil affects your results. However, I'd try a small pickup coil first.

PW

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2014, 06:11:05 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2014, 08:05:02 PM »
Picowatt:

Exactly, you can't trigger on something that itself might be changing in phase if you are looking for phase shifts.  I made a similar recommendation a while back.

I already see a lot of positives coming from this ongoing debate.  Experimenters are starting to think, and to think critically about what they are doing and what they are sayng.  The catch-all term "delayed Lenz effect" was holding them back and preventing them from truly thinking.

I also note that the term "Lenz" goes much further than that, and it's also corrupting the debate and corrupting the thinking processes of the experimenters for other things.

"Lenz" in the context of the forum and in general just refers to the "Lenz drag" (the mechanical drag) that a rotor experiences when it passes a generator coil that is driving a load.  That is the generally accepted usage of the term.

But people use terms like "Lenz free transformer" and "Lenz free generator."  There is a related term, "Generator no effect counter BEMF."  I don't even understand what the third term is supposed to mean.

So to expand the debate and the thought processes a bit, people have to start using the proper terms, and stop making up terms that include the "magic word" "Lenz."

There are words and proper terms and concepts to describe what you are trying to accomplish.  If in doubt discuss it on the forum and figure it out.

Again, there is no such thing as a "Lenz free transformer" in the sense that there is no mechanical drag associated with a transformer.  If you are alluding to the fact that the transformer is supposed to not show an electrical load on the primary while driving a load on the secondary (a hypothetical over unity device) then come up with a term that properly describes that.  Something like "minimal primary load transformer" or something.  Just don't use the term "Lenz" when it clearly does not apply.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2014, 08:56:32 PM »
Tinman:

Quote
Below is a pic of the setup(1st pic)
2nd pic is of the two coils and two C core's.
1st scope shot is with a 10 ohm load(resistor) across the secondary coil(back coil furtherest away from the rotor). This is the yellow trace. The primary coil(one nearest to the rotor) has a 100 ohm resistor across it at all times,and this is the blue trace on the scope.
2nd scope shot is with a 100 ohm load(resistor) across the secondary coil.

So who here can tell me why the secondary coil is leading in phase to that of the primary coil?. Why is there a phase lag on the coil closest to the magnet's?How is the magnetic field phase being delayed in the primary when it is that coil that is closest to the magnets on the rotor?.

I don't have the answer for you here and I didn't read all the postings so I am not sure if this is an open or closed investigation for you.

I just want to discuss the process for you.  Recently Gotoluc saw a 90 degree phase lag on the output of a generator coil when the load resistor on the generator coil was only one ohm.  Right away he said, "delayed Lenz effect."  I asked him to increase the value of the load resistor and as he did that the phase delay disappeared and went towards zero degrees.  It looked like his setup was (AC EMF source) -> (unknown inductance) -> (load resistor).  With a setup like that you will get the results that he saw on his scope.

The moral of the story is you can take your original data and then start to develop a plan for figuring out what is going on.  You see a different phase shift between a 10-ohm resistor and a 100-ohm resistor?  Your setup is a bit more complicated but you can develop some kind of process for investigating that.  Let's assume that you can keep your rotor speed constant.  So what happens as you vary the values of one, the other, or both resistances?  Do you see any trending in the phase shift as you change the values of the resistances?  These are the kinds of things that you have to do to figure out what is going on.   We collectively have to get past the times where people say, "Look, I just proved that something unusual is going on" or "I just proved the 'delayed Lens effect' is real."  The way circuits like this is often work is a function of frequency, resistance, capacitance, and inductance.  You have to explore the variations and make your own notes and observations to understand what might be going on.  This is getting a bit deeper into how electronic circuits work.  Hopefully, you have fun in the process of doing the investigation!

MileHigh


Offline lzbin80

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2014, 09:44:50 PM »
It's always the NATURE that misunderstood.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2014, 10:11:20 PM »
TM, nice going there mate... ;)

As long as we use the right mixture of the ingredients we will have the Delayed Lenz Effect... 8) ;D

Here is one tiny coil showing this effect,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlCyY5hp6HQ&index=56&list=UUNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw

Here are two of the same tiny coil showing this effect,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwPDDvzZFXQ&list=UUNk6nZuUrTLRnp__hAgAqjw

As one can see i've taken another route to achieve this Delayed Lenz Effect but it is being done with the same ingredients but the difference is in thier amount... ;D 8) ;)
It's like baking a cake, you can use the same ingredients but if you don't follow the amount needed you'll end up with a brick or a sponge...lol... :o ;D ;)
If the claim is that the coils can be configured such that the right hand wheel is actually operating as a motor then you need to put a torque transducer between that wheel and the rest of the system.


Offline tinman

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2014, 12:35:00 AM »
Tinman:

I don't have the answer for you here and I didn't read all the postings so I am not sure if this is an open or closed investigation for you.

I just want to discuss the process for you.  Recently Gotoluc saw a 90 degree phase lag on the output of a generator coil when the load resistor on the generator coil was only one ohm.  Right away he said, "delayed Lenz effect."  I asked him to increase the value of the load resistor and as he did that the phase delay disappeared and went towards zero degrees.  It looked like his setup was (AC EMF source) -> (unknown inductance) -> (load resistor).  With a setup like that you will get the results that he saw on his scope.

The moral of the story is you can take your original data and then start to develop a plan for figuring out what is going on.  You see a different phase shift between a 10-ohm resistor and a 100-ohm resistor?  Your setup is a bit more complicated but you can develop some kind of process for investigating that.  Let's assume that you can keep your rotor speed constant.  So what happens as you vary the values of one, the other, or both resistances?  Do you see any trending in the phase shift as you change the values of the resistances?  These are the kinds of things that you have to do to figure out what is going on.   We collectively have to get past the times where people say, "Look, I just proved that something unusual is going on" or "I just proved the 'delayed Lens effect' is real."  The way circuits like this is often work is a function of frequency, resistance, capacitance, and inductance.  You have to explore the variations and make your own notes and observations to understand what might be going on.  This is getting a bit deeper into how electronic circuits work.  Hopefully, you have fun in the process of doing the investigation!

MileHigh
MH
Regardless of load resistance,why is there any phase difference in this simple setup?. It opperates at a very low frequency(101Hz),and i am using ferite cores of the same type with a 1 to 1 coupling.
Some things you may have missed.
the phase difference grows larger as i decrease the load(increase the resistance value)on the secondary coil,un like Luc's setup where as you had to increase the load to bring the two back into phase.

So the next thing i tried was to use my SG to power the primary using an AC sine wave so as to obtain the same P/P voltage across the primary coil. I ran it up to 150KHz,and no phase shift what so ever-regardless of load on the secondary. The effect(what ever it is-->and i havent called it this lenz delay,only that it seems that the magnetic field is some how being delayed or advanced to one of the coil's) only seems present when the PM's are used to generate the current flow in the coils.

I am going to do what PW suggested,and put a small coil on the setup to trigger from. I have a feeling that each phase is going to move -one advancing,and one retarding.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2014, 12:35:00 AM »

 

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