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Author Topic: Sum of torque  (Read 73271 times)

Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2014, 08:12:54 PM »
Maybe this idea ?

Before t=0, turn at w1 and w2 disk. We need to give energy for that. W1>W2. Ar t=0, walls of disk has friction with air only at red point, this give forces F1 and F2 and reduce w2, like w1>w2, the energy increase, no ?

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2014, 08:12:54 PM »

Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2014, 11:47:05 PM »
It's possible to give a torque to disk with external green object. Each object is accelerating, its energy is increasing. w2 slow down, not w1. The energy is :

1/2md²w1²+1/2mr²(w1−w2)²

with :

d = lenght of black arm
r = radius of disk
m = mass of disk

The energy of disk increase. The system increas its energy.

Edit: use a ring instead of disk for have (w1-w2) term.

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Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2014, 08:29:38 PM »
nobody for help me ?

Offline webby1

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2014, 10:38:20 PM »
What is it that you would like help with?

I might not be able to give you the numbers, as in all the formulas and stuff,, but you are playing with something that I have built and played with.

If you mount a motor on the arm that is holding W2 then when you use that motor to accelerate W2 it will turn the arm around W1.  If W2 is spinning and you use an external force to slow it down it will also add to the rotation of W1.


Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2014, 12:27:06 AM »
There is no motor after t=0, only before for launch disk. At t=0, apply friction ONLY at red point, not all around the disk. Red points change all the time their positions, this need special wall if you use friction (w1>w2). I don't know if it's clear enough. I think the formula is good only for a ring it's a little more complex for a disk. The disk win energy because w2 decrease. It's logical if you think with some points around the disk, at external the velocity is dw1-rw2 but at internal it's dw1+rw2, like the energy is a square function the external disk "cancel" more energy than it add at internal. I tested with Algodoo, you can test if you want it's very easy, fixe w1 and change w2 like you want and look at the sum of energy you will see the energy increase when w2 decrease (w1>w2). It's strange to say the energy increase if you slow down something but it is. And you can slow down the disk only at red point where w1 is the same for 2 points.

Quote
What is it that you would like help with?
maybe if you understand it allow me to explain the system, after if you can test for watch the energy increase with Algodoo, if you agree with that it's a first step for me. Test in reality must be difficult due the dynamic wall needed.

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2014, 12:27:06 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2014, 03:49:24 AM »
So you are taking the KE or whatever of disk W2 and by using an outside resistance forcing W2 to rotate around W1.

This is not hard to do,, BTDT.

For the red points you can use an inductive device,, I used a coil for the red point and many magnets on the disc,, you can move the position of the coil to try and find the most reactive position for the conversion from W2 spin to W1 arc.

I have Algodoo but have found that its physics and materials handling are not very accurate.  I built a sim that grew the energy value up at a constant rate,, and that for a system I had actually built so I know that those numbers are wrong,, also it has a nasty habit of stretching the pivots\axles, depending on that stretch as to how much increase you can get.

Am I close to what you are meaning?

Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2014, 07:16:18 AM »
Yeah, I think we're ok. When I said it's difficult to built, it's for a pure 100% mechanical system. 

What's number is wrong, the formula ? I think it's ok for a ring and maybe for a disk, a french guy on a forum said the formula is ok for a disk but I'm not sure, another guy on another forum said it's ok for a ring not for a disk. I looked for 10 hours on Internet and I don't find the formula.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:13:22 PM by EOW »

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2014, 07:16:18 AM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2014, 12:29:22 PM »
The Energy calculation in Algodoo has known issues.  They have stated that it will be addressed as well as a few other glitches.

Your numbers,, I am not sure of,, I am not a big formula kind of person and when dealing with spinning things there are several vectors that need to be dealt with simultaneously,, not my strong point there,,

I kind of find it funny that a ring or a disc might be able to use different formulas just because it is either a ring or a disc.

Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2014, 12:36:51 PM »
Quote
I kind of find it funny that a ring or a disc might be able to use different formulas just because it is either a ring or a disc.
me too... I don't find the formula in Internet but anyway it's works with a ring, and this idea can be use with a ring.

you tested on what software ?

You tested on a real machine ? where you speak about it ? you must apply torque only a red point, ideally the torque must be applied a very short of time (function of the rotationnal velocity), this need sensors, precise electronic control, etc. You built a mortor like that ?

Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2014, 02:55:51 PM »
Trajectories can be like first image or like second image if w1 and w2 are choosen correctly (depends of the radius).


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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2014, 02:55:51 PM »
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Offline webby1

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2014, 04:31:40 PM »
me too... I don't find the formula in Internet but anyway it's works with a ring, and this idea can be use with a ring.

you tested on what software ?

You tested on a real machine ? where you speak about it ? you must apply torque only a red point, ideally the torque must be applied a very short of time (function of the rotationnal velocity), this need sensors, precise electronic control, etc. You built a mortor like that ?

Here is a thread with a similar concept.

http://www.overunity.com/13102/the-paradox-engine/

In this one I built a much simpler testbed that used an electric motor with a flywheel on it and had the case of the motor attached to the W1 point.  I removed most of the magnets from the motor so that I could index the drive force from the motor,, this is not the same as what you are doing but in other testbeds I was using the spinning flywheel to take power out of the system both by the induction process and by the rotation around the W1 point.

Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2014, 04:49:47 PM »
No, it's not the same principle. My idea is to use external objects (or something external like air), it's very important because your link shows a system "close" nothing external. Or something fixed to the ground that can recover energy. Here all the system turn no ? And like I said, it's not possible to give a torque like that. You must apply the torque when w1=w2, this in a short time, you need sensors and electronic command.


Offline webby1

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2014, 06:04:36 PM »
It is not the same but the testbeds I made and played with are.  The drive coil in that system is connected to the base and is providing a single point of influence,,

Where is the torque in your system if you apply an equal force in opposite directions on opposite sides of the disc?  There is only a torque and torque does not cause the axle to move when there is an equal force on both sides,, so it will only spin up the disc.

If your outside force is only from a single point, a single side, then there is a reaction that will both spin up the disc and cause the axle to move.

This arrangement can be used to spin up the disc and rotate around W1 as well as when the disc has some rotational value, that value of rotation of the disc can be used to rotate around W1 more.

I found that equal and opposite on opposite sides does not influence the axle to move,, hence no rotation around W1.

Offline EOW

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2014, 07:12:01 PM »
I don't understand your message, maybe if you drawn an image I can. Where are results of your tests and the model to test, have you image and link ?

Quote
Where is the torque in your system if you apply an equal force in opposite directions on opposite sides of the disc?
  look at image of post #16, there is a torque due to external object (that can be done with fixed and controlled coils). And look at trajectories of points with w1 and w2, it's not a point, it's a line, your coil must recover energy perpendiculary to the trajectory, like the shock with balls for example. It's not easy to build. I don't know your system and if I can watch what you do I can say if it's the same or not.

For my study, the trajectory must be good for have a torque, like image shows. Maybe it's not the best. Choose point at P1/P2 and adjust the mass of object to schock for have the same force (in value).

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Offline webby1

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2014, 08:44:53 PM »
You are pulling away from W1 at P2 and towards W1 at P1,, right??

Is this impulse just an instantaneous one or does it have a time of apply,, if so then there will be a shift in the points and the input must follow that shift,, not that that is a big thing just making sure that it is in fact an impulse,, so you could shoot a ball at the finger sticking out.

With P1 and P2 not equal and opposite in position relative to the disc and W2, then yes I have seen this arrangement provide an acceleration to the disc as well as that force of acceleration move the arm around W1.  This moment of acceleration of the disc around W1 only occurs while the disc at W2 is being accelerated or decelerated.  So an impulse hit to the tab, or finger,, will then pulse the arm to move around W1.

So if you had another arm at W1 that is 90 degrees to the arm W1-W2 and you used that arm as a mount to shoot a ball at the finger on the disc at W2,, and pull a ball,, then you could have a constant target trajectory.

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Re: Sum of torque
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2014, 08:44:53 PM »

 

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