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Author Topic: New PM Motor Concept  (Read 7629 times)

Offline lumen

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New PM Motor Concept
« on: October 18, 2014, 07:29:05 PM »
Well a new half baked idea!
 
For everyone that does not know it I would like to say that magnetic fields are 100% conservative and can produce no energy other than what was put into it initially.
But what does that mean actually? I suppose it would mean if you push together two magnets that are repelling then that is storing energy that one could use minus some small losses that we will ignore for now.
 
So here is a PM magnetic oscillator that works in a field simulator. Once the arm travels across to the other side, the small cylinder magnet can be rotated with near zero force and the arm will travel again back across to the start apparently with some gain of energy.
 
I have studied this for some time before I realized why this works and I will say it's not the magnetic field producing work as one might think because we all know that magnetic fields are conservative.
I have added an animation for a better understanding of it's operation.
From this, I may have developed a rotational method of operation using the same principal that makes this device operate.
 
 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 09:39:26 PM by lumen »

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New PM Motor Concept
« on: October 18, 2014, 07:29:05 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2014, 10:12:45 PM »
Hi Lumen,

Thanks for showing this idea. Would have some questions:
1) basically, two block magnets magnetized lengthwise are attached to each other as shown, correct?
2) the small cylinder magnet is also magnetized lengthwise, correct?
3) what do you think would cause the starting oscillations for the cylinder magnet (after the assembly)? An outside initial force?

Thanks and will return.

Gyula

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Offline lumen

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2014, 11:38:57 PM »
Hi Lumen,

Thanks for showing this idea. Would have some questions:
1) basically, two block magnets magnetized lengthwise are attached to each other as shown, correct?
2) the small cylinder magnet is also magnetized lengthwise, correct?
3) what do you think would cause the starting oscillations for the cylinder magnet (after the assembly)? An outside initial force?

Thanks and will return.

Gyula

Hi Gyula,
The original design is four large magnets (2x2x1/4 thick) and a cylinder that is diametrically polarized so it can be rotated after reaching the other side.
When you think of the field from the large magnets connecting to each other, you will see that as the cylinder moves away it encounters only more opposing force.
Moving to the other side it will encounter only increasing attraction until it moves into a neutral proximity between the large magnets.
 
Interesting design, but the field is not the cause of operation because we know that magnets are only a conservative force right.
 
 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 12:45:43 AM »
Hi Lumen,

Now that you mentioned the diametrically magnetized cylinder magnet,  I can understand this setup much better.   8)

So the poles are N-S-N-S-N-S-N-S in case for the 4 large magnets. Of course when they are attached the inner poles join to each other in attraction so that there is little flux spreading out at the inner joints, making a long N-S magnet,  right?

If this is yes, (though maybe there is some air gap left between the neighboring magnets you have not mentioned?),  then I can agree with your "prediction" as to the cylinder magnet will ping-pong back and forth, passing through the neutral zone (as you mentioned) in the middle  part of the large magnets by inertia.  In case there are some air gaps between the large magnets, the operation principle does not seem to change as I see it though.

And in case you can indeed rotate the cylinder magnet at the other end with a little input power to benefit from the repel force (again) thus created,  especially when you "may have developed a rotational method of operation using the same principal that makes this device operate",  then surely you have a promising setup.

What hands-on tests have you already managed to do on this setup? Would be very good to build and see any further pitfalls. 
So far the pitfalls to overcome are the friction of the two wheels holding the cylinder magnet (always in parallel position with the large magnets) and also to overcome the possible input power to  rotate force the cylinder magnet when needed.  These could indeed need a minimum input energy but the oscillating forces to keep the cylinder magnet should defeat these counter forces I mentioned as pitfalls, besides producing any extra output to utilize,  beyond these inputs.

You wrote: "Interesting design, but the field is not the cause of operation because we know that magnets are only a conservative force right."

Okay but once you create a setup where these static forces are able to 'see' each other in close proximity, then they invariably interact with each other naturally, so the repel and attract forces should cause the movement of the body of the cylinder magnet  on a confined path you 'prescibed' for it.  The main event it seems is to introduce a preferably small outside force to rotate the cylinder magnet 180 degree at one end and another 180 degree at the other. 
 

Gyula


Offline lumen

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 02:01:08 AM »
The large magnets are thin flat magnets with the poles on the faces as shown and the other poles are on the back side. They are mounted in a stationary plastic block. The wheels are two simple wheels with the center wheel mounted stationary and a thread looped and fastened to the pivoting one. The thread can be attached because it never does a full rotation so it can be connected at a point that never leaves the wheel.
 
It's all very simple and even a 2d simulator would support it's rotation.
You can't forget that the movement of the cylinder magnet through it's path (which is also along the field lines of force from the larger magnets) is a key part of it's operation.
This is when it hit me that it's not the magnets but how the force is applied that makes it different. Now that is getting us close to the next step.
Part of the field compression process that is storing force (not energy because magnets can't store energy they only store force) is canceled by the Roberval action between the two wheels.

 
 
 

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 02:01:08 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2014, 03:40:20 AM »
If you understand that the PM oscillator operated from the compression of the forces without requiring work then you will probably understand why this new motor will run.
Just estimating the shown configuration of about 12 inch diameter and 2" center magnets I figure this motor should generate over 1000 watts.
 
It has to do with the force vectors generated with the Roberval action. Roberval action only responds to scalar forces and eliminates all torque. So any force applied along the Roberval axis is simply ignored.
 
This allows part of the compression cycle (or the storing of force) to take place in a vector that provides additional gain in the rotation direction.
It inversely also allows the attraction forces to achieve the same additional effect.
Because of this vector constraint, both (sticky spots) are not only eliminated, but add force in the rotational direction!
The animation is a little fast but had to fit in the size limit. Maybe someone can step it through frame by frame and draw the force vectors from magnet to magnet.
This would then clearly show the additional gain area.
 
The design uses all cylinder magnets as shown and mounted to a Roberval connection on the back of the wheel.

Offline lumen

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2014, 06:05:59 AM »
Yea, I'm probably just drinking too much coffee....

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2014, 06:05:59 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2014, 11:01:38 AM »
Your last design looks very symmetric, I don't believe it will achieve more than a 45° rotation.

Offline lumen

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2014, 06:12:33 PM »
Your last design looks very symmetric, I don't believe it will achieve more than a 45° rotation.

Yes I believe you are correct.
The main idea here is to use Roberval action to leverage part of the work of compressing a field and obtain some gain during the process and still gain from the overall compression. This could be several factors over a simple wheel rotating past a magnet.
This appears possible and the design was meant to display that possibility.
 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 08:41:58 PM »
Hi Lumen,

Thanks for the further info on the setup shown in your first post. The practical build of that oscillator seems to depend on how one can solve the needed 180 degree turning of the oscillating magnet at the end positions.

Regarding your next setup, you surely can improve it.

Gyula

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 08:41:58 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2014, 10:51:27 PM »
Hi Gyula,
I've had all the magnets to build the oscillator device for some time now but no opportunity. It would be a first for me to build a device that was shown to work in the simulator.
I thought it may be possible to roll the cylinder magnet with two small gear racks against a spring at the end of it's travel. One rack would roll the magnet one direction and the other would roll it back.
Essentially using all the gained momentum as it transverses to roll the cylinder and any extra to spring itself back out from the neutral position to transverse across again.
 
It if works for real, it would oscillate back and forth until something fails.
 
The Roberval wheel is not the original but was changed before posting while I thought it was an improvement in fact I enhanced a problem in the design. I will try to show why and how the roberval action can generate a working device also.

 
 
 

Offline lumen

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 10:32:08 PM »
Hi Gyula,
This is a better design to show how the unwanted interactions can be reduced or even eliminated by the Roberval action.
With each frame of the animation one could draw vectors between the interacting magnets and see the reference to the vector ignore line indicated on the wheel.
 
 


Offline AB Hammer

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2014, 02:04:11 AM »
Hi Gyula,
This is a better design to show how the unwanted interactions can be reduced or even eliminated by the Roberval action.
With each frame of the animation one could draw vectors between the interacting magnets and see the reference to the vector ignore line indicated on the wheel.

Greetings lumen

Interesting Idea, but after building some magnet wheels I have my doubts they will do as you think. But you need to build one or two of them and see for yourself. There is always a kinetic effect that you may capitalize on. Also don't be afraid to change the field shapes of your magnets for that can also have an effect. Yes, there is ways to change magnetic field shapes but I will leave that up to your research.

Alan

Offline lumen

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2014, 04:14:59 AM »
Hi Alan,
 
What I am trying to do is use a Roberval action to redirect part of the opposing fields to provide additional forward vectors unlike simply rotating a wheel past another magnet.
Based on the first post's working oscillator simulation, it may be possible to apply the concept to a rotational device.
I have however built a few magnet motors before and understand what your saying. Things have a way of defeating every move you make.
In the end I'm hoping this may be the way to beat the conservative field of magnets.
These are all simple builds but with a complex concept of vector diversion and I hope to build a few designs soon.
 
 
 

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Offline gyulasun

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 05:27:38 PM »
Hi Lumen,

Thanks for showing the modified drawing, looks much better.  I have to ponder on and figure out a possible Roberval mechanism because although I am familiar with Roberval balance principle and it may seem simple, the details are important on the back side of the wheel too.  Then, imagining the whole setup, one could spot possible sticky points.

Gyula

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Re: New PM Motor Concept
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2014, 05:27:38 PM »

 

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