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Author Topic: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?  (Read 41143 times)

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2014, 08:17:46 PM »
Nice did you stick it on a sessaw and see if it would balance ?
No but I'm sure it could be made to do so.

One thing that may not be obvious is that it would not work with a simple bar magnet in there. The magnets stuck onto the rod ends are oriented like this:

N:S===[[[[[coil]]]]]]===S:N

So that the  coil always attracts from one side and repels from the other side. When the coil reverses polarity, the attraction/repulsion sides swap ends.

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Offline Nink

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2014, 02:23:26 AM »
I could only find one hall sensor so I had to improvise so a small magnet retracts the other magnet when the power is cut and then power restored electric magnet is stronger than small magnet so pushes out again. Needs tweaking.     https://vine.co/v/Ovz6zaVI7Yu

I guess back to the original problem how do you levitate,  There are a bunch of circuits on line to levitate from above using hall or photo sensors http://www.electroschematics.com/6306/magnetic-levitation-circuit/  but not from below.  I think maybe 3 or 4 hall switches coils and permanent magnets.... anyone given this any thought ?


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2014, 03:09:00 AM »
Nink:

They way we think the electronic levitron might work is using a circuit like TK has made...then use 2 photo sensors and 2 light sources aimed at the bottom of the levitating disk.  Also, there seems to be an array of perma mags situated around the base to keep the disk from sliding off to one side or the other.

I believe TK has broken this "secret" wide open by postulating that an electromagnet was being controlled by sensors and was switching polarity such that, it keeps the floating magnet disk...floating.  Then he built that circuit in his videos demonstrating how it could be done.  I think his "Jumping disk magnet" video shows clearly how this could work.

We know that there are permanent magnets involved in the base as evidenced by when the device is placed on its edge in the video and the disk continues to hover in place.

I think it would be cool if we started seeing homebrewed hovering devices popping up on the web.

Bill

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2014, 03:10:29 AM »
Quote
"anyone given this any thought?"

I'd bet these guys have....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gMMM62NC-4

And considering the efficiency gains and economy of the Fe16N2 magnets being constructed, which have proven appreciably stronger than the former theoretical limit, dramatic changes across the board are afoot....

http://phys.org/news188458077.html



Good Journies


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2014, 03:15:21 AM »
I'd bet these guys have....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gMMM62NC-4

And considering the efficiency gains and economy of the Fe16N2 magnets being constructed, which have proven appreciably stronger than the former theoretical limit, dramatic changes across the board are afoot....

http://phys.org/news188458077.html



Good Journies

Wow!  Excellent find! (ref. the first video link)  This is exactly the type of device being discussed here except, this one looks better and able to hover much, much heavier weights.  Totally cool...it is getting better and better.

Thanks for posting this.

Bill

PS  Here is the site of the folks that make this cool device: http://www.crealev.com/
They seem to make a lot of other related stuff too.  I did not see a price for this...I get the feeling that they do custom stuff for branding, trade shows, etc.  I wonder if this violates the Levitron Patent?  Or, are they licensed under it maybe?  Or, since it is so much better, maybe have their own patent?

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2014, 03:15:21 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2014, 03:31:01 AM »
CLM 1.5 Levitation Module (floating height max 70 mm) The CLM 1.5 is the long awaited module between the heavy lifting CLM 2 and the workhorse that is the CLM 1+. It’s featuring levitation height of approximately 70 mm and is capable of carrying loads up to 4 kg, and is brand new for 2014!  The CLM 1.5 is  providing a cost effective alternative to the CLM 2 for the heavier projects. Although some characteristics are new, it still boasts all the quality one can expect from our modules. Equipped with overheating protection and based on our field-proven durable levitation technology, the CLM 1.5 is a robust and easy to use system. It has an unsurpassed levitation height for its class.
The CLM 1.5 levitation module is operated by connecting the base to a supply (mains adaptor). Next putting the carrier, with its rubber side down, in the middle above the base until “lock” occurs. The carrier can then be released. Both carrier and base contain powerful magnets, therefore Crealev advises to keep magnetic sensitive devices such as credit cards at a minimum distance of 25 mm (<300 Gauss) from the CLM 1.5.
(http://www.crealev.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/pdf.png)download product sheet

@ All: http://www.crealev.com/product/clm-1-5-levitation-module/
I like how it says it is protected from over heating!  This seems to be a bit of a problem with the levitrons it seems.  OK, now I really want to take one of these apart, ha ha.


Bill

Offline Nink

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2014, 04:08:30 AM »
They have to be using hall sensors or reed switches since they put it in a pillow etc   so I agree Pirate88179 your probably looking at a circle of magnets with the ring magnet and hall hall sensor in in the corners with coil magnets making small adjustments to the voltage to ensure ring magnet is always locked.  So maybe we need a broken microwave to salvage a large ring Magnet from and some computer cooling fans for hall switches.

EDIT:  I THINK I WAS WRONG ABOUT THIS. I posted later that there looks to be a hole in the pillow and the table also had a hole in it for an optic sensor.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 02:50:09 PM by Nink »

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2014, 04:08:30 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2014, 04:55:23 AM »
Yep. A single ratiometric Hall sensor feeding an op-amp comparator with adjustable setpoint, the comparator then drives the pushpull coil driver stage. The ratiometric Hall sensor will put out a voltage that is proportional to the sensed magnetic field strength. So you adjust the setpoint voltage so that the comparator flips at the field strength corresponding to the right levitation distance. Closer (stronger) means the push-pull output stage pushes, farther (weaker field) means that the push-pull stage pulls. (this is assuming the drive coil is beneath the levitated magnet disc). So in this manner the levitated object will be "locked" into a narrow zone, the height of which is adjustable by the setpoint of the comparator flipping state. It still must be stabilized sideways though.
For levitation coil above the object, you only need to "pull". In fact if you aren't concerned about sideways levitation, even the coil-beneath only needs to push, but for that arrangement there must be some other means, like side magnets or coils, to keep the object centered above the coil instead of slipping off like you see in the "magnet hopper" video. Of course the levitated magnet must also be prevented from flipping over in both cases; this is easily enough done by the geometry (distribution of mass wrt the distribution of lift) of the levitated object.
The only Hall sensor I have available at the moment is the one I pulled from the computer fan and it's a latching switch type, not ratiometric. Allegro Microsystems makes the ideal sensors for this purpose, they are cheap and robust and I've used them in several projects before, but I can't remember where they are at the moment. Oh... I just remembered, at least one is in the Orbette pulse motor, but I can't get to that one right now.
My Arduino-based levitator (coil on top) uses optical sensing, a really neat system that actually shuts off the illuminating LED and samples the ambient light every 100 pulses and adjusts for it automagically.
I'm not sure how the Hall sensors will work in the presence of the strong PMs and also the variable field from the coil, though. Perhaps the Hall sensor reads when the coil is momentarily off. Things can happen very fast, at multi-kHz frequencies, so you can turn coils off for a few cycles to take a Hall reading and the object will hardly move in that time. This kind of thing would require microprocessor control though, I doubt if you could do that "coil off then sample field then coil on at right strength and polarity" with op-amps alone, but maybe.

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2014, 04:55:26 AM »
They have to be using hall sensors or reed switches since they put it in a pillow etc   so I agree Pirate88179 your probably looking at a circle of magnets with the ring magnet and hall hall sensor in in the corners with coil magnets making small adjustments to the voltage to ensure ring magnet is always locked.  So maybe we need a broken microwave to salvage a large ring Magnet from and some computer cooling fans for hall switches.

Yes, I agree with you.  Did you see it that video above that it can (according to the specs.) hover 9 pounds?  Holy crap that is a lot of weight, and their hover height is very decent.  I would be thrilled to hover 1 pound in a stable manner.

Bill

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2014, 05:03:12 AM »
That has to mean that most of the levitation is done by the PMs and the coils modulate the field of the PMs. I think.  That's the only way a small current (low heating) can possibly lift that much mass. I think.

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #39 on: December 02, 2014, 05:03:12 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #40 on: December 02, 2014, 05:04:39 AM »
TK:

Did you see that video?  I am still dumbfounded!

For the price these folks are probably charging (and good for them as this is the best I have yet seen) it would not surprise me if there were an Arduino or Rasperry PI style micro processor in there somewhere.  In quantities, I am sure they can be had very economically.  Looking at the version they had hidden in a table, only the center part of the base (looked to be about 1.5" dia.) was showing through the wood.  If that is true then the feedback sensors would all have to be in that small area right?

In the next day or so, I will see if I can find the patent (s) for this type of device.  They probably have a patent in Europe as it looks like that is where they are from.

Bill

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #41 on: December 02, 2014, 05:07:02 AM »
That has to mean that most of the levitation is done by the PMs and the coils modulate the field of the PMs. I think.  That's the only way a small current (low heating) can possibly lift that much mass. I think.

But they can't reverse the polarity of the pm's that way can they?

Bill


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #42 on: December 02, 2014, 05:10:28 AM »
But they can't reverse the polarity of the pm's that way can they?

Bill
Well, do they have to? Say you have two oppositely oriented PMs, both being modulated in strength by their coils. You can weaken the N pole facing one and strengthen the S polar facing one...

Also the field from a big ring magnet can do funny things near the "hole in the donut".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUihboGkJnE

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #43 on: December 02, 2014, 05:19:55 AM »
Well, do they have to? Say you have two oppositely oriented PMs, both being modulated in strength by their coils. You can weaken the N pole facing one and strengthen the S polar facing one...

Also the field from a big ring magnet can do funny things near the "hole in the donut".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUihboGkJnE

Could those mags be stacked then?  If so, this might indeed be how the do it.  Increase the north on one, increase the S on the other.  If they are stacked with opposite poles facing each other (as they would really want to do on their own) then this would seem to work great!  Like you said, the main lifting "power" is handled by the neos (If that is what is used) and hover is achieved and maintained by adjusting the coils like you said.

This is brilliant!  Also, like you said, a lot less power input required=less heat...also brilliant!  I just thought that base was large enough for a computer fan and that was how they did it.

I do believe that you have this device wired, as they say.  Nice work.  This never occurred to me at all.

Bill

PS  I don't think you have to weaken the field on either of the mags, just boost the pole you need on the appropriate mag. at the right time. This way, since you are only boosting the S on the S facing mag, and vise versa, the mags will not get weaker over time...they might actually increase over time.  So now, in this scenario, we are not talking about pole reversal, we are just talking about switching between magnets, which I believe your circuit will also do nicely.



Offline Nink

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2014, 05:48:29 AM »
I re watched the video and I think I was wrong it looks like they are using and optic sensor. You can see the hole in the  botttom of the pillow and in the center of the table.   

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Re: Electronic Levitron...How the heck does this thing work?
« Reply #44 on: December 02, 2014, 05:48:29 AM »

 

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