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Author Topic: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?  (Read 37893 times)

Online synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2014, 06:19:42 PM »
Synchro1 you keep repeating this claim.  The claim is false.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html

Induction is an electromagnetic phenomenon.
As seen above induction is necessary in order to have a situation where Lenz' Law is applicable.
Ergo Lenz' Law describes an aspect of an electromagnetic phenomenon.
Ergo any reference to Lenz must reference electromagnetics.

This is very fundamental.  There is no give.

You'e just full of crap.

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Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2014, 06:45:53 PM »
One thing that I think is happening is that most of the devices and circuits that are supposed to show the effects that are attributed to DLE are actually so inefficient that the usual tests might be just "running on inefficiency" if you know what I mean.

My "garden hose" example tries to illustrate what I mean. Say you are in the back yard with your garden hose, on full blast, and you have a sensitive flowmeter attached to the nozzle. You're spraying your garden, the sidewalk, over the fence etc. like mad, at full power, and you take a reading on the flowmeter. Now someone comes along with a bucket and collects some of the overspray. Does the flowmeter reading change? Of course it doesn't. Now the person pours the water in the bucket onto the garden where it belongs... so you are getting more water to the garden than before. Does the flowmeter reading change?
Get it? Running on inefficiency.

There is a belief, it seems, that simply shorting an output coil provides the "heaviest" load on a generator system. This may not be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem
This sort of situation happens frequently:  A fundamentally inefficient process is used as a reference.  A variable is changed and presto there is better overall efficiency.  When the source of inefficient operation is a shunt regulator then the change in the output is not detected by the input.  A shunt regulator can be configured to load an input with a constant load, while delivering a variable output.  Another analogy is controlling the motion of a vehicle by maintaining constant throttle and varying control over the brakes.  Power from the engine goes into heating the brakes or accelerating the car / overcoming friction and aerodynamic losses.  Even though the engine load can be arranged to be very steady, this is a very inefficient way to run a car.

You are also absolutely correct that minimum load impedance rarely means most externally delivered power.  It often means the most internally dissipated power.  In the simple DC case:  Given a source with an internal resistance RSOURCE and an external load with impedance RLOAD  the maximum load current occurs when RLOAD approaches zero.  However, that means that almost all the source voltage appears across RSOURCE, and therefore almost all power is dissipated in RSOURCE.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2014, 06:47:25 PM »
You'e just full of crap.
If so then you should be able to refute my statements using verifiable facts.

Online synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2014, 07:35:33 PM »
If so then you should be able to refute my statements using verifiable facts.
    Everybody knows you jerks are just a couple of clowns. Lenz's law has nothing to do with DLE. The effect should be termed Magnetic core delayed Lenz effect.

Online synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2014, 08:45:34 PM »
No one can make heads nor tails out of anything you monkeys say. You grifters have been running a "Back Alley Shell and Pea Game" the enire time for your "Tar Sand" payolla group. Your're completely shameless about trying to dupe the learners. I refuse to let you get away with it.

What I need help with is to determine what effect magnets have on core viscosity and phase lag. All you three have done is side track this branch of research. Last year this time, Milehigh bombed in on my Conradelectro magnet core coil test and caused a serious problem. Nothing meaningfull has taken place in the meantime.

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2014, 08:45:34 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2014, 10:15:08 PM »
No one can make heads nor tails out of anything you monkeys say. You grifters have been running a "Back Alley Shell and Pea Game" the enire time for your "Tar Sand" payolla group. Your're completely shameless about trying to dupe the learners. I refuse to let you get away with it.

What I need help with is to determine what effect magnets have on core viscosity and phase lag. All you three have done is side track this branch of research. Last year this time, Milehigh bombed in on my Conradelectro magnet core coil test and caused a serious problem. Nothing meaningfull has taken place in the meantime.

Kiss my ass with your bullshit about Conradelectro.  You are fully aware that Conradelectro respects me and despises you.  I think at this point the whole forum looks at you with bewilderment and fear.  You are the new "Separated at birth from Wilby Inebriated" wild and scary guy.

Online synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2014, 10:49:30 PM »
Kiss my ass with your bullshit about Conradelectro.  You are fully aware that Conradelectro respects me and despises you.  I think at this point the whole forum looks at you with bewilderment and fear.  You are the new "Separated at birth from Wilby Inebriated" wild and scary guy.

Get a life!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2014, 10:49:30 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2014, 05:59:20 AM »
Here is a little interlude.   Call it a public service announcement.

'I won’t be doing THAT again': Twitter troll sorry for abusing boxer who then turned up at his door

Cyber-bully who targeted Curtis Woodhouse also abused Victoria Beckham, Davina McCall, Katie Price, Lennox Lewis, Rio Ferdinand and Michelle Keegan

This is the Twitter troll who got the shock of his life when a boxer he had been abusing turned up in his street.

Shamefaced cyber bully James O’Brien yesterday issued a grovelling public apology to professional fighter Curtis Woodhouse for spending months taunting the former footballer on the micro blogging site.

It has now emerged the boxer was not the only celebrity to fall victim to the cowardly tweeter’s obscene rants.

He has also targeted Victoria Beckham, Davina McCall, Katie Price, Lennox Lewis, Rio Ferdinand and Coronation Street actress Michelle Keegan, sending them all vile messages.

Curtis, 32, was so enraged with the foul-mouthed abuse that he offered a £1,000 reward to any of his 18,000 followers who could help him find the culprit.

After his plea paid off he drove 60 miles from his home in Driffield, East Yorkshire, on Monday night to the ‘keyboard warrior’s’ address and tweeted a picture of his street in South Yorkshire.

When tracked down by the Daily Mirror about his disgusting behaviour the following day, embarrassed O’Brien said: “I’m sorry.”

Mr O’Brien, 24, who was in bed at midday after working a night shift, said: “I really regretted it. You see, all of my mates were egging me on to say things.

“It was just a bit of fun but it got really our of hand. I couldn’t believe it when I realised he was coming here.”

In response to the outrage his offensive tweets to celebrities has caused, he added: “I won’t be doing it again and I would like to apologise for my actions again.

“I’d tell other people to think twice about doing this kind of thing because you never know what the consequences will be.

“Now I just look silly.”

The internet bully said he was desperately trying to delete his profile from Twitter.

He said: “I’ve been trying to delete my account since last night but for some reason my phone won’t let me.

“I just can’t believe how out of hand the whole thing has got.

"I was at work when Curtis came here so I wasn’t home but my phone was ringing off the hook. It was crazy.”

Messages he sent to Curtis, who played for Hull City and Sheffield United, included: “retire immediately cant even defend a pathetic little title you are a complete disgrace #awfulboxer”.

After this appeared the boxer threatened to track him down, he tweeted; “chill out pal i was only doing it so you would bite back it was only a bit of harmless fun.”

Then he was left in shock when Curtis tweeted a picture of a street sign on the road which ‘Jimbob’ lives with the words, ‘Right Jimbob im here’, adding: ‘Someone tell me what number he lives at or do I have to knock on every door £itsshowtime.’

Quickly backtracking, Jimmyob88 tweeted: ‘I am sorry it’s getting a bit out of hand,’ he tweeted. ‘I am in the wrong. I accept that.’

Woodhouse - dubbed the Driffield Destroyer - eventually went home, and later jokingly tweeted: ‘Just found out you can block people. Could have let me know earlier, I could have saved 20 quid in petrol.’

Since the drama unfolded Curtis Woodhouse has 5,000 more followers - including Lennox Lewis and John Prescott - who applauded the fight back.

Boxing giant Lennox Lewis had also been targeted by O’Brien who had threatened to give the heavyweight a “knuckle butty.”

The former world heavyweight champion tweeted: ‘Ha! I LOVE this story about @woodhousecurtis paying a visit to a £keyboardwarrior on Twitter.’

And former Deputy Prime Minister John Prescott - who once famously punched a heckler for throwing an egg at him - tweeted: ‘THIS is how we deal with things in Hull.

Boxer @WoodhouseCurtis tracks down a Twitter troll to his street!’

Other victims of twitter trolls also thanked the boxer for taking action and passed on their own experiences of other trolls with one revealing: “I had someone wish my family die of cancer.

"Beyond belief. Just evil.”

- Mr O'Brien apologised to Mr Woodhouse live on television today.

Appearing on ITV's Daybreak he said: "I was really childish. Looking back on it, I realised that I had done a wrong thing," he said.

"I can only offer my deepest apologies to anyone I ever abused on Twitter. I've let everyone down - friends, family - and I do feel really embarrassed."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5xnmvnEwuI

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2014, 06:11:58 AM »
I will dedicate this posting to Synchro1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFw2nk4VntU

Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2014, 10:35:08 AM »
    Everybody knows you jerks are just a couple of clowns. Lenz's law has nothing to do with DLE. The effect should be termed Magnetic core delayed Lenz effect.
Oh my: are you really claiming that "Delayed Lenz Effect" has nothing to do with Lenz's Law? 

Once again:  What you refer to as a delayed Lenz effect is ordinary Faraday induction.  Lenz's Law applies to all Faraday induction.  Lenz's Law specifies the direction of the induced EMF.  The direction is not subject to delay. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2014, 10:35:08 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2014, 11:32:59 AM »
No one can make heads nor tails out of anything you monkeys say. You grifters have been running a "Back Alley Shell and Pea Game" the enire time for your "Tar Sand" payolla group. Your're completely shameless about trying to dupe the learners. I refuse to let you get away with it.

What I need help with is to determine what effect magnets have on core viscosity and phase lag. All you three have done is side track this branch of research. Last year this time, Milehigh bombed in on my Conradelectro magnet core coil test and caused a serious problem. Nothing meaningfull has taken place in the meantime.
Synchro1 if you put away:  1) Junk like your first paragraph, and 2) Your preconceived ideas then it would be a lot easier to communicate a correct explanation to you of what is going on.  So in the spirit of the season:

Two effects that can cause a magnetic field to change in time are:  image currents, and magnetic viscosity.  Image currents, IE eddy currents create opposing magnetic fields.  If you had access to nifty expensive instruments you would be able to do things like map the time response of force in a magnetic actuator versus current in the exciting coil.  You would readily see that all the time that the current is changing in the coil and then for some time beyond that in cores where eddy currents can flow freely, there is a big lag in mechanical force.  You would see how insulated laminations greatly reduce the image currents and the lag.  Ways that you could see those effects without expensive instruments include simply measuring performance of a transformer that uses laminations, and then replacing that core with one machined from ingot iron.

The second effect:  magnetic viscosity expresses delay in the rotation of magnetic domains in ferromagnetic material when exposed to a change in external field.  Behaviorally this is very similar to what happens with image currents. 

In either case what you see from the outside is a lag in the strength and orientation of a magnetic field in the vicinity of high permeability material, IE ferromagnetic materials like iron, steel, nickle, cobalt etc.

To see if one could utilize this behavior for some purpose one needs to understand that things in this world fall into four categories:

1) Things that dissipate energy:  resistors, friction devices etc.  These are things that present a force that always opposes flow of current in the resistor case, or direction of motion in the case of friction. 

2) Things that store energy:  water columns, flywheels, springs, capacitors, inductors.  In the ideal case no stored energy is lost before it is transferred out of storage.

3) Things that convert energy:  electric motors, solar panels, combustion engines all convert energy from some source into a form more useful to the application.

4) The ever elusive OU or free energy thing.  This is something that either converts energy from a source yet to be recognized, or creates energy ex-nihilo. 

Induction devices of all kinds are a mix of 1) and 2).  The hope put forth for so called "Delayed Lenz Effect" devices is that by using phenomena that cause a time delay that BEMF can become forward EMF.  IOW that a changing magnetic field because it is routed through a delay can induce a current that will increase the strength of the field and cycle by cycle energy will build up leading to a vast surplus of energy. 

As long as the devices employed are limited to some combination of 1), and 2) such a scheme can never work.  Some amount of the source energy goes into and comes back out of storage 2), while some is dissipated 1).  Storage just holds some energy for some time and then gives it back.  It doesn't create the stuff.  It is a Japanese bank account.  Dissipation loses energy ultimately to waste heat.  Combine 1) and 2) in any combination that you like and you always end up with less than you started out with. 

Now, what can be done with storage is one can build resonant networks.  Resonant networks store energy by passing it back and forth from one stored form to another.  Resonant networks are energy storage devices.  The higher the Q of the network the greater the percentage of energy applied each cycle they retain.  High Q networks can accumulate energy for many, many cycles.  If unleashed all at once that can result in very high instant power levels, but power which operates only at a low duty cycle.  Total energy stored and ultimately released is still less than total energy input.

Using time delay to create a defacto resonance won't do what you want.  If you build a quarter wave delay in one direction then the resulting network looks like a short to the source:  A crest takes a quarter cycle to get to the end and bounce back, IE transfer little or no energy to the far end:  very high impedance.  By the time the crest returns to source, the source is now at a valley.  The difference between the crest and the valley is very large and lots of current flows.  The load looks like a short circuit.  And that is what quarter wave networks do:  present low impedance at one end and high impedance at the other.  If you double the length then you get a half wave network.  A half wave network returns the crest in phase with the next crest and bucks it:  presenting a high impedance.  If there are no losses along the path the transmission line takes virtually no energy from the source, and performs no work.  However if the far end takes energy the returning crest is smaller and energy passes into the transmission line as though the line is a transparent connection from the source end to the far end.

So, what you are hoping to find is 4).  There are a number of people who have proposed or claimed that energy can be coaxed out of the vacuum by various means.  Often they have suggested that exciting a resonant tank will make this happen.  In your case you hope like Steorn claimed that magnetic viscosity:  an energy loss mechanism can realize energy gain.  If you want to go looking for such a thing, be my guest. 

Online synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2014, 01:09:31 AM »
Synchro1 if you put away:  1) Junk like your first paragraph, and 2) Your preconceived ideas then it would be a lot easier to communicate a correct explanation to you of what is going on.  So in the spirit of the season:

Two effects that can cause a magnetic field to change in time are:  image currents, and magnetic viscosity.  Image currents, IE eddy currents create opposing magnetic fields.  If you had access to nifty expensive instruments you would be able to do things like map the time response of force in a magnetic actuator versus current in the exciting coil.  You would readily see that all the time that the current is changing in the coil and then for some time beyond that in cores where eddy currents can flow freely, there is a big lag in mechanical force.  You would see how insulated laminations greatly reduce the image currents and the lag.  Ways that you could see those effects without expensive instruments include simply measuring performance of a transformer that uses laminations, and then replacing that core with one machined from ingot iron.

The second effect:  magnetic viscosity expresses delay in the rotation of magnetic domains in ferromagnetic material when exposed to a change in external field.  Behaviorally this is very similar to what happens with image currents. 

In either case what you see from the outside is a lag in the strength and orientation of a magnetic field in the vicinity of high permeability material, IE ferromagnetic materials like iron, steel, nickle, cobalt etc.

To see if one could utilize this behavior for some purpose one needs to understand that things in this world fall into four categories:

1) Things that dissipate energy:  resistors, friction devices etc.  These are things that present a force that always opposes flow of current in the resistor case, or direction of motion in the case of friction. 

2) Things that store energy:  water columns, flywheels, springs, capacitors, inductors.  In the ideal case no stored energy is lost before it is transferred out of storage.

3) Things that convert energy:  electric motors, solar panels, combustion engines all convert energy from some source into a form more useful to the application.

4) The ever elusive OU or free energy thing.  This is something that either converts energy from a source yet to be recognized, or creates energy ex-nihilo. 

Induction devices of all kinds are a mix of 1) and 2).  The hope put forth for so called "Delayed Lenz Effect" devices is that by using phenomena that cause a time delay that BEMF can become forward EMF.  IOW that a changing magnetic field because it is routed through a delay can induce a current that will increase the strength of the field and cycle by cycle energy will build up leading to a vast surplus of energy. 

As long as the devices employed are limited to some combination of 1), and 2) such a scheme can never work.  Some amount of the source energy goes into and comes back out of storage 2), while some is dissipated 1).  Storage just holds some energy for some time and then gives it back.  It doesn't create the stuff.  It is a Japanese bank account.  Dissipation loses energy ultimately to waste heat.  Combine 1) and 2) in any combination that you like and you always end up with less than you started out with. 

Now, what can be done with storage is one can build resonant networks.  Resonant networks store energy by passing it back and forth from one stored form to another.  Resonant networks are energy storage devices.  The higher the Q of the network the greater the percentage of energy applied each cycle they retain.  High Q networks can accumulate energy for many, many cycles.  If unleashed all at once that can result in very high instant power levels, but power which operates only at a low duty cycle.  Total energy stored and ultimately released is still less than total energy input.

Using time delay to create a defacto resonance won't do what you want.  If you build a quarter wave delay in one direction then the resulting network looks like a short to the source:  A crest takes a quarter cycle to get to the end and bounce back, IE transfer little or no energy to the far end:  very high impedance.  By the time the crest returns to source, the source is now at a valley.  The difference between the crest and the valley is very large and lots of current flows.  The load looks like a short circuit.  And that is what quarter wave networks do:  present low impedance at one end and high impedance at the other.  If you double the length then you get a half wave network.  A half wave network returns the crest in phase with the next crest and bucks it:  presenting a high impedance.  If there are no losses along the path the transmission line takes virtually no energy from the source, and performs no work.  However if the far end takes energy the returning crest is smaller and energy passes into the transmission line as though the line is a transparent connection from the source end to the far end.

So, what you are hoping to find is 4).  There are a number of people who have proposed or claimed that energy can be coaxed out of the vacuum by various means.  Often they have suggested that exciting a resonant tank will make this happen.  In your case you hope like Steorn claimed that magnetic viscosity:  an energy loss mechanism can realize energy gain.  If you want to go looking for such a thing, be my guest.

This is nothing but complete horseshit!

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2014, 01:17:56 AM »


This is nothing but complete horseshit!



Is this a scientific term?  Care to offer an explanation of what you mean by this?

I am curious.

Are you still claiming that Lenz's law has nothing to do with "Delayed Lenz effect"?  How does the Lenz effect differ from Lenz's law?

On its face, this appears to make no sense to me, which is why I am asking.

Thanks,

Bill

Online synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #28 on: December 25, 2014, 11:41:29 PM »
Is this a scientific term?  Care to offer an explanation of what you mean by this?

I am curious.

Are you still claiming that Lenz's law has nothing to do with "Delayed Lenz effect"?  How does the Lenz effect differ from Lenz's law?

On its face, this appears to make no sense to me, which is why I am asking.

Thanks,

Bill

MarkE'S comment is too eclectic and obtuse to be of any value. He thinks too big. He's all over the map with a rambling comment that is completely directionless. All he's out to do is flummox people into thinking he's a top brain when he's just a phony punk. MarkE is guilty of "Free association". He can't stick to the point.

Offline minnie

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2014, 12:30:18 AM »



     synchro1,
              MarkE's a scientist and you're a skeptic. Interesting conflict, question is
  who will win?
                   John.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2014, 12:30:18 AM »

 

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