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Author Topic: Vaccinations; recent developments  (Read 485915 times)

allcanadian

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #255 on: December 17, 2014, 08:24:43 PM »
@Sark
Quote
You are effectively saying it is impossible to generalize risk. By that logic
every bite you eat, every step you take (every move you make).  Would require
separate risk assessments.  Clearly you don't believe this. 
Now your getting it and yes obviously I do believe it because I said it. It is peculiar that most believe in a chaotic random universe and yet they still believe logic and statistics always apply. Clearly one cannot believe in both because they are in direct contradiction to one another and if something can go wrong it will as defined by Murphy's Law. Have you ever done everything right and still had it blow up in your face?, thats the universe teaching you a lesson in humility.
I imagine your one of those who believe it (random shit) will never happen to you, I mean the plane would be in a death spiral yards from the ground and you would be the one saying--- you know statistically speaking this cannot happen, in fact I can cite hundreds of references as why why this should not happen, in fact I don't believe it can happen, I think ...Splat !.
Insert unsubstantiated claim:
Quote
Polio does still exist, although polio cases have decreased by over 99% since
1988, from an estimated more than 350 000 cases to 416 reported cases in 2013.
This reduction is the result of the global effort to eradicate the disease.
Today, only 3 countries in the world have never stopped transmission of polio
(Nigeria, Pakistan and Afghanistan).
Quote
Now the question is, you've mentioned this several times in this thread.  I'm
willing to bet you've mentioned it to other people.  Are you going to go back
and give them the correct information that you were so very incompetent at
collecting?  Didn't think so.  It would be hard even if you wanted to.  Just
another reason why you should put the effort into refuting your own ideas before
you speak.
Your funny,  you have fabricated an imaginary scenario and probably even convinced yourself it may be true, in fact you may even believe it may have already happened...very strange. As I said I'm not fully convinced however if you could cite credible links of multiple independent third party studies which are actually relevant to this discussion then I would be happy to consider them. No unsubstantiated quotes please, I will need credible verifiable links if you could.
AC

sarkeizen

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #256 on: December 17, 2014, 08:52:20 PM »
Now your getting it and yes obviously I do believe it
It's kind of amusing that you want to go down this path.  I'm not sure if this is just your trollishness showing or if you've been cornered.
Anyway if there's absolutely no possibility of generalizing any risk. Then you can't consider any action safer than any other action because that is making a general statement about risk.  Clearly you don't believe this because...

i) You have already said that vaccines were riskier than the diseases they prevent.  That's generalizing risk.

ii) You also said you believe that people need to evaluate each type of vaccine individually.  I notice that you didn't say "every dose of the same vaccine".  Clearly you believe you can generalize risk across doses.  You also didn't include doctors, horoscopes and weather conditions because you really don't want to get that tetanus shot when Venus is in the house of Mars.

Everybody who takes an action likely believes you can bound (generalize) risk. All you appear to be doing is making up a set of special exceptions so you can preserve your silly beliefs.
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Insert unsubstantiated claim:
What unsubstantiated claim?  Are you saying you don't believe that is from the WHO Q&A on Polio?
Quote
you have fabricated an imaginary scenario
What scenario?  That you think the WHO says polio doesn't exist?  You said that right here:
is just a little bit different than contracting polio which WHO has stated no longer exists on this planet.
Quote
however if you could cite credible links of multiple independent third party studies which are actually relevant to this discussion then I would be happy to consider them. No unsubstantiated quotes please, I will need credible verifiable links if you could.
As I said, I'm happy to provide references and support for any specific thing you can name as unsubstantiated.  However you notice that you haven't really mentioned a specific thing.  :) Either the WHO says currently that polio doesn't exist or it does.  It's website says it does.  Would you like a link to the specific page?  http://lmgtfy.com/?q=who+polio+q%26a
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 02:02:18 AM by sarkeizen »

MarkE

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #257 on: December 18, 2014, 09:23:02 AM »
@Mark EOh dear here we go, lol,  the "same logic" argument never actually did work for me. Let me guess, if I say yes I'm a hypocrite and if I say no I'm irresponsible however I'm going to choose option C which is that every vaccine has it's own risk assessment... they are not all the same. It's like flying on a jet and trying to justify the risks by thinking it is know technology and perfectly safe and it is however the actual risk is based on the competency of that technician who replaced those rivets in the wing section last week, the fight he had with his wife the night prior and how much he drank after that which effected his performance. In which case the "same logic" same airplane, same physics, same statistics model simply does not apply because it did not include that drunk technician who just inadvertently killed everyone. You see the risks are conditional and change the moment you enter the cause and effect loop unless you opt out or change the conditions.
All of my family has had a tetanus shot however I would think you would agree the risk of stepping on a rusty nail is just a little bit different than contracting polio which WHO has stated no longer exists on this planet. The risks concerning every vaccine, every drug should be weighed carefully because obviously they are not all the same.
AC
AC there is no trick to my questions.  You say that out of concern for the welfare for your children you have not had them vaccinated.  If that decision was a well informed one or not depends entirely on what diligence you exercised in the course of reaching it.  I am asking you to identify the basis of your diligence. 

Certainly if you feel justified in your stated actions and would like to influence other caring families to enjoy the same benefits you claim you have bestowed upon your children, showing that you based those decisions on sound data would be a public service.  If as you say each vaccine has its own risk assessment, implying that you would allow your children to receive certain vaccines and not others, then identifying which vaccines you have or would allow and which you would not would also be important. 

Polio is still very much on this planet and the WHO is in a state of alarm about it.  The WHO had hoped to see worldwide eradication of polio infections by 2018.  Problems in certain countries now have the WHO very alarmed that polio will spread.  See:  http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/statements/2014/polio-20140505/en/. The ways to prevent polio from spreading is two fold:  Better sanitation and as close to 100% vaccination of the population as possible. 







MileHigh

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #258 on: December 18, 2014, 03:11:50 PM »
The bottom line in this debate is that vaccinations are a net plus for society and they serve the common good.  Anybody with ordinary common sense should realize this.  Just like if you have ordinary common sense you should know that your body is resilient enough to handle trace amounts of all sorts of toxic substances, and any toxic substance below a certain dosage threshold is essentially harmless.  The nonsensical panic and doom-saying about the mercury compounds to keep vaccinations bacteria-free come to mind.

Another thing for people with common sense:  I glanced at many of the links put up by the anti-vaccination crowd and the web pages are almost always "alternative tabloid trash" web sites.  The kinds of web sites that sell magnetic belts and "structured water" and other junk like that.

There is also something "nasty" (for lack of a better term) that the anti-vaccination crowd may have not addressed:  You have a responsibility to your fellow man to try to not catch dangerous communicable diseases and put others around you, or the whole population,  at risk.  They don't want to deal with the fact that their selfish actions could be harmful to others.

Here is a hypothetical scenario:  The anti-vaccination crowd wins out and 20 years from now, 3/4 of children are not vaccinated.  Then a really nasty measles or mumps virus spreads like wildfire among adolescents because nobody has immunity.   Thousands and thousands of adolescents die, schools are shut down, the medical system is overstressed, etc, etc.

If that happened where would the anti-vaccination crowd be?   I can bet you that they will be demonstrating against the government and demanding compensation.  They will claim that "the government must have known" they were stupid and misguided, and therefore it's the government's fault for not "correcting" the problem in the first place.  "Yes I was a stupid idiot and my children got really sick.  I demand that the government compensate me for my stupidity because they should have known better!"

Meanwhile, real people are unethical and also make grave mistakes in the pharmaceutical inductry.   Look, a shocker, your tax dollars at work to fix a very serious problem where the responsible people should go to prison:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/17/us/meningitis-outbreak-arrests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Use your own common sense to weed out and ignore the people that clearly have no common sense.

MileHigh

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #259 on: December 18, 2014, 03:46:06 PM »
If anybody wants to be "protected" that is their decision to make...if I want to die of a vaccine driven epidemic that is my decision to make as a sovereign being.

And never the twain shall meet...so to speak.

If you are vaccinated then what us sane people do shouldn't be of concern...shood it ?

In the end, natural selection will win out.

I'm comfortable with my position.

Regards...

MarkE

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #260 on: December 18, 2014, 03:58:20 PM »
The bottom line in this debate is that vaccinations are a net plus for society and they serve the common good.  Anybody with ordinary common sense should realize this.  Just like if you have ordinary common sense you should know that your body is resilient enough to handle trace amounts of all sorts of toxic substances, and any toxic substance below a certain dosage threshold is essentially harmless.  The nonsensical panic and doom-saying about the mercury compounds to keep vaccinations bacteria-free come to mind.

Another thing for people with common sense:  I glanced at many of the links put up by the anti-vaccination crowd and the web pages are almost always "alternative tabloid trash" web sites.  The kinds of web sites that sell magnetic belts and "structured water" and other junk like that.

There is also something "nasty" (for lack of a better term) that the anti-vaccination crowd may have not addressed:  You have a responsibility to your fellow man to try to not catch dangerous communicable diseases and put others around you, or the whole population,  at risk.  They don't want to deal with the fact that their selfish actions could be harmful to others.

Here is a hypothetical scenario:  The anti-vaccination crowd wins out and 20 years from now, 3/4 of children are not vaccinated.  Then a really nasty measles or mumps virus spreads like wildfire among adolescents because nobody has immunity.   Thousands and thousands of adolescents die, schools are shut down, the medical system is overstressed, etc, etc.

If that happened where would the anti-vaccination crowd be?   I can bet you that they will be demonstrating against the government and demanding compensation.  They will claim that "the government must have known" they were stupid and misguided, and therefore it's the government's fault for not "correcting" the problem in the first place.  "Yes I was a stupid idiot and my children got really sick.  I demand that the government compensate me for my stupidity because they should have known better!"

Meanwhile, real people are unethical and also make grave mistakes in the pharmaceutical inductry.   Look, a shocker, your tax dollars at work to fix a very serious problem where the responsible people should go to prison:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/17/us/meningitis-outbreak-arrests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Use your own common sense to weed out and ignore the people that clearly have no common sense.

MileHigh
What happened at NECC is an example of the kinds of results "Don't regulate" brings about.  NECC created straw patients so that they could compound "for them", when what they were really doing was selling wholesale.  They used the exemptions for small compounding pharmacies to avoid the expense and hassle of running a proper laboratory.  Now that they've been busted, maybe they'll go into compounding herbal remedies, like Mother's Nourishing Morning Glory Milk.

sarkeizen

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #261 on: December 18, 2014, 04:13:32 PM »
If you are vaccinated then what us sane people do shouldn't be of concern...shood it ?
Depends.  Vaccines are not 100% effective and while they are very, very, very safe.  There is a tiny risk.  If a disease is eradicated (like polio will hopefully be).  It makes sense to stop vaccination.  As long as people like you are in the tiny minority and well distributed throughout society.  I don't have a problem with you being unvaccinated.   Immunocompromised people might want to push you in front of a bus though.
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In the end, natural selection will win out.
Actually natural selection only affects heritable traits.  While there might be some knowledge transfer from parent to child about getting vaccinated there's still plenty of room for disinformation from people like you to influence folk.  Even if we assume an advantage to being vaccinated as I mention above.  In a minority position the unvaccinated are, protected by those who are.  Given both those things it's not that likely that selection will occur and even if it does it will take an enormously long time and of course many entirely needless deaths to accomplish this.
Quote
I'm comfortable with my position.
Because you are an idiot. :)

sarkeizen

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #262 on: December 18, 2014, 04:59:20 PM »
What happened at NECC is an example of the kinds of results "Don't regulate" brings about.  NECC created straw patients so that they could compound "for them", when what they were really doing was selling wholesale.  They used the exemptions for small compounding pharmacies to avoid the expense and hassle of running a proper laboratory.  Now that they've been busted, maybe they'll go into compounding herbal remedies, like Mother's Nourishing Morning Glory Milk.
That's terribly sad.  Compounding pharms do have risks and probably need better regulation.  That said they are pretty useful.

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #263 on: December 18, 2014, 05:28:54 PM »
Because you are an idiot. :)

T'is better to be called an idiot by a fraudster and a troll than a vaccination statistic.

Regards...

*waits for fraudster to alter more text*


sarkeizen

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #264 on: December 18, 2014, 06:48:45 PM »
*waits for fraudster to alter more text*
What text have I altered that you're so very concerned about?  Please provide exact quotes. :)

starcruiser

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #265 on: December 18, 2014, 07:02:12 PM »
   Sarkeizen a Feminazi, at least what the name implies. Go back to your gamergate and whatever, you are not wanted here.

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #266 on: December 18, 2014, 07:07:36 PM »

How trollish and in keeping with the CDC's standard of deceit that he wood demand proof...after he already edited out the text he altered.

I didn't bother to keep a screenshot of what the CDC troll altered...his admission is still there though...unless he edited that out also.

Maybe he shood consult the forum's official ass kisser/bag licker/bumboy has a kept copy, along with my egregious grammatical faux pas's.

Regards...


Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #267 on: December 18, 2014, 07:11:28 PM »
   Sarkeizen a Feminazi, at least what the name implies. Go back to your gamergate and whatever, you are not wanted here.

Now, if I were a betting man..I wood bet that the odds are slim that I can make this post before the troll responds again.

Regards...


Cap-Z-ro

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #268 on: December 18, 2014, 07:12:50 PM »
I did it !!!

I beat the troll spread.

*rushes out to buy lotto ticket*


sarkeizen

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Re: Vaccinations; recent developments
« Reply #269 on: December 18, 2014, 07:26:31 PM »
after he already edited out the text he altered.
Ok...so your claim is that I altered some of your text and then changed it back.  Are you sure you didn't just imagine this?
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I didn't bother to keep a screenshot of what the CDC troll altered...his admission is still there though...unless he edited that out also.
Please point me to the "admission" post?