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Author Topic: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.  (Read 4645 times)

Offline Fester

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HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« on: December 15, 2014, 05:24:14 PM »
I have been researching for a while now on the HHO question. Being a car guy, there are several things that do not agree with me about HHO set ups.

I think most of the sites promoting HHO are scams. They do not follow conventional wisdom for engine dynamics for the most part. creating electricity from an alternator is highly inefficient to begin with. At the same time, work is robbed from the engine itself to create even less efficient energy. The best analogy would be a supercharger. While it could provide benefit, robbing peter to pay paul isnt the best way to accomplish things.

Turbocharging has proven to be a more efficient enhancer to an engine. Using waste heat/gasses to get more from the engine. I have yet to see anyone hook and alternater or a real generator to the exhaust side of the turbo for electrical generation.

Digging through the web I have found a few claims. The first being that based on flash point, hydrogen has an "effective" octane rating of about 50. this is not a very good thing. However based on its burn characteristics it acts like a high octane fuel burning. If this is true, then this is great for an engine. This would allow someone to raise the compression ratio of the engine to get more power out of it, replacing the loss fromm a inferior fuel in terms of btu's.

What i dont see from the web is the effects of adding "pure" O2 to the engine. the best analogy for this is using NO2 for a power addder.  I have viewed some claims that the added O2 does reduce the NOx emissions.

My mechanical mind thinks the whole HHO thing is doable,with a specific engine designed for it. however it will not replace gas(petrol).

I think anyone serious about HHO for their vehicle would have to first dyno an oem vehicle. Create/ install the turbo generator mod. dyno vehicle again.
The dyno results would have to show one thing- the same peak torque at the same rpm as the oem set up ( tuned for a lesser gas consumption in the fuel delivery system).  an obvious margin would have to be acceptable. But at that point the margin could be diminished by raising the compression in the cylinder, this could make up for the acceptable power loss.

the dyno results would be the deal breaker for the current work robbing systems people use. Current systems out there reduced the efficiency from the start. the only issue with the turbo style generation i can see is when gas is cut from the system the expanded gases(exhaust) dynamics change. this could produce a diminishing returns effect, basically confirming the law of thermodynamics.

In a nutshell the best analogy i can come up with is a reversed forced induction of an engine. Ford is doing this now. By using forced induction they are getting more HP from smaller displacement engines. HHO research seems to be akin to this but different. Using waste energy to create fuel, to make a large displacement engine use to fuel of a smaller displacement.

the turbo generator presents a few challenges on its own. Making a generator that can live at 10k plus rpms, or getting a turbo way oversized for the engine to reduce its rpms. All while trying to manage torque from the turbine to the generator. I would think if it could be done the automotive industry would have done it already to free the engine of its electrical energy robbing equipment.

Awesome? Crazy? Discuss.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Madeo

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Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2014, 06:23:50 PM »
I have done simple experiments with HHO before,  but the gas itself explodes (often with tremendous force) when fire is introduced.  I realized this can't be good for the current engine designs. Gasoline burns/ignite, but it doesn't explode like HHO. If HHO is used to fuel engines today,  I wouldn't be surprised people would have problems with engine knocking... etc.

However,  some people theorized that by introducing droplets of water would provide most of the heavy lifting instead of the HHO gas itself. The water droplets at that pressure and temperature would expand (flash steam) like what they are doing with some of the GEET setups. Theoretically, the amount of HHO gas required would be minimal.

I really believe HHO as a replacement fuel is possible, but it is currently beyond my expertise.  GEET is doable.   :)
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 02:11:19 AM by Madeo »


Offline Fester

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Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2014, 06:00:33 AM »
 I would have to say when replacing a hypothetical 10% or less of the gasoline with a faster burning fuel, the mixture would give a median result. As to say, it wouldnt ruin the slow burn properties of gasoline. Diminish yes, but not totally.  How much can be replaced? I dont know.

there is no mechanical advantage i know of that steam can create better than gasoline. steam is less efficient.  Water injection is used on high compression motors for knock control during compression.

Something else i thought of at work tonight. A turbo/turbine as the driver for the generator, is by nature variable. As engine rpm increases so does the turbine, as well as the generator. Could have production level change with rpms.

Offline MarkE

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Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2014, 08:22:06 AM »
I would have to say when replacing a hypothetical 10% or less of the gasoline with a faster burning fuel, the mixture would give a median result. As to say, it wouldnt ruin the slow burn properties of gasoline. Diminish yes, but not totally.  How much can be replaced? I dont know.

there is no mechanical advantage i know of that steam can create better than gasoline. steam is less efficient.  Water injection is used on high compression motors for knock control during compression.

Something else i thought of at work tonight. A turbo/turbine as the driver for the generator, is by nature variable. As engine rpm increases so does the turbine, as well as the generator. Could have production level change with rpms.
Hydrogen burns much faster than gasoline, and burns at a leaner mixture than gasoline.  Both of those are advantages when one wants to run lean.  The ideal burn is one where the flame propagates just short of the speed of sound such that the pressure begins building just barely before TDC and is at its maximum from all of the fuel having burned by a bit after TDC.  Faster burn makes it easier to set the ignition closer and closer to TDC.  A slow burn forces much more compromise on how far to advance the timing to get mechanical advantage near the top of the power stroke versus added pumping effort at the end of the compression stroke.

HHO cleans up carbon deposits.  Adding a modest amount of HHO to an old engine will after a few weeks clean the engine up and that is helpful for pollution and economy.  The newer or better cared for the engine, the less advantage HHO offers.


Offline MarkE

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Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2014, 08:38:00 AM »
I have been researching for a while now on the HHO question. Being a car guy, there are several things that do not agree with me about HHO set ups.

I think most of the sites promoting HHO are scams. They do not follow conventional wisdom for engine dynamics for the most part. creating electricity from an alternator is highly inefficient to begin with. At the same time, work is robbed from the engine itself to create even less efficient energy. The best analogy would be a supercharger. While it could provide benefit, robbing peter to pay paul isnt the best way to accomplish things.

Turbocharging has proven to be a more efficient enhancer to an engine. Using waste heat/gasses to get more from the engine. I have yet to see anyone hook and alternater or a real generator to the exhaust side of the turbo for electrical generation.

Digging through the web I have found a few claims. The first being that based on flash point, hydrogen has an "effective" octane rating of about 50. this is not a very good thing. However based on its burn characteristics it acts like a high octane fuel burning. If this is true, then this is great for an engine. This would allow someone to raise the compression ratio of the engine to get more power out of it, replacing the loss fromm a inferior fuel in terms of btu's.

What i dont see from the web is the effects of adding "pure" O2 to the engine. the best analogy for this is using NO2 for a power addder.  I have viewed some claims that the added O2 does reduce the NOx emissions.

My mechanical mind thinks the whole HHO thing is doable,with a specific engine designed for it. however it will not replace gas(petrol).

I think anyone serious about HHO for their vehicle would have to first dyno an oem vehicle. Create/ install the turbo generator mod. dyno vehicle again.
The dyno results would have to show one thing- the same peak torque at the same rpm as the oem set up ( tuned for a lesser gas consumption in the fuel delivery system).  an obvious margin would have to be acceptable. But at that point the margin could be diminished by raising the compression in the cylinder, this could make up for the acceptable power loss.

the dyno results would be the deal breaker for the current work robbing systems people use. Current systems out there reduced the efficiency from the start. the only issue with the turbo style generation i can see is when gas is cut from the system the expanded gases(exhaust) dynamics change. this could produce a diminishing returns effect, basically confirming the law of thermodynamics.

In a nutshell the best analogy i can come up with is a reversed forced induction of an engine. Ford is doing this now. By using forced induction they are getting more HP from smaller displacement engines. HHO research seems to be akin to this but different. Using waste energy to create fuel, to make a large displacement engine use to fuel of a smaller displacement.

the turbo generator presents a few challenges on its own. Making a generator that can live at 10k plus rpms, or getting a turbo way oversized for the engine to reduce its rpms. All while trying to manage torque from the turbine to the generator. I would think if it could be done the automotive industry would have done it already to free the engine of its electrical energy robbing equipment.

Awesome? Crazy? Discuss.
I think the reason that you don't see turbo driven alternators is:  High cost to keep the magnetic material below its Curie temperature and the rectifier diodes cool, versus very limited expected benefit.  I think the reason that you don't see HHO in mass produced cars and trucks is that the benefits rapidly diminish if the engine is in good condition and computer controlled.

Controlling the alternator torque is easy to do.  The alternator performs a lot like a dynamometer brake.  Modulating the field winding or running a PWM on the output can provide fast and tight torque control. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2014, 08:38:00 AM »
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Offline Fester

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Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2014, 05:09:45 PM »
Good info Mark. Temps were the one thing that seemed would be difficult to control. The only way i have been able to come up with is to have a turbo set up as per normal. Instead of running the compressor side to the engine, run it to a single turbine that turns a generator/alternator. Adding more turbines reduces efficiency, and would drive the cost up. But it certainly would keep it cooler. Or devise a way to attach the generator to the pump side and let the pump draw a constant stream of fresh air through the generator( periodic cleaning ).

from time to time cummins 5.9 and some duramax turbos come across CL fairly cheap and needing rebuilt. I can visualize one side( or both) of a ford 5.0 trying to spool up the 5.9 turbo. It will never make to turbo see peak rpms, but it should be a able to pump to another turbine sized for more usable  rpms. Basically  a gas driven gear reduction, with losses.

I would think even with a newer engine, the benefits would still be there once fuel maps adjusted.

did some searching last night. Someone did a write up showing an 110 amp alternator steals 1.5HP. at 2000RPMS this translates into 4ft/lbs of torque. On a small displacement engine 4 ft/lbs is a good chunk of what they can produce at 2krpms.

Offline hartiberlin

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    • free energy research OverUnity.com
Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2015, 02:54:59 AM »
Some interesting videos about HHO usage and building HHO cells yourself:


Highly recommened is the new HHO Cell Builder DVD from
http://freefromfuel.com

I have the Germany Version and now it is available in English language and English Manual.
What is also great about it, that you also get an Online access to their website and thus can get
updates to the manual there via the online access, as soon as new progresses and uses
are reported and published online.
Highly recommended.
Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2015, 02:54:59 AM »
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Offline ATOM1

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Re: HHO some thoughts on how to make it work.
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2015, 01:19:54 PM »
Its a lot of fuss over a 20% gain ??? I got a better idea a totally free energy water powered car engine ....

I have a conversion piston electrolyser just need an engine I can blow up  haha for real ! it keeps the whole gas and electrolyte inside the system with a piston head on the top of the electrolyser ! You connect it to the piston of the car engine ! Why waste the water hahah .............

It has 3 methods by which convert the water to energy ......... UV exposure on the water heat high frequency DC magnetic field oscillator and basic vibration of the water from the piston ....... you just add cold water to the head of the new combustion chamber that is at the other end of the electrolyser to keep it at 400c ...

Its so powerful it can power a train a plane a lorry ect ect ....

who's got the bottle to to give it a go ???????? I want to race it !!!!!

ATOM1



 

 

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