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Author Topic: KARPEN PILE  (Read 115326 times)

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2014, 03:41:58 PM »
Or better yet.do you have any palladium chloride lying around mr pomodoro.plate a platinum foil with palladium black and then you will surge the power density even higher(1-10milliamp/cm2).leave the puny oxygen cells and focus on the potent hydrogen cells.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #75 on: July 01, 2014, 03:41:58 PM »

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #76 on: July 01, 2014, 05:52:54 PM »
What would combust H2 gas under an atmosphere of pure H2 gas mr pomodoro? Purge the system. You will get much more power density in the H2 system and make it easier to rule out chemical corrosion of the Pt(-) anode.we want to get catalytic hydrogen spillover(google) to power the cell Pt/Ag/NaOH or easier Pt/graphite/NaOH permanently.

Dear Profitis,  as I mentioned before, I would like to concentrate on the original Au/Pt pile for now as the concept of a current being generated between  two non reacting metals in an 'inert' electrolyte is amusing.
 Now the fact that you understood the word oxidize as the combustion of hydrogen is  rather worrying to say the least.  In fact the cell you describe looks to me like a discharged form of the popular zinc/silver oxide cell.  In your version zinc is replaced by platinum. The silver electrode would normally be silver oxide in a charged cell, which becomes ,as you have, silver when discharged.  However, any slight film of oxide or any other reducible silver film will still be able to be  reduced.
The hydrogen gas you introduced will adsorb easily on the  platinum to make the classical H2/Pt half cell seen in all the text books. Hydrogen gas will be oxidized to H+  (instead of Zinc to Zn 2+ in a standard Zn/Ag2O cell) as any silver oxide or similar silver compound gets reduced.
Sorry butI just cant see anything special here.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2014, 06:18:26 PM »
Mr pomodoro mr pomodoro...the oxygen catalytic spillover cells are of no commercial interest or scientific value,you saw for yourself the 70year debate still unresolved they are a waste of time.we are begging you to build for us a high-powered hydrogen spillover device that will give permanent power bursts in the milliamp range.you will set this thread on fire if you can do this one favour please (-:. Leave the palladized platinum/Ag under H2 for a day to chemically reduce any surface metal oxides on the silver then pipe in more fresh H2 then seal off totaly.this will totaly rule out any chemical COMBUSTION of H2(I love the word combustion).

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #78 on: July 01, 2014, 07:20:17 PM »
@pomodoro you can also attatch a small piece of aluminum foil to both the Pd and Ag when you plunge them into the NaOH to ensure total saturation with H2 and total reduction of surface oxides WHILE piping in a stream of H2.the aluminum will dissolve completely in caustic soda in a matter of 30mins or so.you will see H2 bubbles stream off both electrodes ensuring total reduction of oxides.I'm asking you to build a fuel cell with no oxygen or oxidizers present.


Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2014, 05:23:16 AM »
Let me admit from the start that I don't as yet know of these cells and how special they are supposed to be.  Perhaps a good brief  link with at least a little sound science would be beneficial, but yes , if there is nothing that would reduce  with a favorable delta H on the silver or in solution and there are bursts of mAs then I would find that  interesting. However the 'free energy' aspect of this cell to me is lost since hydrogen is sure  to be reduced at the Pd/Pt  anode; the cell is using a fuel which we need to manufacture. Or, is this cell supposed to decompose water at both electrodes, somehow sapping heat from water?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #79 on: July 02, 2014, 05:23:16 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #80 on: July 02, 2014, 06:01:30 AM »
@pomodoro you can also attatch a small piece of aluminum foil to both the Pd and Ag when you plunge them into the NaOH to ensure total saturation with H2 and total reduction of surface oxides WHILE piping in a stream of H2.the aluminum will dissolve completely in caustic soda in a matter of 30mins or so.you will see H2 bubbles stream off both electrodes ensuring total reduction of oxides.I'm asking you to build a fuel cell with no oxygen or oxidizers present.
You are going to oxidize Al with water and you claim that no oxidizers are present???

2 Al + 3 H2O =>  3 H2 + 1 Al2O3

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2014, 08:56:06 AM »
@pomodoro it is powered by HYDROGEN SPILLOVER straight from the textbooks my friend.please google.anode:H2 > 2 H(atomic)>2 H+ +2 e. Cathode:2H+ +2 e >2 H(atomic)>H2 in acids and in bases anode: H2>2H + 2OH- > 2H2O + 2e cathode: 2H2O + 2e- > 2OH- + 2H> H2
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 05:56:39 PM by profitis »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #81 on: July 02, 2014, 08:56:06 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #82 on: July 02, 2014, 09:00:27 AM »
@markE. The only thing in the cell is pure hydrogen,palladium,silver,caustic soda soln.there are no oxidizers present.aluminum dissloves in seconds,if needed.

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #83 on: July 02, 2014, 11:15:12 AM »
@sarkeizen google is saturated with hydrogen spillover,all based on same principal: ficks law of diffusion

Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2014, 12:12:35 PM »
Umm I'm not convinced it will run without using up the hydrogen but it shouldn't be too hard to make a tiny version and see how long it supplies current vs a rough estimate of how much h2 was introduced. So what exactly is required? I have pure Ag foil ,plain Pt foil 1.5cm sq but no Pd. I could possibly plate the Pt with Pd but need to check my chemicals. What molarity NaOH and what current   + open voltage are expected. Is the output to be taken continuously or pulsed when voltage recovers?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #84 on: July 02, 2014, 12:12:35 PM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #85 on: July 02, 2014, 01:45:57 PM »
@pomodoro let's look at the big picture: if you seal it properly or just continously stream in hydrogen through a valve what can burn the H2.nothing.zilch.zero. Only textbook catalyst spillover will take place.you said you have already got platinized platinum,thats a good start and will do instead of palladium.make sure that it is pitch black for maximum surface area.take your silver foil and a carbon rod and anodize your silver for a few seconds in NaOH soln to blacken it with Ag2O surface then cathodize it back to Ag  until you see H2 bubbles stream.the Ag foil will now have massive surface area and will be grey in colour. Use silver or gold wire on both Pt and Ag as leads out of your spillover device bulb as these metals do not leak H2.you may use copper wire on both for this test  but use it thin and try not to get it wet during the final measurements.I'm not sure wether your Pt electrode is naked or encased in glass in which case you will have to stopcock seal adequetly using silicone grease.you cannot afford to have the slightest leak-hole otherwise air gets into our test device. Its highly advantageous if your lab has bottled H2 at hand as opposed to the effort of making your own H2.your Pt should just touch the electrolyte as it must have exposure to H2 and your Ag should be half or fully submerged.use 0.5 to 1M NaOH.

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #86 on: July 02, 2014, 02:06:44 PM »
Current should be in the 300micro-2milliamp(or more?) range for a square cm heavily platinized Pt and treated Ag under pure H2. It will be 0.3-0.5 volt at total rest.it will give a quick burst of charge everytime you short it and after the first few bursts it will reach its steady power value which will be its permanent capacity provided no air gets in there.discharge it for a second,allow a few seconds for recharge.discharge it for a minute,allow a few minutes for recharge.its like a self-charging redox cap.


Offline pomodoro

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #87 on: July 03, 2014, 03:44:29 AM »
Ok, after the karpen I shall have a look at this sealed hydrogen cell. Please lets focus on Karpen for now and start another thread later on the hydrogen spillover cell.

Back to Karpen and standard electrochem, I have decided to individually test each electrode in 1M Sulfuric acid, in oxygenated and deoxyenated enviroments. 

Anodic and cathodic scans will be run about Ecorr just as is done for any corrosion tests.
Initially other metals known to corrode such as Iron and Copper will be tested and the plots compared to the gold and platinum.  These Tafel plots will be used in an Evans diagram to show  the effect of coupling the Pt to the Au.   
The first question I want answered is 'do any of these noble metals actually corrode?' the anodic scan could provide answers. As the metal is forced more positive, and if the  current does increase, the electrons must come from some oxidation reaction at the electrode.  If the voltage is kept below the oxidation of water to oxygen, then electrons can only be created by the oxidation of the metal.

Does anyone disagree with this, and if so, why exactly?

Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #88 on: July 03, 2014, 12:32:35 PM »
If we can accomplish something with the hydrogen bomb then this thread and even website takes on a historical event @pomodoro.we will be the first live internet interactive to slamdunk a macroscopic 2lot violation,if you can get hold of palladium chloride we can take this thing into the 2-10 milliamp/cm2 range.your enrique fermi and I'm oppenheimer lol. Ok.. let's slamdunk the smallfry first..an underpotential on Au or Pt foil is going to liberate oxygen gas yes because polarization builds up from infinite nernst dilution of oxygen gas/cm2 on your electrodes up til full saturation of O2 coverage/cm2. So that is no way to look for corrosion which is why I'm suggesting speeding up corrosion on a Pt/Au linked couple by boiling.both Au and Pt are used in the most highly sensitive O2sensors and if corrosion current was an issue for example in seawater then these highly sensitive instruments would have no value for O2 potential calibration.

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Offline profitis

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Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2014, 12:38:18 PM »
I want to suggest throwing the gold away and using TWO Pt foils for the present microamp range oxygen karpen tests @pomodoro,what do you say...karpen used identical electrodes in figure 2 from his patent application.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: KARPEN PILE
« Reply #89 on: July 03, 2014, 12:38:18 PM »

 

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