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Author Topic: A battery that lasts!  (Read 8158 times)

Offline minnie

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A battery that lasts!
« on: July 11, 2014, 12:08:44 AM »
Most of us have a huge amount of solar energy on our roofs etc. but are
unable to make good use of same.
 What is the feasibility of making a storage battery of say a cubic metre
or so that could provide a days supply (not heating) and would have a
lifetime of say 30 years (with appropriate maintenance ))

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

A battery that lasts!
« on: July 11, 2014, 12:08:44 AM »

Offline Madebymonkeys

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2014, 12:45:51 AM »
Most of us have a huge amount of solar energy on our roofs etc. but are
unable to make good use of same.
 What is the feasibility of making a storage battery of say a cubic metre
or so that could provide a days supply (not heating) and would have a
lifetime of say 30 years (with appropriate maintenance ))

Very feasible. Car batteries have been known to last that long.
Estimated cost sounds high when made from car batteries though. Probably much higher with a bespoke.

Around 100x car batteries at £100 each for a decent one: £10,000
Solar panels of sufficient size to charge 100 batteries in a day...£40,000? This is a guess but I suspect its on the low size!

As for a return on investment, some people may live long enough.

A better way to approach this is to base the question on kWH required and amount of money you wish to spend (very important). Also, whether you wish to recoup any of that money?

Everything is feasible (almost), but costs money. Would you be happy to pay much much more for electric for 25+ years or is buying it from a utility company a better choice to keep food on the table?
These are the questions to ask yourself :-)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline mscoffman

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2014, 12:52:22 AM »
Most of us have a huge amount of solar energy on our roofs etc. but are
unable to make good use of same.
 What is the feasibility of making a storage battery of say a cubic metre
or so that could provide a days supply (not heating) and would have a
lifetime of say 30 years (with appropriate maintenance ))


People are trying, but under auspices of the EV Electric Vehicle. Amazingly a car and a household requires about the same
battery bank size; about 25KWh. The house has a bit of an edge; There are no repeated mechanical stresses on the battery and
temperature regulation is easier. So the price is going to track EV battery prices and reliability...Which I think is just great. If you
draw a line around a Leaf vehicle's cab and make it one foot thick, that is the battery bank, now tilt it upright and put it
somewhere in the house where it won't be damaged. You have got it. Using an existing electrical front end and a used EV battery
this setup is doable today, except it needs a HV battery charger. This equipment isn't free but relative to the cost of the rest of
a house it is minimal.

Unfortunately one of the main manufactures of mechanical flywheels has gone on to try to supply 25KW flywheels to utilities,
and gone bankrupt in the process. This is what happens when you don't select the market for your product wisely..

And it seems to happen a lot. It's the "We can't seem to sell our Sirloin steak dinner to a starving man" syndrome.


:S:MarkSCoffman

Offline minnie

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2014, 07:36:40 PM »
   Been looking at university of California using sand to replace graphite in
lithium cells.
 Anyone know if this stands up theoretically?
             John.


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2014, 08:07:57 PM »
Car batteries are made to fail after a short period of time.

It is much better to build its own lead acid batteries which can be maintained.

You can use rooftop plumb lead foils to build the plates and use
sulfuric acid in silicic acid ( crystalline silica )
as the electrolyte and binder.

The only problem is to find the right cases for the batteries as you can not buy empty battery cases...

If anybody has a source for empty battery cases in Europe, please let me know.

Many thanks.

As the battery industry uses too thin lead plates, these fail very shortly after 2 or 3 years...
but if you use the thick rooftop plumb lead foils these hold much longer !

Regards, Stefan.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2014, 08:07:57 PM »
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Offline Madebymonkeys

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2014, 11:34:59 PM »
   Been looking at university of California using sand to replace graphite in
lithium cells.
 Anyone know if this stands up theoretically?
             John.

I suspect it does, the researchers aren't daft. It's only replacing the graphite anode though.
The batts are still full of nasty stuff and likely to still be pricey.
As for making a three fold increase in batt life in a cellphone, I see a reduction in cellphone thickness more likely :-)

Give the tech a few years!

Offline Madebymonkeys

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2014, 11:39:49 PM »
Car batteries are made to fail after a short period of time.

It is much better to build its own lead acid batteries which can be maintained.

You can use rooftop plumb lead foils to build the plates and use
sulfuric acid in silicic acid ( crystalline silica )
as the electrolyte and binder.

The only problem is to find the right cases for the batteries as you can not buy empty battery cases...

If anybody has a source for empty battery cases in Europe, please let me know.

Many thanks.

As the battery industry uses too thin lead plates, these fail very shortly after 2 or 3 years...
but if you use the thick rooftop plumb lead foils these hold much longer !

Regards, Stefan.

Wow, I have never heard of anyone of my friends having to replace a car battery even after many many years!
Most branded car batteries have a 5 year guarantee. This typically means they will outlast this timeframe by some margin....otherwise the company would go bankrupt, right.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2014, 11:39:49 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline mscoffman

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2014, 11:53:06 PM »

Stephen,

What I would do is build one of these 2V acid/lead cells which could be coupled together via heavy gauge cable wires. Once you determine
the case volume I think I would buy a similar battery from Trojan or Rolls Surrette to help determine the details how many plates,
spacing, area, bottom supports etc.  What I would probably do is to throw the tops out after making a 3d printer design that uses those
existing HO catalytic filler tops could screw into and two battery terminal treatments. If you are molding the plates from liquid lead
you may want to consider a fully covered tinned copper wire to decrease cell resistance.

Here is a 2V case;

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Lead-Acid-Battery-Case_638043050.html

There are other cases from this supplier if you want different. You may want to ask an operator for assistance in finding similar
items since searching for words just confuses things.

Offline mscoffman

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2014, 12:22:56 AM »
Wow, I have never heard of anyone of my friends having to replace a car battery even after many many years!
Most branded car batteries have a 5 year guarantee. This typically means they will outlast this timeframe by some margin....otherwise the company would go bankrupt, right.

You live in SoCal or Florida right? You really can not exchange the use of these two different types of batteries. Battery designs
are amazingly unstable between existing companies. You have never left your headlamps on on an older battery and then have
to replace this used car battery a month later? You need to be careful because even a new auto battery is only rated for eight such
deep cycle events! For electronics batteries are rated at so many Ah Ampere Hours, Vehicle starting batteries are rated in CCA
cold cranking amps instead. I've just completed a one year study of acid/lead batteries so if you have any questions let me know.
The interesting thing is that lead metal is a commodity, so battery price is a poor indicator of battery quality! There are a number of
specialty auto batteries coming on line, these are very high price though.


:S:MarkSCoffman
 

Offline minnie

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2014, 12:34:34 AM »



 The storage battery sure is a marvellous device compared to say an air receiver or
super cap. The voltage of a good battery holds up until  the thing is virtually empty.
  The big snag is with every charge the capacity drops, albeit a small amount.
 There is research going on with quinones which could do away with the toxic metals.
I realise it's unproven so far but the flow battery seems quite a good idea to me, I
don't know much about these things, it may be totally inappropriate. I had the idea
that a flow battery may be able to be rejuvenated whereas a solid plate battery needs
totally recycling.
               John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2014, 12:34:34 AM »
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Offline Doug1

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2014, 01:30:39 PM »
Why not try to make a Edison battery using plastic buckets. The nickel flake material is the hardest part to obtain with out ending up on a watch list. No reason it couldn't be electroplated from a larger sample piece. Edison batteries last for ever as long as you dont crush them and take more abuse then any battery made to date.
 His patents are available. there is a company I think in china that makes a knock off version with a plastic housing but the prices are extreme and shipping is high.
 

Offline mscoffman

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2014, 11:59:09 PM »
Why not try to make a Edison battery using plastic buckets. The nickel flake material is the hardest part to obtain with out ending up on a watch list. No reason it couldn't be electroplated from a larger sample piece. Edison batteries last for ever as long as you dont crush them and take more abuse then any battery made to date.
 His patents are available. there is a company I think in china that makes a knock off version with a plastic housing but the prices are extreme and shipping is high.
 


Check out:   edison iron/KOH batteries Web link;


http://www.ironedison.com/


A proud product of China.  Unfortunately these cost the same as acid/lead cells but have only a 1.65VDC standing voltage.
You may want to peruse the actual specification sheets. It doesn't say the same thing as the stories, These still have deep
cycle count limitations that while they are an order of magnitude better than acid lead batteries are still finite.


:S:MarkSCoffman
 


Offline Madebymonkeys

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2014, 01:17:38 AM »
You live in SoCal or Florida right? You really can not exchange the use of these two different types of batteries. Battery designs
are amazingly unstable between existing companies. You have never left your headlamps on on an older battery and then have
to replace this used car battery a month later? You need to be careful because even a new auto battery is only rated for eight such
deep cycle events! For electronics batteries are rated at so many Ah Ampere Hours, Vehicle starting batteries are rated in CCA
cold cranking amps instead. I've just completed a one year study of acid/lead batteries so if you have any questions let me know.
The interesting thing is that lead metal is a commodity, so battery price is a poor indicator of battery quality! There are a number of
specialty auto batteries coming on line, these are very high price though.


:S:MarkSCoffman
I'm in the UK and our cars (some at least!) turn the headlights off if you forget :-)
The temp over here may help to prolong the life of the batts since it's mostly cold :-(
My comment was more in response to the comment about them being "made to fail" within 2 years, they aren't. They could be badly abused outside of their recommended operating conditions and ultimately fail, they aren't designed to fail in two years though. If they were then the manufacturers should shoot their designers as I have a sample size of about 50 people who haven't replaced a car battery ever!

I guess the OP is talking about a deep discharge scenario so car batteries may not be the right thing.
What would your study suggest the OP use, and could you estimate (if we get power requirements) the cost of such a battery?

Offline truesearch

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2014, 04:31:57 PM »
What I would like to see is an "alum-air" battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium%E2%80%93air_battery) that is a DIY project. If the info on the wiki page is anywhere near correct, you could make an electric vehicle (car, airplane, boat, ??) that would need new batteries every 1,000 miles or so. . . ?


And yes, I know that "alum-air" batteries can't simply be recharge and have to be "rebuilt" but the longevity would make for a very practical product life, right??



truesearch

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline mscoffman

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Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2014, 06:02:27 PM »
That is very interesting information about British Vehicle Batteries. I'd be willing
to bet money that there is some kind of GB government mandate insisting on
deeper discharge cycle life for batteries in British vehicles, possibly stemming
from WWII. I will keep an eye out for the reason and post under this subject
here if I find out.  I know I looked at using a Hawker Sidley Battery called "Deep
Strart" Batteries kind of a mixture of deep cycle and starting. These certainly can
exist. So that is suggestive. I think Stephen was referering to 2 years in an
average solar or other electronic application. I also think the auto batteries track
an average 7 year car life pretty well.


I am continually suprised at how South Africa  internet .za web sites mention
.us battery supliers. I suspect it is due to their mining intensive economies
use of equipment batteries that is what requires this.


You have to get above 55Ah Ampere Hour before batteries "differentiate"
into type for various uses. Those grey Gell Cell and Plain Black Ultimate Batteries
are smaller capacity than 55Ah and I've found them uniformly terrible.
Batteries Recommened are often Golf Cart Batteries because they can take
physcial and charging abuse.


Schedule some time and play with the following Web Site;   prices are in AUD$
Click on battery type numbers to display battery specs. I don't
necessarily advise buying from here - but I like the icons for educational
purposes note that down the list the "Start" icon eventually goes away.


http://www.federalbatteries.com.au/batteries/


To find the Specification Sheet of batteries go to the Web Sites and download the .pdf files.
Company: *Trojan* - High Quality Highest Specialty  Battery Supplier, You probable use them.


http://www.trojanbattery.com/


Company: *Rolls Surrete* -  Highest Quality Batteries - You'll Use these if you have got a little more
                              money  -


http://www.rollsbattery.com/
                               They have the widest Range of 2Volt lead/acid cells capacities. They build
                               acid/lead batteries for military submarines.


I found a battery that is a deepcycle (marine trolling battery) that has a price and capacity
similar to a automotive battery  US battery  part#: 27dcxc 12V 85Ah $140.00USD
Selected this mainly because it was lighter then the large trojan battery.


Use Google to find these web sites. Then use Google again with the test "for sale" to
find prices.


Outliers Batteries to study:


Company:  Optima Blue Top - Extremely low resistance and very high recharge rates. Custom chargers.


Company: Chinese  Crystal  Beta   Battery - a better lead/acid battery  There's one UK
supplier (of UPS equipment) (No suppliers at all in US!) If these are not fakes they are the
best batteries to use. See youtube.com for a person running a test of this battery vs
a starting. He says he sees a reduction in capacity with only 4! abusive deep cycle
discaharges in the starting battery.
 
Company: "X" Extreme 6000 Ampere. For mixed supercapacitor type applications super specifications
and is super expensive.     


-> You will find that battery costs are proportional to the amount of lead metal they
contain big batteries are heavy! from 200->300LBS. Must consider shipping cost.


For example the best deal on a Trojan Deep Cycle 12Volt @ 240Ah battery was $236.00USD
this battery is like 3 to 5 times the Ah capacity of an automotive battery. This was like
220LBS weight.

---

Select 12VDC, 24VDC, 36VDC, 48VDC your LV solar batter bank voltage. The higher the voltage
the lower the max current. I'd start at 24VDC because there are chargers and inverters for
24Volts. That would put 2  x 12Volt batteries in series everywhere. I got like $7000 USD
for a minimum acid/lead set-up, to not abuse the batteries due to discharge depth you
will need 2 or 3 times this and 3 times is too expensive.  Same HV lithium battery is like
$5000 with EV wearout curves.
 
:S:MarkSCoffman

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A battery that lasts!
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2014, 06:02:27 PM »

 

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