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Author Topic: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply  (Read 17721 times)

Mancha

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Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« on: November 03, 2014, 08:40:12 AM »
Hi,
Because previous video about "Charging Battery with Reactive Power" was not good enough
I made new , better one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXUISuI1jCg
All The Best,
Milan

TinselKoala

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2014, 03:03:30 PM »
Well, I can charge a 12 volt battery with a 2 volt supply.  And I don't have nearly as much nice bench equipment as you do. So?

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2014, 03:59:10 PM »
 to TinselKoala
But I am fat  guy and you are not :(

Tito L. Oracion

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2014, 05:21:17 AM »
Well, I can charge a 12 volt battery with a 2 volt supply.  And I don't have nearly as much nice bench equipment as you do. So?


YES!, that's right we can charge  a battery in any volts as long as there is an instant sucking and pushing. :)

just be sure if it can handle the power. ;)

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2014, 06:52:18 AM »
Guys, seems that you did not understand the point :)
You are talking about voltage  step up conversion, but I do  not ;)

CANGAS

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2014, 09:36:54 AM »
Guys, seems that you did not understand the point :)
You are talking about voltage  step up conversion, but I do  not ;)


Mancha, in your hubris you do not care that some of us fail to have nice computer systems that are fast enough, so, we never (can) do youtube crap.

I have primitive old charging equipment that can charge to any voltage from any voltage. The most I have done is to charge 15.5 top charge from 1.55 top charge.

Is it possible to describe yo youtube crap in verbal English?

In other words, if you have something important to say, then, say it. Don't just tell us that we are to dumb to get it.

Thank you so much.


CANGAS 90


Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2014, 10:06:53 AM »
to Cangas:
It was not hubris, but  could be crap as you said  :)
My comment  was addressed to TinesKoala and Tito. Not to everybody .
Because they are talking about voltage step up conversion.
What I am saying that  power input 10 V x 1A to charge the  12V battery is more efficient than 13.5 or 15.5  x 1 A.
It means  no step up or step down conversion, the same current from the  source  and the same current  to battery.
I hope that it is  more clear now.

MileHigh

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2014, 05:25:51 PM »
Cangas:

You have to be kidding with your comments about "hubris" and "fast enough computer systems" and "crap."  You are making it sound like Milan is doing a demo with a $50,000 digital storage oscilloscope and is enjoying making the rest of us look poor.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  You can buy a Pentium 4 box for $30 that will play YouTube videos just fine.  An eight-year-old laptop will play YouTube videos just fine.

Meanwhile Milan makes videos in English which is not his first language and does just fine.  You need to rethink your statements.

Milan:

If your clip was called "Charging 12V battery with 10V RMS AC Power Supply" it would have been more appropriate.  You make comments that voltage doesn't really count and current is the primary factor for charging batteries.  This is not correct.  Current is always linked to voltage to calculate charging power, you cannot separate the two.  If people talk about "the best charging current" and similar things for batteries, the associated voltage is always implicit and understood to be there.  It still comes down to power x time = joules.

Note this is a fundamental property of Nature:  The "through variable" (current) times the "across variable" (voltage) = power.  You see it everywhere:  force x velocity, torque x angular velocity, water flow x water pressure, etc.

Your setup is indeed a quick and easy way to charge a battery from a 10 VAC power source.  I will be honest and state that I don't play with 12-volt batteries because I don't have a requirement to do that.  But if I had a requirement, I would do my research on smart chargers and buy a good quality smart battery charger.  I believe that they use inductive charging with current pulses and they make tests to see if the battery is fully charged and then they stop charging automatically.

You may want to explore constant-current LED power supplies.  You can string multiple batteries in series and the LED power supply will charge them at a constant current.  There are also dimmable constant-current LED power supplies where you can adjust the current with a potentiometer.  Naturally, you would want to stop the charging manually after the battery is fully charged.

MileHigh

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2014, 06:22:44 PM »
MileHigh,
thanks for your comment. I have been surprise  also with  some comment from some meber and did not react much.
Your suggestion  about tittle is very good and I will change it right now.
Regarding  what I said about current and joules .
You are right that we can not separate  voltage and cuurent, they goes together. What I said is not my statements , it is  from electro chemistry . Maybe I did not formulate it well  even I tried to explain it with single cell of electrolyser. 
Let is try it again. If  will look any law , any formula in electro chemistry . all of them are related to number of coulombs  or amps,. Because they (coulombs or amps) making deposit on cathode and oxidation on anode. So no voltage in all formulas  about this subject. But we need voltage of course. It tell us that we can use  any voltage range (from minimum needed voltage to above)
the work will be determined by passing current.
I will use electrolytic cell for example again.
By Faraday law we know that 96485 Coulombs is needed to liberate 1 gram of mas on electrode.

Imagine that we have cell with two stainless electrodes inside of  20 % NaOH solution.
Breaking voltage of NaOH solution is 1.69 V, plus overvoltage (supertension) of electrodes gives minimum operating voltage about 2 V. So we have MINIMUM input voltage which is 2 Volts .
The current depends of distance between electrodes, size of electrodes and type of solution and input voltage.
I already said that 2 V input will be minimum voltage input, under it, the cell will works like capacitor.
By  calculation  we can see that about 1.6 Amps (formula do not ask for voltage value) is needed to get one liter of Hydrogen /oxygen mixture for one hour.
 So if we tune distance between two electrodes in cell to draw 1.6 amp at 2 Volts input we will get 1 liter og  gas for one hour.
It gives 2 x 1.6= 3.2  Joules or Watts hour.
Next .. if we distance electrodes each other  too much, the current will drops  for the same voltage input. Now we need to find which voltage input will gives 1.6 Amps  between electrodes.
Let say that this new voltage valuse is 3.4 V
We have  now 3.4 x 1.6= 5.44 Joules of Watts hour to get ONE liter of gas.
So  gas production is the SAME because it is related to Amps not to Joules
But there are losses in this case. Amps makes Joules Heat which we can calculate by formula E(heat)= R x I^2 
It tell us that distanced electrodes will produces  more heat than close electrodes, but gas production will be the same.
It is the same for the battery, because  the same process is happen inside of them.
So if we go back to video which I made , it tell us that lover voltage input will be more efficient than higher voltage input. Battery to be charged from  starting Capacity  stage to 100 % Capacity needs  X amount of coulombs . If you make it with 10V RMS will be lower energy input than if you make with 14.4 or 15.5 V input.
But as  I said in video , you need longer time to do that with 10 V RMS than with 14.4 V RMS.
I am using this charger if I am not in a hurry.

All The Best,





MileHigh

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2014, 09:07:57 PM »
Milan:

Thank you for your reply.  I am just a layperson when it comes to battery electro-chemistry but I can make a few basic comments.

When you separate the electrodes it takes more voltage to sustain the same current to produce the gas like you state.  However, we know that the electrolyte itself acts like a resistor.  Therefore as the current flows through the electrolyte there is a voltage drop.  The farther apart the electrodes are, the greater the voltage drop assuming the same current flow.  In other words, this is just basic electronics concepts where the "resistor" is a fluid.

Of course there is the production of gas.  That is a chemical reaction with an associated chemical formula.  When you look at the formula, you see the molecular reaction to produce the gas.  Some reactions are endothermic, and some reactions are exothermic.  In some chemical formulas associated with the equal sign there is either a requirement of a certain number of electron-volts to make the reaction go forward, or in other cases the reaction produces a certain number of electron volts.  So the point is that some chemical equations require energy in the form of electron-volts, or they release energy in the form of electron volts.  Therefore, the chemical formulas account for the addition or generation of electrons, and the associated electron-volts for the reaction.  i.e.; they are accounting for current and voltage for the reaction, even if in common everyday usage people only speak about the current.

So, if for example you put four volts across the electrodes to produce gas, you may have a three volt drop due to the resistance of the electrolyte, and a one volt drop to produce the gas.  In another configuration it may only require three volts to produce the gas where two volts are the voltage drop through the electrolyte, and one volt remains to produce the gas.

There is no issue with respect to talking in terms of current only for purposes of discussing reactions to produce gas.  The voltage is implicit and can't be forgotten when you start to do a serious energy analysis.

MileHigh

Mancha

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2014, 09:34:30 PM »
MileHigh,
Yes, in all physics we simplify process when we are trying to explain. But in reality they are  very, very complex.
The same is with  electro-chemistry, Faraday's law of electrolysis, charging batteries etc.
If you had chance to look my video about Tesla's Radiant Energy 5, you will see that things are not simple. Depends how we treat the  cell /cells (electrolysers or batteries) different products comes out of this.
Thanks again.
Milan

profitis

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2014, 01:03:54 AM »
Hey mancha what type of 12volt battery are you charging

CANGAS

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2014, 06:24:03 AM »
to Cangas:
It was not hubris, but  could be crap as you said  :)
My comment  was addressed to TinesKoala and Tito. Not to everybody .
Because they are talking about voltage step up conversion.
What I am saying that  power input 10 V x 1A to charge the  12V battery is more efficient than"  13.5 or 15.5  x 1 A.
It means  no step up or step down conversion, the same current from the  source  and the same current  to battery.
I hope that it is  more clear now.


Mancha....I have a SMALL budget available for non-essential expenses.

When I say "computer" or "computer system" that includes the internet connection.

My budget allows only dial-up internet connection.

Dial-up is famously SLOW.

Use of roughly a half dozen different different dial-up connections across 10 years have proved to me that downloading and viewing Youtube stuff is futile. It demands much more time than I can devote to it, and most often fails to complete anyway.

I have become increasingly frustrated at posters who only provide a Youtube URL and fail to give any written description of their grand idea. It really leaves me out of the loop.

When you leave me out of the loop because I cannot pay for faster computer system performance, that means that I am being considered 2nd class.

Considering me 2nd class means that you (generically speaking) consider yourself better class than me, therefore the reference to the word "hubris".


CANGAS 91



 

CANGAS

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2014, 06:43:41 AM »
Mile High:

Quote
Cangas:

You have to be kidding with your comments about "hubris" and "fast enough computer systems" and "crap."  You are making it sound like Milan is doing a demo with a $50,000 digital storage oscilloscope and is enjoying making the rest of us look poor.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  You can buy a Pentium 4 box for $30 that will play YouTube videos just fine.  An eight-year-old laptop will play YouTube videos just fine.

Meanwhile Milan makes videos in English which is not his first language and does just fine.  You need to rethink your statements.


You have done it again. I have been noticing that you sometimes say something when you really seem to not know what you are talking about.

Jack, I was not writing about simply PLAYING Youtube or any other videos.

I was talking about DOWNLOADING Youtube videos. On my dial-up connection which is all I can afford.

How about you rethinking your statements. And maybe stuffing them before you ever write them.


CANGAS 92

Marsing

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Re: Charging 12V Battery with 10V Power Supply
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2014, 07:43:05 AM »

I was talking about DOWNLOADING Youtube videos. On my dial-up connection which is all I can afford.

CANGAS 92

i use http://www.clipconverter.cc , java must active, vid can be converted and be downloaded in many different format. then watch off line many time. but ads are annoying..   idm or fdm can help also.
problem solved .

seems MH can not look a thing in different angle, it's always him..