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Author Topic: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?  (Read 33158 times)

Offline MileHigh

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This is not a thread to be confrontational.  The purpose of this thread is to pick it up where it left off the other day without censorship when discussing technical matters.  Anybody is free to contribute but all of you should refrain from personal attacks and name calling.

Here is Luc's last posting:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hi everyone,

as promised here is a video demo with accurate input power measurements done by using a DC input to the Dremel (universal motor) instead of AC which is difficult to measure.
The power is supplied by a variac connected to a full wave bridge rectifier and a 1000uf DC capacitor to smooth the DC.

Link to video demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TKByKqLV0M

TEST RESULTS:

Input to Dremel on load is 60vdc @ 0.500ma = 30W
Input to Dremel off load is 60.3vdc @ 0.475ma = 28.64W

Power difference is 1.36W of extra power consumption by prime mover when coil is on load

Output is a 25 Ohm load @ 7.84vrms = 2.46W
then we subtract - 1.36W =  1.1W of gained power output which is not supplied by prime mover.


You may of noticed this is not the same coil as the first test since that one was not performing very well (too small), so I made a new one since the first one only had a half a watt gain and I was sure it would of been argued that it's just measurement error.
So I went trough the time, trouble and expense to make this new one so there's no second guessing.
Like I have said, a coil can be made to give more of this effect but more testing needs to be done to understand what are the ideal perimeters as I've seen coils with more gain then this new one but I think it's a good starting point.
A stronger magnet will also give more output. If someone is ready to pay for a larger 1" Diametrically Magnetized magnet, I'm ready to do the test: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX04X0DIA  please pm me and I'll send you a US address.

COIL INFORMATION:
Coil DC resistance is 2 Ohms.
Coil has 41.56mH with magnet pole in attraction to core and 49.42mH with magnet positioned between poles.
Coil is wound Bifilar but connected in parallel.
I tested the Capacitance between open wires strands and it is 38.46pf with magnet in attraction to core and 38.51pf with magnet between poles.
Coil wire (with enamel) measures 0.8mm and the core is a square Ferrite rod measuring 12mm x 12mm x 90mm long.
I can wind more turns on the coil at a later date to confirm if it give a boost in gain.

This was the first load test and more will be done to find the coils most efficient output (most watts out with minimum effect to prime mover).

Please share your thoughts as to what is contributing to this effect.

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2014, 09:29:18 PM »
Here are my comments:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Luc:

You saw an increased power draw when the generator coil is loaded.  Before you were insisting that there was no increased power draw.  You should try to account for your past errors and try to square them away with your readers.

Quote
Input to Dremel on load is 60vdc @ 0.500ma = 30W
Input to Dremel off load is 60.3vdc @ 0.475ma = 28.64W

Power difference is 1.36W of extra power consumption by prime mover when coil is on load

Output is a 25 Ohm load @ 7.84vrms = 2.46W
then we subtract - 1.36W =  1.1W of gained power output without affecting prime mover.

I hate to say it again but you are leading yourself down a garden path.  Also, you are making real measurements here, you should not be ignoring the resistance of the coil.  The coil capacitance measurement is also meaningless and has no affect and should not be considered.

Here are some issues that have to be factored in:  1) You have no idea what the efficiency of the Dremel is.  2) You have no idea if the efficiency of the Dremel will change under different supply voltages, loads and RPM.  3)  You are drawing a conclusion without having enough data to support the conclusion.  4)  You are not correctly relating the waste heat with the "payload" power that goes into the generator.

Here is your real data:

UNDER LOAD:

Input:  30 watts electrical

Generator output:  2.46 watts
Motor output:  27.54 watts heat
Total output:  30 watts

Note:  The motor heat output power is derived by subtracting the generator output power from the input electrical power.  That is how the power is split in your setup.

NO LOAD:

Input:  28.64 watts electrical

Motor output:  28.64 watts heat

The above is the real analysis of your data.  That's all that you can conclude from your experiment with the caveat that the heat dissipation in the coil windings was not accounted for.

Quote
Output is a 25 Ohm load @ 7.84vrms = 2.46W
then we subtract - 1.36W =  1.1W of gained power output without affecting prime mover.

The above calculation is an invalid calculation.  If you review what I wrote above this should become clear to you.

MileHigh


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2014, 09:33:04 PM »
I will just repeat:  The purpose of this thread is to have a technical discussion without any technical censorship at all.   There is no intention to be confrontational at all with this thread.   Personal attacks and abuse and demeaning comments and name calling are to be avoided.

As long as that is understood, people are free to say anything they want about the alleged "delayed Lenz effect."

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2014, 09:43:46 PM »
Here is a decent posting I made that I think is worth repeating:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Tinman:

In the first half of my posting I stated that my comments were geneic and not directed at anyone in particular.

Mark often makes great succinct technical arguments and makes graphics and I thank him for that.  Here is my version of a short summary of the issues:

1.  With a resistive load on the generator coil, there is no Lenz delay, it's simply impossible.

2.  With a capacitive or inductive reactive load then there is a Lenz drag during the charging phase and then a push when the reactive load discharges its stored energy for a net gain of zero (ignoring losses.)

3.  What has only been mentioned a few times is the "fake out" Lenz delay.  This is when the generator coil and load together dissipate less power when you are making the Lenz delay test as compared to the original configuration.  Less power dissipated by the generator coil + load equals a higher RPM for the rotor.  This is a no-brainer and many beginning experimenters simply failed to make these measurements.

4.  Changes to the mechanical and electrical configuration of the setup when doing a Lenz delay test can inadvertently change the overall average electrical impedance of the pulse motor and where the power flows in the system.  If the impedance goes down the current draw from the power supply will increase and most likely the rotor will speed up.  If the impedance goes up the current draw from the power supply will decrease and most likely the rotor will slow down.  That's what's taking place in the JLN clip that was linked to.  That is another "fake out" and you have to be on your toes to not hoodwink yourself.

When it comes to #4, you might make a change and the rotor speed will in increase by just a few percent.  Something like simply lowering the stresses on the main bearing while rotating at high RPM could cause an effect like this.

What's been happening over the past two years is that many amateur experimenters when working with their pulse motors will say "delayed Lenz effect" when they observe a speed up in the RPM for whatever reason.  They don't actually investigate the real reasons, they just use the blanket term "delayed Lenz effect" when they see a speed up and they are convinced that they have "replicated the effect."

As a generic shout out, guys and gals, you have to do better than this.  Working an investigation together might help where people encourage each other to get the right answers.  You have to think "outside of the box" and in this context thinking "outside of the box" actually means that you do a proper investigation using standard electronics principles and measurement techniques.  You all can do better if you work together and encourage each other to improve your craft.

MileHigh


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2014, 09:45:39 PM »
Here is a great technical posting bt MarkE that is also worth repeating:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anyone who believes in the idea of free energy from a "Lenz delay" should study the graphic below.

Lenz' Law sets the orientation of induced voltage resulting from Faraday induction.
If a load is resistive, induced current is in phase with induced voltage and the resulting magnetic field at all times acts directly against the inducing current.  This is a unity power factor.
If a load is purely reactive, then energy is stored in the load and later returned to the source, and no net energy conveys to the load.  This is a zero power factor.
If a load is resonant, then the inductive reactance and capacitive reactance magnitudes are equal.  The load appears resistive.  In the case of a series L-C, the resistance appears low.  In the case of a parallel L-C, the resistance appears very large.
If a load is partially resistive and partially reactive, then more energy transfers to the load each cycle than is returned.  This is a power factor greater than zero but less than one.

Can making a load reactive unload a driver?  Of course it can:  Less work is done on the load.  In the extreme case the load effectively disappears, along with any useful work that could have been done by transferring net energy to the load. 

Can making a load reactive actually drive the source?  Not net across one or more complete cycles.  A reactive load can only return less energy in any given cycle than supplied by the source.

Can resonance help?  No, at resonance, the load appears resistive as either an effective short circuit across the source, or an open circuit.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2014, 09:45:39 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2014, 02:46:29 AM »
I have to do a little bit of house cleaning here.

Luc is accusing me of being a liar.  I am no liar and Luc's statement is offensive to me and I will respond to it to set the record straight.

Quote
BTW,  please read my closing post of that topic which will once again confirm MileHigh has written an untruth "I don't acknowledge an error when it is pointed out to me"

You are using flawed logic Luc, like some political spin artist.  "Once again" is pure spin and it's a lie on your part.  The fact that you acknowledged an error in a posting to Poyny99 a year ago doesn't mean that you acknowledge some or all of your errors and the efforts that people put in to correct them and educate you.  It certainly doesn't make me a liar, that's ridiculous.  I have corrected your errors numerous times and often went to considerable effort to explain the reasoning and to educate you so you wouldn't make them again.  Many times you didn't acknowledge the error nor did you acknowledge the effort that was made on my part to correct you and teach you and that's wrong.

Example #1:

http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427963/#msg427963

Luc:
Quote
Humm (http://overunity.com/Smileys/default/undecided.gif) ... why do you keep writing unknown Inductance when I have already posted the DC Resistance and Inductance value?
http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg427939/#msg427939

MileHigh:
Quote
It's because the measured inductance of your generator coil and the unknown inductance are different things.  Some of the unknown inductance may be coming from the generator coil.

The generator coil is responding to the spinning magnet attached to the prime mover.  That turns the generator coil into an EMF source.  This is not the inductance and it does not act like an inductance.  It's an AC voltage source, a.k.a. an EMF source.  As an AC voltage source, it does not have the property of inductance.

So you had no idea that the generator coil was not the "unknown inductance."  You did not understand the difference between a coil acting like an active EMF source vs. a passive inductance.  That's a big deal, and you never acknowledged your mistake and my follow-up posting.

Example #2:

Just look at the fist two postings in this thread.  Your analysis of your test was all wrong and you thought that you had "1.1W of gained power output which is not supplied by prime mover" and nothing could be further from the truth.  My response to you took considerable effort and you have not acknowledged your error or the work I did to help you.

Bonus:

"New" information about the 25-ohm resistor vs. the 1-ohm resistor and if the load will affect the prime mover.

http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428583/#msg428583

Luc Dec 22:
Quote
The test was using a 25 Ohm load. Show me the post where I wrote a 25 Ohm load will have no increased in power draw.
Also, I was testing this with half the RPM and power input then the first test but it's clear to me now that you are not here to help a researcher as you have once again taken the first opportunity to try to discredit me and that I don't know what I'm doing.

You will not be able to support your written statement above and I'm no longer going to bother replying to your posts.

http://overunity.com/15289/delayed-lenz-or-not-post-your-explaination/msg428047/#msg428047

Luc Dec 17:
Quote
The Dremel is connected to a Kill-Watt power meter at all time to verify its power consumption.
The power meter has zero change when the coil is connected to the 1 and 12.5 Ohm load. There may be a half Watt increase (hard to tell) when the coil is connected to the 25 Ohm load but it's delivering 3.2 Watts. 
So the coil connected to the 25 Ohm load delivers 2.7 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.
and the coil connected to the 12.5 Ohm load delivers 2 Watts output at no power cost to the prime mover.

You note I backtracked and stated that you were only talking about the one-ohm load resistor not affecting the prime mover.  Of course saying it won't affect the prime mover is wrong.  Well it turns out just a few days ago you did state that the 25-ohm load would not affect the prime mover.  Of course that is wrong also and lo and behold, people are human and they don't have perfect memories.  That includes me and it includes you.

In summary, many times I have corrected your errors and have gone to considerable effort to explain why and to educate you.  You did not acknowledge your errors, nor the effort put in to help you, nor did you state to your audience how your reconciled this and how you would move forward with your testing.  I am expecting this to change from now on and see you show respect for my efforts and other people's efforts.  You can't "turn invisible" when you make a mistake, especially when you are making a presentation for your peers on the site and to the wider Internet audience.  You have to be real.

I am no liar, and I just gave you the real deal.

MileHigh

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2014, 04:58:10 AM »
MH:

I thank you for posting this information.  I also appreciate the drawings that Mark provided.  Even I can now see that Mr. Lenz is still there with us, sort of like gravity.  It appears that, at least for now, like gravity, we will be stuck with him.  It is one of those hurdles that we may never get over searching for something for nothing.  I will not say that there will never be a workaround, but for now at least,  I don't think we are there yet.

Thank you,

Bill

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2014, 04:58:10 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2014, 05:20:35 AM »
Bill:

Thanks for your comments.  Mark is very knowledgeable and he is a great example of using the power of proper scientific terminology and concepts to make his points.  I am a bit embarrassed when it comes to that because I can't do it myself.  Most, but not all, of what Mark discusses I am familiar with because I sat through the classes and did the labs but it was 30 years ago now.  Nor was I really a hard-core academic.  I actually went through a period of about 15 years where I stopped thinking about electronics altogether.  So although most of the time I have a good sense of what is going on, I sometimes struggle with expressing myself properly and understanding things.  For people that are real keeners, they should be reading Mark and Googling at the same time.

Anyway, between my "meat and potatoes" approach and with the help of Mark and others, the real deal about the alleged "delayed Lenz effect" will hopefully be clarified for the vast majority of the experimenters.  I view the delayed Lenz effect to be almost like a virus.  Just like for a few years people were doing CFL projects and stating that "power is coming up from the ground."

One possibility would be to look at setups where people believe that they are manifesting the delayed Lenz effect.  They can present their data here and we can collectively examine it.  If that actually happened you can expect that all of the setups will be explainable using conventional electronics concepts with no undefined "delayed Lenz effect" in sight.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2014, 05:08:32 PM »
Challenge to all of you:

If you think you have a setup that shows the "delayed Lenz effect" then post your information here and let's discuss it.

Requirements:

1.  Explain exactly and precisely what you mean by the "delayed Lenz effect."
2.  Document your setup with measurements and scope shots showing your data and explaining where the "delayed Lenz effect" is manifesting itself in your setup.

Note:  You can't just show a scope waveform.  You actually have to discuss the details in the scope waveform and explain it.

That's the deal.  Just running a pulse motor and changing the load resistor on a generator coil and observing a speed increase of the rotor and saying, "delayed Lenz effect" will not cut it.  You actually have to show measurements and explain why it is an alleged "delayed Lenz effect."

The issue is that for years now forum members have been talking about the "delayed Lenz effect" as if it were real without even defining it.  It has been used as a catch-all term and it is meaningless.  If you use the term "delayed Lenz effect" when you talk about your setups you are just hurting yourself and preventing yourselves from learning.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2014, 05:43:48 PM »
One thing that I think is happening is that most of the devices and circuits that are supposed to show the effects that are attributed to DLE are actually so inefficient that the usual tests might be just "running on inefficiency" if you know what I mean.

My "garden hose" example tries to illustrate what I mean. Say you are in the back yard with your garden hose, on full blast, and you have a sensitive flowmeter attached to the nozzle. You're spraying your garden, the sidewalk, over the fence etc. like mad, at full power, and you take a reading on the flowmeter. Now someone comes along with a bucket and collects some of the overspray. Does the flowmeter reading change? Of course it doesn't. Now the person pours the water in the bucket onto the garden where it belongs... so you are getting more water to the garden than before. Does the flowmeter reading change?
Get it? Running on inefficiency.

There is a belief, it seems, that simply shorting an output coil provides the "heaviest" load on a generator system. This may not be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2014, 05:43:48 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2014, 05:55:58 PM »
Here is a great technical posting bt MarkE that is also worth repeating:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Anyone who believes in the idea of free energy from a "Lenz delay" should study the graphic below.

Lenz' Law sets the orientation of induced voltage resulting from Faraday induction.
If a load is resistive, induced current is in phase with induced voltage and the resulting magnetic field at all times acts directly against the inducing current.  This is a unity power factor.
If a load is purely reactive, then energy is stored in the load and later returned to the source, and no net energy conveys to the load.  This is a zero power factor.
If a load is resonant, then the inductive reactance and capacitive reactance magnitudes are equal.  The load appears resistive.  In the case of a series L-C, the resistance appears low.  In the case of a parallel L-C, the resistance appears very large.
If a load is partially resistive and partially reactive, then more energy transfers to the load each cycle than is returned.  This is a power factor greater than zero but less than one.

Can making a load reactive unload a driver?  Of course it can:  Less work is done on the load.  In the extreme case the load effectively disappears, along with any useful work that could have been done by transferring net energy to the load. 

Can making a load reactive actually drive the source?  Not net across one or more complete cycles.  A reactive load can only return less energy in any given cycle than supplied by the source.

Can resonance help?  No, at resonance, the load appears resistive as either an effective short circuit across the source, or an open circuit.

Your "Lenz Delay Fallacy" diagram is just an abstract schematic that has nothing to do with magnetizem or "Phase Lag in Core Material". DLE has nothing at all to do with electricty floiwng through a conductor and is strictly an effect of Magnetizem.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2014, 06:03:38 PM »
One thing that I think is happening is that most of the devices and circuits that are supposed to show the effects that are attributed to DLE are actually so inefficient that the usual tests might be just "running on inefficiency" if you know what I mean.

My "garden hose" example tries to illustrate what I mean. Say you are in the back yard with your garden hose, on full blast, and you have a sensitive flowmeter attached to the nozzle. You're spraying your garden, the sidewalk, over the fence etc. like mad, at full power, and you take a reading on the flowmeter. Now someone comes along with a bucket and collects some of the overspray. Does the flowmeter reading change? Of course it doesn't. Now the person pours the water in the bucket onto the garden where it belongs... so you are getting more water to the garden than before. Does the flowmeter reading change?
Get it? Running on inefficiency.

There is a belief, it seems, that simply shorting an output coil provides the "heaviest" load on a generator system. This may not be true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_transfer_theorem

Gotoluc's latest tests involved a resistive load, not coil shorting. The greater the load the closer it is to a dead short. A dead short can also be compared to an infinite capacitor.


Offline MarkE

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2014, 06:03:57 PM »
This is just an abstract schematic that has nothing to do with magnetizem or "Phase Lag in Core Material". DLE has nothing at all to do with electricty floiwng through an conductor and is strictly an effect of Magnetizem.
Synchro1 you keep repeating this claim.  The claim is false.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/farlaw.html
Quote
Quote
Lenz's Law

When an emf is generated by a change in magnetic flux according to Faraday's Law, the polarity of the induced emf is such that it produces a current whose magnetic field opposes the change which produces it. The induced magnetic field inside any loop of wire always acts to keep the magnetic flux in the loop constant. In the examples below, if the B field is increasing, the induced field acts in opposition to it. If it is decreasing, the induced field acts in the direction of the applied field to try to keep it constant.

Induction is an electromagnetic phenomenon.
As seen above induction is necessary in order to have a situation where Lenz' Law is applicable.
Ergo Lenz' Law describes an aspect of an electromagnetic phenomenon.
Ergo any reference to Lenz must reference electromagnetics.

This is very fundamental.  There is no give.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2014, 06:09:13 PM »
Gotoluc's latest tests involved a resistive load, not coil shorting. The greater the load the closer it is to a dead short. A dead short can also be compared to an infinite capacitor.
You have just shown that you do not get the point of my comment at all. Please read the power transfer theorem page that I linked.


Offline synchro1

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Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2014, 06:14:59 PM »
Here are my comments:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

Luc:

You saw an increased power draw when the generator coil is loaded.  Before you were insisting that there was no increased power draw.  You should try to account for your past errors and try to square them away with your readers.

I hate to say it again but you are leading yourself down a garden path.  Also, you are making real measurements here, you should not be ignoring the resistance of the coil.  The coil capacitance measurement is also meaningless and has no affect and should not be considered.

Here are some issues that have to be factored in:  1) You have no idea what the efficiency of the Dremel is.  2) You have no idea if the efficiency of the Dremel will change under different supply voltages, loads and RPM.  3)  You are drawing a conclusion without having enough data to support the conclusion.  4)  You are not correctly relating the waste heat with the "payload" power that goes into the generator.

Here is your real data:

UNDER LOAD:

Input:  30 watts electrical

Generator output:  2.46 watts
Motor output:  27.54 watts heat
Total output:  30 watts

Note:  The motor heat output power is derived by subtracting the generator output power from the input electrical power.  That is how the power is split in your setup.

NO LOAD:

Input:  28.64 watts electrical

Motor output:  28.64 watts heat

The above is the real analysis of your data.  That's all that you can conclude from your experiment with the caveat that the heat dissipation in the coil windings was not accounted for.

The above calculation is an invalid calculation.  If you review what I wrote above this should become clear to you.

MileHigh

You can't use the 1.36 watts to factor a heat loss. This value needs to be converted to "negative microhenries" and results in cooling.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Reboot: Is the "delayed Lenz effect" real or just a misunderstanding?
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2014, 06:14:59 PM »

 

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