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Author Topic: Spring Coupling  (Read 16852 times)

Offline vineet_kiran

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Spring Coupling
« on: July 23, 2014, 06:59:24 AM »
 
Will it work?

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Spring Coupling
« on: July 23, 2014, 06:59:24 AM »

Offline MarkE

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 08:22:12 AM »
It will turn the generator.  The generator still produces less energy than input to the motor.  The spring coupling at the end of the day is just a coupling.  It has no effect on the amount of energy it takes to turn the generator under load, nor the amount of energy that the motor draws in order to turn a given load.

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Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 10:11:51 AM »
It will turn the generator.  The generator still produces less energy than input to the motor.  The spring coupling at the end of the day is just a coupling.  It has no effect on the amount of energy it takes to turn the generator under load, nor the amount of energy that the motor draws in order to turn a given load.

 
What about mechanical advantage with same speed?  Where and why it will be lost?
Input power at the motor flange will be 2∏NT1 and output power at the generator flange will be 2∏NT2    and  T2 will be far more greater than T1 because of mechanical advantage. 
Since both are rotating at same speed the time of energy input and output also remain the same hence there should be a net gain in energy also.      Power, which is energy per second  also  gets  magnified.   
 

Offline MarkE

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 11:42:10 AM »

 
What about mechanical advantage with same speed?  Where and why it will be lost?
Input power at the motor flange will be 2∏NT1 and output power at the generator flange will be 2∏NT2    and  T2 will be far more greater than T1 because of mechanical advantage. 
Since both are rotating at same speed the time of energy input and output also remain the same hence there should be a net gain in energy also.      Power, which is energy per second  also  gets  magnified.   
The generator is less than 100% efficient.  The motor is less than 100% efficient.  The spring coupling is less than 100% efficient.  The only energy available to the generator is frm the motor through the spring coupling.  Storing up some energy in the spring by winding it up does nothing to produce energy, or improve efficiency. 


Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 05:41:53 PM »
The generator is less than 100% efficient.  The motor is less than 100% efficient.  The spring coupling is less than 100% efficient.  The only energy available to the generator is frm the motor through the spring coupling.  Storing up some energy in the spring by winding it up does nothing to produce energy, or improve efficiency.

 
You are totally mistaken. 
 
I am not using the energy of spring.  I am rotating a larger diameter pulley by a small diameter pulley with same speed to get mechanical  advantage ensuring that the mechanical advantage is not lost in time as in the case of normal pulley arrangement.
 
Efficency of generator or motor doesnot come into picture here at all.
 
 
 
 

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2014, 05:41:53 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2014, 06:45:22 PM »
1. EIN_MOTOR  > EOUT_MOTOR

2. EIN_SPRING = EOUT_MOTOR

ergo

3. EIN_MOTOR > EIN_SPRING



4. EIN_SPRING > EOUT_SPRING

ergo

5. EIN_MOTOR > EOUT_SPRING



6. EIN_GENERATOR = EOUT_SPRING

ergo

7. EIN_SPRING > EIN_GENERATOR, and

ergo

8. EIN_MOTOR > EIN_GENERATOR



9. EIN_GENERATOR > EOUT_GENERATOR 

ergo

10. EIN_SPRING > EOUT_GENERATOR, and

ergo

11. EIN_MOTOR > EOUT_GENERATOR.

QED.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 03:23:29 AM »
Pin at  motor  =  2πNT1   at smaller flange
Pin   at  generator  =  2πNT2   at  bigger  flange
T2  is  greater than  T1
Hence     Pin at generator  is  greater  than   Pin   at  the  motor
Hence  Pout from  generator  is greater  than Pin  at  motor.
Since  both flanges are rotating at same speed  energy is not lost in time.
 
Please  understand  the  concept.
 

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2014, 03:23:29 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2014, 03:39:07 AM »
Pin at  motor  =  2πNT1   at smaller flange
Pin   at  generator  =  2πNT2   at  bigger  flange
T2  is  greater than  T1
Hence     Pin at generator  is  greater  than   Pin   at  the  motor
Hence  Pout from  generator  is greater  than Pin  at  motor.
Since  both flanges are rotating at same speed  energy is not lost in time.
 
Please  understand  the  concept.
 
The concept does not work.  Springs don't make free energy.  The only energy that you can get at the output of a spring is energy that you transfer directly through it plus energy that the spring releases as it relaxes or less the energy that goes into the spring as it is tensed.  In a dynamic situation where the spring tenses and relaxes: the average energy added and subtracted by those two actions average to zero.  That means that your equations are wrong as the proof in my previous post showed, and your concept does not work.  The spring like any other coupling simply transfers the torque less losses between the two flange plates.  Contrary to your claims:  TGENERATOR is on average always less  than TMOTOR.  The average rotational velocities are the same.  PAVERAGE GENERATOR IN < PAVERAGE MOTOR OUT.

Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2014, 03:55:42 AM »
Bobby Amarasingham uses spring coupling on many of his new devices.

With an eccentric flywheel there is secondary oscillation.

Simulation does indeed show energy increase, but you need to translate this motion to a shaft, somehow, and it must be safe.

Never seen a video, in reality. Interresting concept of study.


Offline MarkE

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2014, 05:10:34 AM »
Bobby Amarasingham uses spring coupling on many of his new devices.

With an eccentric flywheel there is secondary oscillation.

Simulation does indeed show energy increase, but you need to translate this motion to a shaft, somehow, and it must be safe.

Never seen a video, in reality. Interresting concept of study.
To the best of my knowledge, Bobby Amarasingham has never been able to establish excess energy output versus input in any of his machines.  Mechanical oscillations move energy back and forth between kinetic energy maxima in moving mass and potential energy maxima in tensed springs.  Neither tensed spring nor moving mass have ever been shown to exhibit excess energy alone or in combination.

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2014, 05:10:34 AM »
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Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2014, 06:08:15 AM »
Since the subject was brought up.

Heres of Bobby's latest machine, can anyone guess its internal assembly ?

Think logically..

He calls it "Latest double action mechanical space energy harvesting machine all rights reserved by galaxel ltd"

Offline MarkE

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2014, 06:14:31 AM »
BA loves to make curious machines that shake and rattle furiously.  All that shaking makes it difficult to take clean direct torque and speed measurements at sufficient bandwidth, but it can be done.  The other option of course is to attempt to self-loop.


Offline ARMCORTEX

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 06:26:40 AM »
He who guesses this device will understand a very very good design for implementing springy energy resonance.

Probably the best springy device ever made.

I will not respond to this thread anymore.

Offline vineet_kiran

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2014, 07:16:35 AM »
The concept does not work.  Springs don't make free energy.  The only energy that you can get at the output of a spring is energy that you transfer directly through it plus energy that the spring releases as it relaxes or less the energy that goes into the spring as it is tensed.  In a dynamic situation where the spring tenses and relaxes: the average energy added and subtracted by those two actions average to zero.  That means that your equations are wrong as the proof in my previous post showed, and your concept does not work.  The spring like any other coupling simply transfers the torque less losses between the two flange plates.  Contrary to your claims:  TGENERATOR is on average always less  than TMOTOR.  The average rotational velocities are the same.  PAVERAGE GENERATOR IN < PAVERAGE MOTOR OUT.

 
Do you mean say that  concept  of mechanical  advantage  itself is wrong?   Then  why do you use  pulley  or gear  arrangements  to  switch  between  speed  and  torque?    What  happens  if   smaller  pulley / gear   rotates  a bigger pulley /  gear  with same speed?   (if  mechanical advantage  is not  lost)
I  know  very  well  that  storing  and  releasing  energy  in a spring  will  not yield any  excess energy.   But   I am  not  using  stored  energy.    Working  principle here  is based  on  mechanical advantage.
 
 

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Offline MarkE

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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 12:41:50 PM »

 
Do you mean say that  concept  of mechanical  advantage  itself is wrong?   Then  why do you use  pulley  or gear  arrangements  to  switch  between  speed  and  torque?    What  happens  if   smaller  pulley / gear   rotates  a bigger pulley /  gear  with same speed?   (if  mechanical advantage  is not  lost)
I  know  very  well  that  storing  and  releasing  energy  in a spring  will  not yield any  excess energy.   But   I am  not  using  stored  energy.    Working  principle here  is based  on  mechanical advantage.
 
 
These are very basic concepts that you can check out for yourself:

The product of force and distance moved on one side of a lever is, absent losses, the same as the product of force and distance on the other side of a lever. 

Coupling through different size pulleys, gears, etc, is just a rotary version of a lever.

I have already proven mathematically that your concept does not work as you claim.


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Re: Spring Coupling
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2014, 12:41:50 PM »

 

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