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Author Topic: Lenz free generator  (Read 160056 times)

Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 09:06:09 AM »
Here is one possible conclusion to the observation being made (which would be the piston system):

Hi dieter :)

If I understand correctly, in your last drawing on the right hand side, it is suggested that if we bring the coil down to the magnet, we will not face the lenz resistance! Am I right? Well, when it comes to coils, I think we should forget the Lorenz force and see the solenoid as a magnet with similar pole which will be facing a resistance when its coming anywhere near to a magnet. This vide helped me a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FXPmYGIOs4

So I think whether we come down on the magnet or come to it from left or right, we will face the Lenz's law anyways :) From what I have seen, a single wire behaves very different than a closed lope (such as coil or a copper plate) when brought into a magnetic filed.

BR
Sam 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 09:06:09 AM »

Offline dieter

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2014, 10:34:33 PM »
When it comes to coils we should forget the Lorentz force?? Are you serious? Lenz'law is all about the Lorentz force. People say Lenzfree but they mean Lorentzfree.
After all a coil is made of a wire. Where did that force go?


Peace

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2014, 01:15:21 PM »
When it comes to coils we should forget the Lorentz force?? Are you serious? Lenz'law is all about the Lorentz force. People say Lenzfree but they mean Lorentzfree.
After all a coil is made of a wire. Where did that force go?


Peace

Hi dieter :)
After I say this, you are gonna hate me, but please let me know if you think I am wrong :D
In the following pic, in section A, we can see what Lorenz force predicts what will happen to the current carrying wire (current going away from us). Lorenz says that wire just moves towards right hand side of the magnet and moves away from it. But when ever I test this, the wire first takes off from the surface of magnet and then will go towards the right hand side and then it will attach to the right edge of magnet and if you give it some space, it will go to equator of magnet.

In section B, Lorenz says that a current carrying wire (current is coming towards us) will move to the left hand side of magnet and goes away from magnetic filed, but again the same thing happens: First wire takes off from the surface of magnet and then goes to the equator of magnet on the left side.

In section C, we can see that the same wire is looped and when this happens the whole coil will take off from the surface of the magnet and as we say it, magnet "repels" the coil :)

So, yes, I think Lorenz force is wrong, at least it is not complete and when we deal with current carrying solenoids which are facing surface of a magnet , we should forget about the Lorenz force, because Lorenz doesn't explain what happens in this section. At least this is my understanding of what happens in here. I would very much appreciate if you could tell me what you think about all these :)

I think the upwards movement of wires (In section A for example) happen because of the resistance the wire faces when they tries to move to the right hand side of magnet. Same thing happens when in section B, wire tries to move towards the left hand side of magnet. It faces a resistance and moves upwards. This resistance becomes stronger when we have a coil on top of a magnet. Right wires try to go to left and left wires will try to go to right and they end up taking off from surface of magnet.

Best Regards
Sam

Offline dieter

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2014, 01:27:03 PM »
Ok, but imagine the solenoid diameter is 50% of that of the PM...


Peace


BTW. what you labeled Lorentz Force is not the official definition, but my revision.
Officially it is the force, that somehow magically opposes any mechanical force that drives a generators shaft.


Offline tinman

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2014, 01:33:04 PM »
Hi dieter :)
After I say this, you are gonna hate me, but please let me know if you think I am wrong :D
In the following pic, in section A, we can see what Lorenz force predicts what will happen to the current carrying wire (current going away from us). Lorenz says that wire just moves towards right hand side of the magnet and moves away from it. But when ever I test this, the wire first takes off from the surface of magnet and then will go towards the right hand side and then it will attach to the right edge of magnet and if you give it some space, it will go to equator of magnet.

In section B, Lorenz says that a current carrying wire (current is coming towards us) will move to the left hand side of magnet and goes away from magnetic filed, but again the same thing happens: First wire takes off from the surface of magnet and then goes to the equator of magnet on the left side.

In section C, we can see that the same wire is looped and when this happens the whole coil will take off from the surface of the magnet and as we say it, magnet "repels" the coil :)

So, yes, I think Lorenz force is wrong, at least it is not complete and when we deal with current carrying solenoids which are facing surface of a magnet , we should forget about the Lorenz force, because Lorenz doesn't explain what happens in this section. At least this is my understanding of what happens in here. I would very much appreciate if you could tell me what you think about all these :)

I think the upwards movement of wires (In section A for example) happen because of the resistance the wire faces when they tries to move to the right hand side of magnet. Same thing happens when in section B, wire tries to move towards the left hand side of magnet. It faces a resistance and moves upwards. This resistance becomes stronger when we have a coil on top of a magnet. Right wires try to go to left and left wires will try to go to right and they end up taking off from surface of magnet.

Best Regards
Sam
Turn your magnets 90*,and bobs ya uncle,all is well.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2014, 01:33:04 PM »
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Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2014, 02:21:13 PM »
Turn your magnets 90*,and bobs ya uncle,all is well.

Hi Tinman :) Thanks for commenting.
I have done the 90 degrees rotation of magnet with a single wire and the wire goes to the equator of magnet and stops there, but I have not done the test with solenoid and I don't have any of my stuff in here (I'm traveling now), but as soon as I get home, I test that also. But I think the solenoid will just try to rotate the magnet 90 degrees so S pole of magnet faces the N pole of solenoid :)

@dieter. Hi again :) I can not imagine ( I don't have the possibility to test right now, so I'm just assuming) any difference in outcome by changing the diameter of the coil :) 

Best Regards
Sam

Offline tinman

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2014, 03:00:53 PM »
Hi Tinman :) Thanks for commenting.
I have done the 90 degrees rotation of magnet with a single wire and the wire goes to the equator of magnet and stops there, but I have not done the test with solenoid and I don't have any of my stuff in here (I'm traveling now), but as soon as I get home, I test that also. But I think the solenoid will just try to rotate the magnet 90 degrees so S pole of magnet faces the N pole of solenoid :)

@dieter. Hi again :) I can not imagine ( I don't have the possibility to test right now, so I'm just assuming) any difference in outcome by changing the diameter of the coil :) 

Best Regards
Sam
It would help you out if you go read up on how the homopolar motor works. This will explain thing much better.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2014, 03:00:53 PM »
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Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2014, 05:22:07 PM »
It would help you out if you go read up on how the homopolar motor works. This will explain thing much better.

Actually I am familiar with homopolar motors and one of the next topic I was planing to share in here is about "N machine" or homopolar generator and discuss about why they generate high current and low voltage and how to increase their power output :)

Best Regards
Sam 

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2014, 05:39:57 PM »
I think the problem is that the field from the small magnets is not uniform and the test wires are experiencing this, since the magnet pole area is small. If you sketch out the "field lines" curving about the small magnet,  you will probably find that the wire moves just as predicted wrt to the actual geometry of the field. If you can arrange for a large, uniform field by stacking magnets side by side, or other configurations, you will probably be able to get rid of the "strange" motions of the wire and see that it does move just as predicted by the force law when in a uniform field.

Offline dieter

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2014, 02:13:26 AM »
Lii, it is not hard to imagine. Look at your drawing. How are the arrows 25% from the edge? Perfectly horizontal.


Although, I have made slightly diffrent observations with a coil and a small cylindrical magnet: the closer the magnet is to the edge, the more is the force horizontal. The closer the magnet is to the center of the coil, the more vertical is the force. As we have seen with the wire, this has nothing to do with the distance. There clearly IS a 90 deg shifting of the reaction. Instead of attraction to north and repulsion to south, we now see Attraction at the left edge of north and repulsion at the right edge of the same pole, or visa versa with a reverse current, and the same thing works with the south pole.


As I have already mentioned, this phenomenon can be seen only in gyroscopical recession.
Tinman, I'm afraid turning the PMs by 90° will nullify the induction efficiency.


TK, I don't think so and I highly reccommend you do this simple experiment personally right now.


Peace

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2014, 02:13:26 AM »
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Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2014, 08:59:54 PM »


Although, I have made slightly diffrent observations with a coil and a small cylindrical magnet: the closer the magnet is to the edge, the more is the force horizontal. The closer the magnet is to the center of the coil, the more vertical is the force. As we have seen with the wire, this has nothing to do with the distance. There clearly IS a 90 deg shifting of the reaction. Instead of attraction to north and repulsion to south, we now see Attraction at the left edge of north and repulsion at the right edge of the same pole, or visa versa with a reverse current, and the same thing works with the south pole.


As I have already mentioned, this phenomenon can be seen only in gyroscopical recession.


Hi dieter :)
You are very right my friend :) When magnet moved vertically towards the edge of a solenoid, the solenoid will move away from magnet horizontally! So much for " for every action there is equal and OPPOSITE reaction" :D Its absolutely a gyroscopic phenomenon!
I have been trying to think about this since morning and I will continue thinking about this. Something tells me we can find an interesting results by studying these effects :)

Best Regards
Sam

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2014, 09:37:51 PM »
Okay boys, let's bring out the big guns.

The answer is in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fbhcdS328c

In plain technical English, the force on the wire is the cross product of the direction the current is flowing in and the direction of the magnetic field.  That will cover every possible force phenomenon you observe when having a current-carrying wire interact with the magnetic field of a magnet.

It's universal, it will apply anywhere.  it explains the fantastic "Rodin coil as the next-generation high-fidelity speaker system" also.

In simple English, if the current is flowing in direction X, and the magnetic field is in direction Y, then the force will be in direction Z.  In other words, the force is at right angles to the direction of the wire and at right angles to the direction of the magnetic field, a la x-y-z.

Quote
Its absolutely a gyroscopic phenomenon!

Whoops!  I don't think so, just look at the clip.


Offline broli

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2014, 09:54:16 PM »
Okay boys, let's bring out the big guns.

The answer is in this clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fbhcdS328c

In plain technical English, the force on the wire is the cross product of the direction the current is flowing in and the direction of the magnetic field.  That will cover every possible force phenomenon you observe when having a current-carrying wire interact with the magnetic field of a magnet.

It's universal, it will apply anywhere.  it explains the fantastic "Rodin coil as the next-generation high-fidelity speaker system" also.

In simple English, if the current is flowing in direction X, and the magnetic field is in direction Y, then the force will be in direction Z.  In other words, the force is at right angles to the direction of the wire and at right angles to the direction of the magnetic field, a la x-y-z.

Whoops!  I don't think so, just look at the clip.

Not everybody necessarily agrees with that point of view. Here's one person who doesn for example: https://www.youtube.com/user/rdistinti

He makes equally good video presentations. I dare you to play the whole playlist (but I doubt you will :) ).

Offline life is illusion

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2014, 10:09:22 PM »
Not everybody necessarily agrees with that point of view. Here's one person who doesn for example: https://www.youtube.com/user/rdistinti

He makes equally good video presentations. I dare you to play the whole playlist (but I doubt you will :) ).
Hello :)

I can not thank you enough for sharing the youtube channel. I am already in love with the guy :)

Best Regards
Sam

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2014, 10:20:48 PM »
Not everybody necessarily agrees with that point of view. Here's one person who doesn for example: https://www.youtube.com/user/rdistinti

He makes equally good video presentations. I dare you to play the whole playlist (but I doubt you will :) ).

I am looking at his channel and I don't see anything yet about the interaction between a current-carrying wire and a constant magnetic field.  I doubt that he discusses this or discusses the root explanation.  Assuming that I am correct, how do you know that he disagrees with what is taught in the clip I linked to?  Perhaps you are making a judgment too soon.

You notice in my clip he explains how an electric motor works.  Anybody could set up a simple experiment and verify that what is stated in the clip is true.  Make a little motor with some loops of wire and a pivot point.  Sit that on top of one of your bigger coils and put DC current through the coil.  Then put current through the loops of wire and confirm that the cross-product interaction takes place.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Lenz free generator
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2014, 10:20:48 PM »

 

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