Cookies-law

Cookies help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
http://www.overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please leave this website now. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 82043
  • *Latest: brf69

  • *Total Posts: 493992
  • *Total Topics: 14517
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 4
  • *Guests: 55
  • *Total: 59

Facebook

Author Topic: magnet fun  (Read 8015 times)

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
magnet fun
« on: November 24, 2014, 06:52:55 PM »
Magnet fun :)

This has probably been shown hundreds of times,, but I get a kick out of it,, it is kind of a play toy.

There is a magnet under the nut and the steel ball is held up in the air,, well sort of,, if I make things correct it will not touch the nut but it will be pressing on something.

The nifty thing is that when the steel ball is taped down to the nut the pull force for me to remove the nut from the magnet,, with a plastic ruler in between them,, is the same whether the nut is held down in the hole against the threads or if it is sitting up on top of the nut,, but when I release the steel ball from being down against the threads it will "pop" up and sit on top,, magic!

I know that my "measurements" are most likely in error,, since it could not be the same force for extraction since the 6g steel ball is higher,, but it is fun to play bounce the steel ball and stuff.

Have a great day!
« Last Edit: November 24, 2014, 11:41:48 PM by webby1 »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

magnet fun
« on: November 24, 2014, 06:52:55 PM »

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2014, 11:20:08 PM »
Steel is a _lot_ more permeable to magnetic flux than is air (vacuum) so the lowest-energy state of the system is for the ball to be directly in contact with the nut. This allows more of the "field lines" to pass through the ball and nut than would be the case with the parts separated by a gap. 

"Why" is this true? I dunno, you'll have to ask God that question, when you meet Him. Unfortunately you won't be able to tell _us_ , at that point.

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2014, 11:36:24 PM »
Magnetic fields are lazy TK,, kind of like me :)

They hate holes as well,, I kind of think it is the hole in the nut that makes the steel ball jump up.

I have played with these for years,, but I never thought to see how much change it would make if the ball was held in the hole compared to being up on top,, I reckoned that I would see a big difference,, but when I did not I thought I would share,, you know it all must be the same,, that is the steel ball must be reducing the attractive force of the whole nut\ball when in the hole.

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2014, 11:42:26 PM »
I reduced the pic,, I thought the site used to do that??

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2014, 12:17:02 AM »
Magnetic fields are lazy TK,, kind of like me :)

They hate holes as well,, I kind of think it is the hole in the nut that makes the steel ball jump up.
Well, in a sense it is, since the permeability of the hole is so much _less_ than the permeability of the metal parts, so there is less magnetic flux in the hole than there is in the metal nut itself. It would be interesting to see a test with an aluminum or copper piece the same size and hole size as the steel nut, since the magnetic permeability of those metals is nearly the same as that of the hole.
Quote
I have played with these for years,, but I never thought to see how much change it would make if the ball was held in the hole compared to being up on top,, I reckoned that I would see a big difference,, but when I did not I thought I would share,, you know it all must be the same,, that is the steel ball must be reducing the attractive force of the whole nut\ball when in the hole.
Again, it's a matter of relative permeability. The magnet produces the same "number of field/flux lines" no matter what, but where they go depends on the materials around the magnet. The steel ball channels more of the flux lines -- a lot more -- than the empty hole can. So when you put the ball in the hole, more of the magnet's total flux goes through the ball. When the ball is out of the hole, all that flux must now go through the much-lower permeability space to complete the magnetic circuit (all field lines form closed loops). But when the ball is in contact with the side of the nut, that is the position where the most field lines go through the ball/nut combo so that is the position that the system wants to "fall into": the position of least magnetic potential energy.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: magnet fun
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2014, 12:17:02 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2014, 12:27:03 AM »
I get the permeability and all that,, well on my level :)

You are confusing me here somewhat,, the ball will pick itself up and out of the hole with enough force for my finger to play with,, that is what I do with these things,, figit with them,,

So are you saying that the attract force will be the same with the ball in the hole as when the ball is out of the hole??

I figure that that could NEVER be the case,, because then there is work done for free.

A long time ago I read an article that covered what you are talking about with respect to using copper or aluminum,, I don't remember what the outcome was or why they were doing it,, I think it was from MIT,, not sure.

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 04:31:42 AM »
Not exactly.

The strength of the magnet can be represented by the number of field lines it creates. (The magnetic field line has a very specific mathematical definition, it's not a loose concept.)  Since the strength of the magnet itself is constant, the number of field lines is also constant. Say the magnet produces 100 "field lines" that loop out of one polarity and go around and go in the other polarity (actually they go right thru the magnet as closed loops.) This is in air which has permeability 1, same (nearly) as the vacuum. Now you put the steel nut on top of the magnet. It has much greater permeability, so say 80 of the field lines  are now sucked into the steel before exiting and looping around, and only 20 go around the edges or thru the hole in the nut. You put your ball down inside the hole of the nut, but there aren't so many field lines in that place in space any more because most of them are in the nut itself due to its greater permeability. The ball wants to jump out of the hole and sit on the edge, because this is the position where the most of the available field lines can go through the high-permeability material of the nut and the ball in order to make the shortest loops back around to and through the magnet itself. It takes work to push the ball down into the hole because now you are taking the system out of a magnetic potential energy "well" and pushing it into a place where the MPE is higher. It is exactly the same thing as "cogging" in a magnet motor with cored coils. The rotor magnets want to move to, or stay in, a place where the concentrated field lines are, and your ball wants to move to a place where the concentrated field lines are.
If you replace the nut with an aluminum or copper piece with the same geometry as the nut, hole in the middle etc, then the ball will not have any reason to move out of the hole and stick to the upper edge, because the field is no more concentrated within the metal as it is in free air (vacuum). The very slight difference in permeability of copper or aluminum wrt air or vacuum can't create the same energetic minimum because they don't "suck in" the field lines from the magnet.

Now, all that being said, there aren't really "field lines" any more than there are contour lines on a mountain corresponding to your topo map. But like the topo map with its lines every ten feet or hundred feet of altitude, the field lines are also rigorously described; they represent a certain amount of magnetic "flux". Once again we are stuck with old terms, because there really isn't any flow of anything in "magnetic flux", it's just a way of describing how certain kinds of things ("test particles") will move when placed in the field of the magnet. Just as gravity doesn't flow but things flow along gravitational gradients, and just as a road goes nowhere but cars travel along a road, so too with a magnetic field. It describes a region in space (or matter) where test particles of a certain well-defined kind will tend to move in particular ways. And "flux" and "field lines" are just ways of describing this movement in well-defined ways so that engineers and other idiots can do things like for example calculate the necessary configuration and action of magnetic deflection coils to make nonexistent electrons paint a picture on your CRT screen.    ;)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: magnet fun
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2014, 04:31:42 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2014, 01:19:35 PM »
Interesting take on things TK.

What polarity is an erupting field line?  what is the polarity of lines going up the hole?

I find that magnetic fields, like electricity, will feel out all avenues and use the path of least resistance.

But,, I like your answer since it costs me nothing to place the steel ball down in the hole when it is away from the magnet,, then I have to hold the steel ball still,, then release the steel ball and have it spring upwards at no cost to me,, because the steel ball is moving to a lower MPE,,

So should I not at least be able to measure the weight of the steel ball as a change in force that I exert to remove the nut\ball from the magnet?  So if I am not getting that (besides that my tests are most likely wrong) then what does that mean?

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2014, 05:20:45 PM »
Interesting take on things TK.
It's not my "take" on things; what I am trying to describe is the conventional understanding of the properties of magnetic fields, and is contained in the expression found in Maxwell's Equations, divB=0. This _truth_ has been confirmed by countless experiments made by thousands of scientists and engineers and continues to be confirmed every time someone runs an electric motor or generator or alternator, uses a CRT, or plays with magnets and nuts and balls. Or does many other things involving electromagnetism, current flow, etc. even sticking up your kid's latest crayon drawing onto the fridge with a magnet.
Quote

What polarity is an erupting field line?  what is the polarity of lines going up the hole?
If you curl the fingers of your LEFT hand around a field line, your thumb will point in the "north" direction, that is "from North pole to South pole" along the line (IIRC) . The "direction" or "polarity" of the lines coming up thru the hole depends on which "pole" of the magnet is facing the nut with the hole in it, of course. There is some confusion between LH Rule and RH Rule because of Franklin's famous error concerning electron flow direction (from more negative to more positive voltage) and conventional current direction (from more positive to more negative). See the drawings below. Field lines are closed loops. Note that one drawing uses "conventional" current direction and the other drawing uses electron flow direction.
Quote


I find that magnetic fields, like electricity, will feel out all avenues and use the path of least resistance.

Yes, that is what the idea of "permeability" conveys. Free space (vacuum, air) is much more "resistive"  or rather much less permeable to magnetic fields than is iron.
Quote

But,, I like your answer since it costs me nothing to place the steel ball down in the hole when it is away from the magnet,, then I have to hold the steel ball still,, then release the steel ball and have it spring upwards at no cost to me,, because the steel ball is moving to a lower MPE,,

It "costs" you to move the nut/ball combo towards the magnet. As you get closer it takes more finger-force to hold the magnet in the hole. You are storing energy in the  magnetic "spring". When you remove your finger this energy is returned as work, moving the ball out of the hole to the position of least MPE.
Quote

So should I not at least be able to measure the weight of the steel ball as a change in force that I exert to remove the nut\ball from the magnet?  So if I am not getting that (besides that my tests are most likely wrong) then what does that mean?
Now you have lost me. Find yourself some things with a hole, made of different metals: Steel or iron, versus aluminum or copper. Do your experiment and compare what you feel in each case. 

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 05:45:08 PM »
Just using a N for ease,, then the sense of direction coming from the magnet is out, then it is going into the nut and out of the nut,, it is also going out, up and through the hole as well as trying to come out of the nut into the hole then it is also going into the bottom of the ball and out of the top of the ball,, and the sides of the ball.

All this stuff can be calculated and simulated,, so yes it is all understood fairly well.

Here is what I think you are missing and why I say that my measurements must simply be wrong,, the force I read on a scale holding the magnet is the same when I try and lift the nut\ball away from the magnet.  If the ball is in the hole my scale read 104g,, when the ball was on top of the nut my scale read 104g.

When the nut\ball are outside the prevalent sphere of influence of the magnet the ball will freely fall into the nut, gravity,, then when the nut is lowered down to the magnet the ball will freely jump back up and out of the hole with a little extra force,, just enough anyway that I can play with it with my finger,, so having the nut on the magnet then my finger pushes the ball down,, but having the nut away from the magnet gravity pushes the ball down.

If the force I apply to lift the nut\ball away from the magnet is the same whether the ball is in the hole or on top of the nut,, then what?

Gravity extracted force by the ball freely falling,,  Magnetic force freely extracted by the ball moving back up and the same cost to me to change the position of the nut\ball,, which would be zero cost if in fact the force was the same.

The force to hold the ball down in the hole is not over any distance,, no distance no work done, the ball moving either up or down is over a distance and so work is done.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: magnet fun
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2014, 05:45:08 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2014, 06:11:30 PM »
Just using a N for ease,, then the sense of direction coming from the magnet is out, then it is going into the nut and out of the nut,, it is also going out, up and through the hole as well as trying to come out of the nut into the hole then it is also going into the bottom of the ball and out of the top of the ball,, and the sides of the ball.

All this stuff can be calculated and simulated,, so yes it is all understood fairly well.

Here is what I think you are missing and why I say that my measurements must simply be wrong,, the force I read on a scale holding the magnet is the same when I try and lift the nut\ball away from the magnet.  If the ball is in the hole my scale read 104g,, when the ball was on top of the nut my scale read 104g.

When the nut\ball are outside the prevalent sphere of influence of the magnet the ball will freely fall into the nut, gravity,, then when the nut is lowered down to the magnet the ball will freely jump back up and out of the hole with a little extra force,, just enough anyway that I can play with it with my finger,, so having the nut on the magnet then my finger pushes the ball down,, but having the nut away from the magnet gravity pushes the ball down.

If the force I apply to lift the nut\ball away from the magnet is the same whether the ball is in the hole or on top of the nut,, then what?
Then you are confusing yourself because you aren't doing the proper experiment. I have suggested it to you several times already. It is also very difficult, as I have found, to get an accurate "weight" or force measurement of a magnet unless special care is taken. The reasons for this should be obvious: The magnetic field interacts adversely with the measurement apparatus.  The very fact that the ball springs up out of the hole, and it takes work from your finger to push it back down, shows that your force measurements are somehow in error, for example you are measuring the wrong thing, yes?
Quote

Gravity extracted force by the ball freely falling,,  Magnetic force freely extracted by the ball moving back up and the same cost to me to change the position of the nut\ball,, which would be zero cost if in fact the force was the same.

The force to hold the ball down in the hole is not over any distance,, no distance no work done, the ball moving either up or down is over a distance and so work is done.
You do work against the field when you move the nut-ball into position over the magnet. The force you apply to hold the ball down in the hole grows as your combo gets closer and closer to the magnet. 

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2014, 09:15:05 PM »
No you have not,, you have put forward a non related experiment and you have confused when and where the actions take place.

When I use it as a figit thing then yes I am pushing the ball down and it is popping back up,, this is a no brainer and very easy to understand.

I have played with these setups for years and never did I ever think to actually test the force change,, so I did.

What I was expecting is that it would take more force for me to remove the nut\ball when the ball is on the top of the nut than what I could extract from the nut\ball being sucked, as a whole unit into the magnet with the ball in the hole.

What I found was that my scale could not show any difference.  My scale is only accurate to 0.5g

*If* this did move out for the same force as in,, that is the nut\ball with ball in hole for the move in and the nut\ball with ball on top of nut for out, then that would be a clear violation of understood methods,, so I MUST conclude that there is an error in measurements.

Does the nut act like a magnet when it is not under the influence of a magnetic source? does the ball?

No and No,,

When the nut\ball are away from the magnetic source the ball will freely enter into the hole.

When the nut is under the influence of a magnetic source does it behave like a magnet,,  like a speaker magnet?  When the ball is under the influence of a magnetic source does it behave like a magnet,, like a disc magnet?

What happens when you force those two together?? you know what happens and so do I.

Away from the magnetic source or within the influence,, this makes for the same "parts" having different behaviors.

Maybe in a while I try and see if I can make some distance measurements,, right now I am playing with pressures and stuff and got sidetracked with this to help me think things over.

Go ahead and try it yourself TK,, I think you would be able to make those force measurements much better than me and it does not take long to set things up really.

Offline TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13558
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2014, 11:31:33 PM »
The proper control experiment is to compare the action of the steel nut with that of a non-permeable nut or metal ring of similar shape. Suggested materials are copper or aluminum or even plastic. These differ from the steel nut in this experiment only in magnetic permeability.
The proper measurement is the measurement of the force you use to push the ball into the hole with your finger when the nut is in contact with the magnet, which is of course the same force with which it springs out of the hole when the hole is the hole in the highly permeable steel nut, or when it doesn't spring out when the hole is in a copper or aluminum piece. The _work_ you put in is equal to the work you get out, minus losses.

Highly permeable materials will "act like" a magnet when they are near a real magnet, because they concentrate the available field lines within themselves. As I have explained several times already.

Why is this so hard for you to understand? I think you are just teasing me.

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2014, 12:23:05 AM »
Not teasing TK,, but it is you who are missing it,, you remember that I have a hard time communicating with you.

I was thinking of seeing how much extra the scale reads when I push down on the ball,, but that is really messy since I would need to keep from actually pushing the ball onto the nut.

Grab yourself a 1\2 inch nut,, and a 10mm ball,, I think that is the size,, a scale and a plastic ruler,, you might also want some tape and a few blocks of wood.

Tape the magnet to the wood,, place the wood\magnet on a scale with the magnet up,, place ruler on top of magnet, centered.   Use a block of wood on one side of the ruler and your hand on the other,, take ruler off of magnet and zero your scale,, replace ruler, place nut with ball on ruler on the scale,, lift the open end of the ruler and watch the highest negative reading your scale shows,, move slowly,, repeat with the ball either inside the hole or on top of the nut,, you may need to tape the ball down inside the hole.

I got 104g either way,, but my scale is only good to 0.5g and a 6g ball is fairly light for a +-0.5g error factor.

Now hold the nut\ball away from the magnet and see how high the ball will move :)

Offline webby1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3039
Re: magnet fun
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2014, 05:24:15 PM »
Well TK,, there was another possibility that I failed to consider and therefore failed to appreciate.

With that possibility I can repeatably setup so that the pull force down with the ball in the hole is larger than the pull force to lift the nut and ball back up with the ball on top of the nut.

I should of thought of this right away since I have used this interaction many times when dealing with ferromagnetic things with holes in them.

The strongest pull in was when the nut\ball combo was over the edge of the field,, then when the combo is centered on the field it is less.  Nothing new there but it was Mr. Hand that must of been making the slight shift needed in a lateral move that caused the scale to maintain the same reading.

A lateral move within the field as such takes force,, that is what I failed to consider and appreciate.  Mr. Hand was putting in the extra force.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: magnet fun
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2014, 05:24:15 PM »

 

Share this topic to your favourite Social and Bookmark site

Please SHARE this topic at: