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Author Topic: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?  (Read 29285 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2014, 12:32:50 AM »
MarkE'S comment is too eclectic and obtuse to be of any value. He thinks too big. He's all over the map with a rambling comment that is completely directionless. All he's out to do is flummox people into thinking he's a top brain when he's just a phony punk. MarkE is guilty of "Free association". He can't stick to the point.

It's a topsy-turvy world sometimes.  MarkE is highly educated and really knows his stuff.  Granted, he speaks at a technical level that will be above many people.  If you really want to through, you have your magic computer on your desk that can access millions of terabytes of data.  Syncro1 is guilty of the very criticisms that he directs towards MarkE.  Synchro1 is the one that is all over the map and the "secret sauce" that he talks about changes from week to week.

So although it may be tough to follow sometimes, MarkE is brilliant and knows his stuff.  He is knowledgeable across many disciplines also.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline tinman

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2014, 01:17:12 AM »
It's a topsy-turvy world sometimes.  MarkE is highly educated and really knows his stuff.  Granted, he speaks at a technical level that will be above many people.  If you really want to through, you have your magic computer on your desk that can access millions of terabytes of data.  Syncro1 is guilty of the very criticisms that he directs towards MarkE.  Synchro1 is the one that is all over the map and the "secret sauce" that he talks about changes from week to week.

So although it may be tough to follow sometimes, MarkE is brilliant and knows his stuff.  He is knowledgeable across many disciplines also.
But is he one or many?

Anyway,im still not done with this subject yet,must look at it a little more,a few more experiments to do yet.
Dose a wave roll quicker through water or oil?. Is there something that can hinder the speed at which the magnetic wave/field can travel through the iron core that is the lenz force?.
Has anyone ever done an experiment to see if current flows through a 1 ohm resistor faster or slower than it dose through a 1k ohm resistor?


Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2014, 03:20:43 AM »
But is he one or many?

Anyway,im still not done with this subject yet,must look at it a little more,a few more experiments to do yet.
Dose a wave roll quicker through water or oil?. Is there something that can hinder the speed at which the magnetic wave/field can travel through the iron core that is the lenz force?.
Has anyone ever done an experiment to see if current flows through a 1 ohm resistor faster or slower than it dose through a 1k ohm resistor?
Are you suggesting that I am really a group of people? 

The speed at which waves propagate does indeed depend on the medium that they propagate through.  An E/M wave propagates more slowly through materials that have higher uR * eR products than smaller uR * eR products.  Let us suppose that one has a lossless transmission line.  For some design frequency one can construct either a quarter wave long line or a half wave long line.  A quarter wave line transforms transfer impedance between ports from high to low.  If we drive a quarter wave line that is open at the far end, it looks like a short to the near end that we drive.  If we short the far end, then the near end looks like an open.  In the half wave case, the line reflects the far end impedance to the source.  If the far end impedance is low, then the source sees a low impedance.  If the far end impedance is high, then the source sees a high impedance.  If the transmission line is real, then the the transformations degrade.  In all cases we are talking about a combination of loss mechanisms and storage mechanisms.  Neither create energy.  Ideal storage mechanisms, none of which truly exist, simply hold onto energy for some time allowing us to get that energy back later.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2014, 03:54:49 AM »
Has anyone ever done an experiment to see if current flows through a 1 ohm resistor faster or slower than it dose through a 1k ohm resistor?

That's an excellent question Bard!... Just yesterday I found power calculations issues when using different resistive loads and it was only between 1 and 12.5 Ohms
What I found is a higher resistive value seemed to yield a better power efficiency.

Luc


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2014, 04:58:25 AM »
But is he one or many?

Anyway,im still not done with this subject yet,must look at it a little more,a few more experiments to do yet.
Dose a wave roll quicker through water or oil?. Is there something that can hinder the speed at which the magnetic wave/field can travel through the iron core that is the lenz force?.
Has anyone ever done an experiment to see if current flows through a 1 ohm resistor faster or slower than it dose through a 1k ohm resistor?

You're kidding, right? Sitting at a working computer, asking if current flows at different speeds through different values of resistors? 

Just in case you aren't kidding, you can easily do the experiment yourself. Use two resistors of the same kind and power capacity: for example two metal film 1/4 watt resistors. Keep your wiring lengths the same, and as short as possible, so that your results aren't contaminated by inductive effects. Send a pulse from your FG through both resistors in parallel, and monitor what comes out the other ends with your 2-channel oscilloscope. Do you detect any phase difference in the signal outputs from the two resistors?

As MarkE points out:
Quote
The speed at which waves propagate does indeed depend on the medium that they propagate through.  An E/M wave propagates more slowly through materials that have higher uR * eR products than smaller uR * eR products.

So if your resistors are the same type, they should both have the same transmission speed (the speed of light in that medium) and their actual resistance value should make no difference, if their effective lengths are the same.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2014, 04:58:25 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2014, 05:10:49 AM »
That's an excellent question Bard!... Just yesterday I found power calculations issues when using different resistive loads and it was only between 1 and 12.5 Ohms
What I found is a higher resistive value seemed to yield a better power efficiency.

Luc

It's actually a rather bizarre question and hopefully Brad will explain himself further.  It's a topic that would never be mentioned in an electronics lab because on face value it doesn't make sense.  MarkE discussed transmission line effects related to wavelength/frequency and the relative permeability and relative permittivity of the line affecting the propagation speed but I somehow doubt that was related to what Tinman was discussing.

Meanwhile, you called me a liar and I take serious issue with that.  You used ridiculous contorted logic to make that allegation that doesn't even make sense.  I gave a full reply to your false allegation in posting #5 on this very thread.  I suggest that you read it.  There are other issues discussed there also pertaining to you that you should seriously consider.

If you decide to play invisible in plain sight and not acknowledge this, that's your choice.  Do not falsely allege that I am a liar again, especially with the kind of nonsensical logic like you used recently.

MileHigh

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2014, 05:28:41 AM »
As MarkE points out:
So if your resistors are the same type, they should both have the same transmission speed (the speed of light in that medium) and their actual resistance value should make no difference, if their effective lengths are the same.
Theoretically there is a small difference:  propagation through larger value SMT resistors should be slightly faster than through smaller value resistors of the same package size.  The differences for common SMT sizes are in femtoseconds.  The reason for the difference is that the larger value resistors will have more of the field in the air above the resistor than smaller value resistors where more of the field is in the eR ~= 10 of the alumina, and the eR ~= 4 - 5 of the printed circuit substrate.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2014, 05:28:41 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2014, 05:30:11 AM »
MH:

Tinmans' question actually makes sense to me given your water analogy with electricity.  I am going out on a limb here a bit but...consider a water hose of say, 3/4" dia connected to a garden spigot.  Say the hose is 10 foot long.  Turn the spigot on, and based upon the pressure provided by the water company (voltage, right?) and given the I.D. of the hose you get "X" amount of water output/minute. (Amperage or power)  The water will also flow at a given velocity that is easily calculated (not by me) given the above parameters.  Call this velocity "V".  It is fixed for this configuration unless something is changed.

Now, let us pinch this hose and restrict the flow.  This increases the pressure but restricts the flow.  It also increases the velocity of the water.

Now I know that resistors do not increase the pressure (amperage) but isn't the pinched hose an analogy of a resistor?  If so, it would increase the velocity of the "flow" which makes Tinman's question make sense to me.

Perhaps my analogy is flawed somewhere and does not fit with your water analogy.  I am not seeing in this case how a resistor can restrict the flow of amperage without increasing the voltage (pressure) and the velocity (speed of flow) as in my above example.

Please excuse my ignorance, but the good news is that I was trained to see electricity as analogous to the flow of water, so, I just need to fill in a few holes in my understanding.

Bill

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2014, 05:51:29 AM »
Theoretically there is a small difference:  propagation through larger value SMT resistors should be slightly faster than through smaller value resistors of the same package size.  The differences for common SMT sizes are in femtoseconds.  The reason for the difference is that the larger value resistors will have more of the field in the air above the resistor than smaller value resistors where more of the field is in the eR ~= 10 of the alumina, and the eR ~= 4 - 5 of the printed circuit substrate.

That blew some fuses in some heads!  lol   Next thing you know you will be talking about "light pancakes" being emitted by pulsed lasers.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2014, 06:01:12 AM »
Bill:

No your example is not good, so let me give you a better example.   Certainly the idea of a hose being pinched acting like a resistor is correct in principle, but we will put that aside for a better and simpler example.

See the attached pic of an in-line particle filter.  That is a 'much purer' form of a 'water resistor.'   It's evident that here is no pinching of the hose or increased velocity.  It will give off heat just like an electrical resistor.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2014, 06:01:12 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #40 on: December 26, 2014, 07:57:33 AM »
You're kidding, right? Sitting at a working computer, asking if current flows at different speeds through different values of resistors? 

Just in case you aren't kidding, you can easily do the experiment yourself. Use two resistors of the same kind and power capacity: for example two metal film 1/4 watt resistors. Keep your wiring lengths the same, and as short as possible, so that your results aren't contaminated by inductive effects. Send a pulse from your FG through both resistors in parallel, and monitor what comes out the other ends with your 2-channel oscilloscope. Do you detect any phase difference in the signal outputs from the two resistors?

As MarkE points out:
So if your resistors are the same type, they should both have the same transmission speed (the speed of light in that medium) and their actual resistance value should make no difference, if their effective lengths are the same.
I have done the experiment under strict controlled conditions TK--have you?
Light can travel at different speed's depending on the enviroment that it is traveling through.
Magnetic waves can travel at different speeds depending on the enviroment it is traveling through.
So why is it that you think !the speed of current traveling through a different resistance couldnt be different! is such a silly question?.

I will wait a bit before i post me result's.

Offline tinman

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #41 on: December 26, 2014, 08:04:03 AM »
I will also be posting a video in regard's to the delayed lenz force,which also brought about some interesting finding's in regards to Thane Heins bi toroid transformer.--> have the guru's really had a close look at the effect's?-->have you built one and tried it?--me neither until today.

VERY surprising result's !i must say!. :o


Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #42 on: December 26, 2014, 09:08:25 AM »
MH:

Tinmans' question actually makes sense to me given your water analogy with electricity.  I am going out on a limb here a bit but...consider a water hose of say, 3/4" dia connected to a garden spigot.  Say the hose is 10 foot long.  Turn the spigot on, and based upon the pressure provided by the water company (voltage, right?) and given the I.D. of the hose you get "X" amount of water output/minute. (Amperage or power)  The water will also flow at a given velocity that is easily calculated (not by me) given the above parameters.  Call this velocity "V".  It is fixed for this configuration unless something is changed.

Now, let us pinch this hose and restrict the flow.  This increases the pressure but restricts the flow.  It also increases the velocity of the water.

Now I know that resistors do not increase the pressure (amperage) but isn't the pinched hose an analogy of a resistor?  If so, it would increase the velocity of the "flow" which makes Tinman's question make sense to me.

Perhaps my analogy is flawed somewhere and does not fit with your water analogy.  I am not seeing in this case how a resistor can restrict the flow of amperage without increasing the voltage (pressure) and the velocity (speed of flow) as in my above example.

Please excuse my ignorance, but the good news is that I was trained to see electricity as analogous to the flow of water, so, I just need to fill in a few holes in my understanding.

Bill
The analogy works in terms of flow: Pinch a hose introducing a pressure drop and the flow rate drops.  Introduce  a resistor into a DC circuit introducing a voltage drop and the current (rate of charge movement) drops. 

The linear speed that water passes through the hose does not have a direct analogy in electricity.  In a wire there is a drift rate of electrons which is very slow.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #43 on: December 26, 2014, 09:32:15 AM »
I have done the experiment under strict controlled conditions TK--have you?
Light can travel at different speed's depending on the enviroment that it is traveling through.
Magnetic waves can travel at different speeds depending on the enviroment it is traveling through.
So why is it that you think current traveling through a different resistance is such a silly question?.

I will wait a bit before i post me result's.
Certainly if one builds an RC circuit it emulates a restriction and an accumulator in both the hydraulic and pneumatic analogies.  However in all three cases:  the resistor or restriction reduces the flow of charge and fluid respectively.  The linear speed of molecules in the linear flow increases according to Bernoulli's Principle.  The simple fluid model analogies work well at low frequencies.  They don't work well at high frequencies. in the hydraulic and pneumatic cases, the fluid is the "stuff" that moves.  In electromagnetics: waves move through media, and with few exceptions do so very fast. 


Offline tinman

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2014, 09:54:58 AM »
You're kidding, right? Sitting at a working computer, asking if current flows at different speeds through different values of resistors? 


Current flows at different speeds in different size wire,which in turn has a different resistive value per meter.
This should be fun ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2014, 09:54:58 AM »

 

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